Spiral Knights - Neutralizer vs Biohazard

Neutralizer vs Biohazard

8 replies [Last post]

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 18:43

Bossbane

Heya there! Styrka here.

So after I stopped crying about getting robbed on a UV, I have come to terms that I'll probably make one again considering just how much crafting I make. If you've no idea what I'm talking about, that's perfectly fine.

What the topic is here is, quite simply, whether a Neutralizer or Biohazard is better. I adore the play style of sticking an enemy with a charge and then glueing them together with a Vortex bomb!! But, is it better to have pure shadow damage and a good chance to poison and languish against devilites and greavers (Shudder) Or simply take the (Slightly less powerful?) Neutralizer?

Thanks for the input and I'd love to go dungeoning with you sometime,

-Styrka

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 19:49

Etharaes

Neutralizer is better for a hipster

The biohazard and the neutraliser have the same base damage vs neutral creatures, and the defence debuff from the bio's poison is hardly noticeable. You will never be able to consistently (read: achieve more than once) tag gremlins with charges and detonate them, unless you sticky the whole crowd. Scorchers and knockers are the exception, but knockers are so weak that a neutra can take them down just as efficiently.

People get the catalyzer lines for the playstyle, and if you choose the biohazard you limit how much it's used by quite a bit. So unless you have a pet hate for jellies, get the neutraliser.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 20:25

Tenkii

wait a second

Neutralizer's charge damage is actually stronger than Biohazard's neutral damage. Biohazard's charge only does more damage vs Neutralizer when either:
- vs a shadow enemy
- after poison effect.

For PVE purposes, Neutralizer might get the most use in T3 for the vortex+catalyzer combo on groups of say... zombies. On d24 with max damage, Neutralizer does 500 damage per charge. It's slightly weaker than two Nova Driver shots, but is respectable when dealing with like 4+ monsters swimming in a vortex.

If you're one of those crazy people who dare use a catalyzer in lockdown PVP, Biohazard is better because of shadow damage/poison on normal shots, and because of the fact that charge is buggy/broken in lockdown. (After many tests, it seems that even without invincibility frames, it only does 0-1.5 damage in comparison to a normal shot, which can do 3-5 pips of damage).

Sun, 01/27/2013 - 05:53

Batabii

I love biohazard because the

I love biohazard because the poison, while not normally a big deal, can totally shut down menders and the like. Plus it's shadow, so two charges will kill pretty much any gremlin mender before they can put up a shield.

Mon, 01/28/2013 - 18:06

Windsickle

So I'm crazy now am I Seiran?

I would recommend the Biohazard branch if you want a slow but reliable way of dealing with Gremlins (though it will take some practice, again, as Etharaes knows) as well as Slimes (particularly useful with Royal Jelly). Being weak against Undead and Fiends I would argue, is a minor weakness as the slow combat style is not preferable anyways against nearly all creatures of those families (for various reasons), the exception being the slow, swarming, zombie-types and Howlitzers. Even with Silkwings about, the Poison may oftentimes be enough to out-damage the Silkwing healing rate.

If you want a catalyzer simply for the mechanics for whatever reason you have, the Neutralizer branch is probably the better choice for, as Etharaes said, you'll be able to use it in a greater number of places because of its Normal Damage. Concerning my before-mentioned argument on Shadow Damage being a minor disadvantage, the Neutralizer branch may of yet be of use to you against opponents such as Devilites, Greavers, and Kats (maybe even Phantoms?) if you can reliably and consistently lock them down with vortex-type/crowd-control bombs and statuses though I cannot say for certain due to my personal lack of knowledge on that combat style.

With regards to the Coliseum, I once again recommend the Biohazard branch simply for the Shadow Damage, for, as Seiran can attest to, the detonation charge mechanics seem to be broken there, and thus practically defeating whatever point there would be in choosing catalyzers for their mechanics.

