Spiral Knights - Zopy's Gun Concerns: Bugs and imbalances

Zopy's Gun Concerns: Bugs and imbalances

7 replies [Last post]

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 01:26

Zopyros-Il

Has anyone else noticed something odd with a few of the guns? I've noticed a few things that are rather... worrisome about the states of some of our ranged weaponry. I know every weapon could honestly do with a little work, but since guns are what my playstyle revolves around, they're the thing that I have the most experience talking about.
If Knights from the other fields of weaponry have found some bugs or anything else of note, I could turn this into an all around weapon bug fix list of some sort.

Bugs
NOTE: Some of these may just be odd quirks of the weapons that I was unaware of. If so, let me know and I'll remove it post-haste!

- 4*Blackhawk has reduced range compared to the 4*Silversix.
Something odd that I noticed while I was leveling up both revolvers. The Blackhawk's bullets end a whole block shorter than the Silversix. When they're leveled up to 5* they both have the same range. A fellow gunner said that this is a known bug, but bringing attention to it may lead to it getting fixed.

- Antigua line charge attack collides with blocks behind the Knight firing.
This is a tremendous annoyance to me and I think I understand why it happens. The charge shot projectile is significantly larger than the other shots and collides with blocks on the side, but since the game generates the shot from exactly where the Knight is standing instead of in front, it also collides with blocks behind the Knight as well.

- Bullets colliding with target, but with no effect.
I've noticed this both with blocks and enemies. I've often shot at blocks, minerals, and enemies that are standing in the middle of an empty room, see the bullet collide, but not have the target take any damage. Usually for blocks this occurs when I graze the corner with a shot, so maybe the bullet collides but the damage registers in the block next to it? It also tends to happen when enemies are dashing towards me. Sometimes they'll take the damage, other times the bullets would collide and nothing would happen.
This one is probably due to lag, but it still seems a bit odd to me...

- Ghost bullets?
Sometimes when I rapid fire with weapons, there's the occasional extra shot that comes from the gun. This extra bullet does absolutely nothing, but it still gets really confusing sometimes. I sometimes have to ask myself whether I just fired six shots or five...
This is probably another lag problem.

- 4* and 5* Autogun variants are missing two bullets?
I honestly can't tell if this was a modeling error or intentional, but there's two bullets/needles missing from the ammo drum of the higher level Autoguns. Probably intentional...?

Imbalances
NOTE: This is mostly going to be opinion about some of the weapons. Granted, some of these qualms are felt community-wide, so maybe a few of these are more than opinion...

- Autogun lines' potential damage output is too high.
This is something that's been discussed a lot here on the forums, especially concerning the Blitz Needle. The individual bullets damage output seems to be fine, especially against the more speedy targets of the game. However, point it at a nigh-immobile target and the potential damage just goes through the roof! Compared to all the other gun lines that I've used so far, nothing comes even close to causing as much damage.
And another thing about the Autogun lines...

- Autogun lines have more range than most other guns.
I find this to be absolutely ridiculous, but the range on the Autoguns trumps that of every other gun. I haven't tested them all yet, but the Autoguns reach a good one or two blocks further than most guns in my arsenal. This is especially disconcerting considering that this line is supposed to be designed for short range. If anything deserves range like that it's the Magnus line.

- Iron Slug needs work
Nick has said that he is working on getting this gun buffed, but even just a damage increase or the ability to Stun would be a huge help to getting this gun on par with some of the others.

- Pulsar line explosions block view and lag game
Need some verification on that second claim, but considering the detail of the explosions and how often the can be spewed about, I think it holds some truth in it. Otherwise, the explosions are so ludicrously flashy it's hard to see what you're aiming at if someone else in the party is spamming this thing. Then there's the added danger factor of the enemies being thrown about...

- Catalyzers
Poor things really need some love. Their damage output and speed is low. Their charge attack, while unique, is a bit lack luster in terms of power. There's been some decent suggestions floating around with various ways to make it a more useful gun, such as the explosive charge attack can break through defenses and things like that.
Honestly, I'm working on making one just because I haven't seen a single one in-game during my entire time playing. Plus someone needs to fill in the wiki pages for it...

**********

I have a few more things that I want to add, but it's getting pretty late and I have classes tomorrow. Feel free to tell me your own bugs that you've found or your own thoughts on imbalances in the weapons. If I get the time, I'll try and consolidate them all into the OP.

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 04:19

Hexzyle

Definitely agree with you on the Autogun range. Pepperbox's range seems about reasonable. The needles range (and damage) is rediculous.
A Strike Needle (4*) does 51 and 161 on regular attack and charge, respectively, on neutral targets in depth 26.
The Volcanic Pepperbox (5*) does 45 and 110 on neutral targets in the same depth. (dafuq?)

How can a 4 star weapon be dealing more damage than a 5 star? And the Strike's charge deals over 3 times more than its normal attack, while Pepperbox barely scrapes 2.5.
Ok, let's take into account that the pepperbox deals fire, and assume that damage reduction for adding a status is approximately 20%.
That means the Volcanic Pepperbox would do 56 and 137. Still gets screwed over by the 4* Strike Needle...