-Windsickle

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 11:25

Bella-Donna

boop

My view on better:

Which is better?
In a game where you can get any gear you want, and have no permanent choice of one over the other. BOTH! There is nothing stopping you from getting both weapons unless your a UV hunter and have to have the best uvs.

Biohazard:
Shadow damage: Great against slimes and gremlins good against constructs and wolvers, and poor against undead and fiends.
Status Effect: Posion! stops the healing process and gives additional hurt! Lovely when there is a gremlin mender about!

Neutrilizer:
Normal Damage: good against all monsters
Status Effect: none

Fiends are dodgy and due to catalyzer line's poor speed of fire, you probably won't hit them, so remove them from the argument.
Wolvers at tier 3 can teleport when guns are fried so remove them also from the argument.

That leaves you with gremlins, slimes, constructs and undead. Biohazard is better against two of the four remaining classes and only worse at one. Also the bombs push enemies so undead, which usually have a totem about could be pushed into the totem's range and become an annoyance. Gremlins with shields guard equally against both weapons but the explosions still damage nearby enemies making it worth while and slimes are the easiest to corral into a small area and let out a huge chain of explosions.

I went with biohazard for the poison, stayed for the shadow.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 12:33

Etharaes

@Bella-Donna

You are skewing your argument. Fiends and Gremlins are just as dodgy as each other. You may be able to tag knockers, but you can also tag greavers (if you have the guts to try).

How about we break down which creatures you can use them on into the actual monsters, shall we?
X = Can't be used for either, B = Bonus for biohazard, BN = No difference between biohazard and neutraliser, N = Penalty for biohazard.

Wolvers: Teleports like crazy. X
Chromalisks: Jumps around a bit, but hardly a challenge. BN
Gun Puppies: Stationary targets. BN
Lumbers: Slow moving and predictable. BN
Mecha Knight: Shield blocks both normal bullets and charge bullets. X
Retrode: Slow moving, predictable movement. BN
Scuttlebot: Derpier than chromalisks. BN
Devilites: Dodges like crazy. X
Greavers: Can be tagged if quick enough: N
Trojan: Charge gets messed up by shield. X
Silkwing: Predictable movement, but small hitbox. N
Thwackers: Dodges like crazy, shield messes with charge. X
Mender: Dodges like crazy, but can be tagged while it's trying to heal. B
Scorcher: Slow moving, easy to tag with charges. B
Knockers: Like silkwings. B
Mortafire: Random movement, shield messes with charge. X
Ghostmane Stalkers: Moves fast, goes invisible, hard to tag with charges. X
Jellies: Predictable movement, large hitbox. B
Lichens: Predictable movement. B
Polyps: Stationary target. B
Howlitzer: Stationary target. N
Kat: Dodgy and irritating. X
Phantom: Easy to tag. N
Zombies: Predictable movement, easy to tag. N
Almirian Crusader: Shield messes up charge. X
Deadnought: Shield messes things up. X

Now lets tally things up. Every B is a point for biohazard, every N is a point for neutraliser.
Biohazard: 11
Neutraliser: 10

So biohazard has a slight edge when it comes to effectiveness. However, any enemy that biohazard can be used on, neutralise can be used on. One other point is that biohazard isn't very good when it comes to FSC, though that doesn't matter to everyone.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 14:40

Bella-Donna

boop

of course my view will be skewed, i have a preference.

Though I would like to say for twackers, they face you meaning they can take damage readily from the noncharge attack and the charge attacks can still deal worthwile damage *i took a biohazard to OCH and it worked out better than my sentenza*

You can easily get a group of twackers together in a deconstruction zone and even if the charge doesn't deal damage to it, you can still deal damage to the ones around it.

Also ghost mane stalkers are easy to tag once they drop there cloak and when they cloak again the tag floats around them showing where they are. Have you tried using a catalyzer on them? they become easy to track once tagged even if you just tag and switch to a sword you can tell where they are by the tag.

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:08

Dragonuity

I regret getting my

I regret getting my neutralizer sooo much. Definently Biohazard, it actually has a use against slimes.

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Neutralizer vs Biohazard