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 06:16

Quakeman

needle guns are fine like

needle guns are fine like they are , like every other weapons, if it dont deal any status , its compensated with a damage boost (see plague needle who cant even 1 hit a trojan)

your affirmations about the pepperbox and strike is the heat level .. a strike needle cant 1 hit kill trojan before its level 10.

and an max heated weapon is stronger than his non heated next star level

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 06:39

Hexzyle

@Quakeman

"needle guns are fine like they are , like every other weapons, if it dont deal any status , its compensated with a damage boost (see plague needle who cant even 1 hit a trojan)"

You clearly haven't used the Blitz Needle, Plague Needle, and Volcanic Pepperbox yet...
So your saying that since Blitz Needle doesnt deal a status, it's okay if it not only fires nearly 50% further on charge, but deals 173% the damage of a Volcanic Pepperbox against neutral enemies, and 247% times the damage against weak enemies? Yeah that sounds fine. #sarcasm.

"your affirmations about the pepperbox and strike is the heat level .. a strike needle cant 1 hit kill trojan before its level 10.
and an max heated weapon is stronger than his non heated next star level"

Both the 4 star Strike Needle and the 5 star Volcanic Pepperbox were level 10. Heat has nothing to do with the fact that the needles are overpowered. I'm not stupid.

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 12:55

Poopsie

...

- Antigua line charge attack collides with blocks behind the Knight firing.
Behaves the same thing just like divine avenger and gran faust charge attack. Not sure if it's needed to get fix.

- Bullets colliding with the target, but no effect.
- Ghost bullets?
Probably, I could explain these, however I am not sure if it is intended or bug. When you are at roarmulus twin place, you'll probably notice when your friend is shielding the rocket, it explodes and hurt anyone near him. Guns behaves the same thing. Bullets hit the target, then create explosion. It's the bullet explosion that hurts, not the bullet itself. You can see guns as mini bombs. And you take advantage this behavior by shooting right in the middle of two near monsters to get double damage. However, if you shoot a monster that being knock backed, the bullets explode but the monster is already far away from the explosion, hence it does no damage. Sometimes you could notice whenever you aim the trojan with blitz needle but someone knockback it away from your bullet burst, hence you can't one hit them.

- Autogun lines' potential damage output is too high.
I think the most unnecessary update for blitz needle would be 10% damage boost for gun and bombs combined with 20% damage boost for charge. I don't remember the exact date for the changelog. Which weapon benefit the most? Definitely, blitz needle. As it can spew out 15 bullets per charge, the boost would make blitz 110% * 120% = 132%. Each bullets on charge gains 32% boost damage. This update makes the damage from 214 (not exactly remember) to 289 to Vana. Meanwhile the other guns, like alchemer, only can spew out 1 bullets per charge, then it splits up into 4 normal bullets which do not get 20% bonus.

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 14:35

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

@Hexzyle
My Vog, I didn't know the difference between the two was so drastic! I knew the Pepperbox was weaker, but not to that extent. Thanks for the info!

@Quakeman
The Autoguns are fine from a technical standpoint, what with their reduced damage per bullet and further reduced for the status variants. BUT. In the field, their damage output far exceeds other guns, especially the Magnus line which is another gun line whose drawback is that you have to stand still, simply due to the sheer number of bullets it fires. It gets even more messed up when looking at Hex's percentages comparing the other guns in the same line.
Seerusly. My new 4* Strike Needle at heat 1 can put out more damage than my 5* Argent Peacemaker at heat 10, and that's ridiculous. Then there's the range thing as well...
And the whole stand-still drawback is easily overcome with proper experience, so it become that its only drawback is that it has to reload.

@Poopsie
Ah, I understood the gun mechanics but I never connected those dots before. Thanks for shedding some light on the subject! Still it's pretty weird that it also happens on immobile targets like the minerals and destructible blocks...
Though since this is the case with that problem, I'm not sure if it's something that could be fixed unless they switch the guns to do direct, instant damage and not the explosion bullets they use now. It would break a lot of the guns though...
And I completely forgot about that buff update. Kind of really unneeded buff (and nerf for the Pepperbox) for a line that didn't need any work on it. Then there's the Catalyzer which desperately needs a buff, but keeps getting ignored. /sigh

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 14:41

Zeddy

"If anything deserves range like that it's the Magnus line."

And while we're at it, why do piddly antiguas have more reach than my huge burly magnus in the first place? Antiguas seem to be faster, stronger, safer AND longer-reaching than it and that seems like kind of a jerk move.

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 15:49

Zopyros-Il

Beep Beep Boop

@Zeddy
I'm actually fine with the range the Antiguas have. They're a set of speedy six shooters that aren't terribly powerful. They have nearly no stopping power on their shots and no status effect to rely on, so you have to keep moving. Because of that, its long range is kind of essential.
Magnus lines on the other hand, have massive stopping power and a good Stun chance (except for the poor Iron Slug), so while they can't move much, they make it so their enemies can't either. Having a little more room to make use of that and having the option to become a mobile artillery barrage would be awesome. Plus a little more attack to really add that extra punch would be a welcome addition.

Still, I don't think it would be too devastating to have the Antigua range reduced by a block or so. It would take some getting used to since I use it for shooting switches, but it wouldn't exactly break the guns. Maybe instead of fixing the range on the Blackhawk to fit the rest of the guns, make the other guns have that bugged reduced range?

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Zopy's Gun Concerns: Bugs and imbalances