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Balance Rants, a ridiculously long and silly thread on several unbalanced things (Updated as of 12th of June)

90 replies [Last post]
Sat, 05/14/2011 - 22:12
#51
izoold
Legacy Username
Double post in order to bump.

Double post in order to bump.

Sun, 05/15/2011 - 18:13
#52
kakelgis
Legacy Username
So, it seems like a whole

So, it seems like a whole week has passed ever since I first made this thread, and there has been no answer from the developers or Three Rings staff, despite the support given by several other players and the amount of posts.

If another week passes and there is no answer at all to this thread, we can probably assume that the devs either:
-Do not actually read suggestions, but watch for major issues that have several different threads around the forums
or
-Do not care about the players' opinion when it comes down to balancing issues

By the time the auction house is released, if we don't get any changes to any of the balancing issues, at least one of those options will prove to be true.

Sun, 05/15/2011 - 18:45
#53
Leviathan
Legacy Username
Not necessarily. They can

Not necessarily.

They can care, read the suggestions, and also have a policy in place to never, ever argue game balance with players. Or some other thing that reads as odd from our end. You've summed up *what* they visibly do fairly accurately. Summing up *why* is, given the circumstances, impossible without telepathy.

And, boss? You're a pretty sharp dude. But I don't think you're telepathic.

Sun, 05/15/2011 - 19:11
#54
kakelgis
Legacy Username
I do not express myself well sometimes.

The issue here, as said on the main post, is on the game-breaking issues that could end up pretty badly if not taken care of, mainly the economy parts of the game. (The activity (mainly looking at players online and minerals required to complete stratum 5 or 6) already suffered a major crash when the CE started going up, and now the drops in activity now aren't nearly as major. Before the rise on CE, the drops weren't quite as big either)

It's pretty simple. If they did read the thread and understand the issues, even if they do not choose to reply, they'd attempt changes on the major issues. Most of the changes wouldn't even require any kind of major coding to be delayed to further dates.

It's also much more likely that they're ignoring this thread or the suggestions for whatever reason, rather than choosing not to reply/delaying any kind of change. It's just much more common for developers to ignore something. And as I said on point 6, what we (well, I) want isn't a detailed answer, a yes or a no, we (I) just want any answer at all to confirm that we are not being ignored. If two weeks pass and there's really no kind of answer to confirm that they did at least read this, then it's pretty obvious they either did not read the thread or do not wish to reply, for any kind of bizarre reason they might have.

And please note that I said ASSUME. Auction House might not be coming any time soon. (and I shoulda been a bit more clear: I don't actually expect it to. If it does come any time soon, it'd just be assumptions aswell, until it has been around for a while and we can see the effects it has on the economy)

Sun, 05/15/2011 - 19:23
#55
Leviathan
Legacy Username
Okay, yeah. I am now on that

Okay, yeah. I am now on that same page with you.

Mon, 05/16/2011 - 15:13
#56
TsukasaSIGN
Legacy Username
Why does one bump a thread?

Why does one bump a thread? Is it for the thread's potential to be great? Is it for entertainment? Is it by request? Is it from boredom?

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 07:29
#57
div3
Legacy Username
Few things..

Farming for UV, and then complaining about how much it costs, is just dumb. "Unique Variants". Unique = at least very, very hard to come by. You're supposed to sink billions in CE into crafting to get them, or just get lucky. As soon as that changes UV items drop in value and they're no longer so special. If everyone has a UV, will we need "extra UVs" or some other nonsense? Just stop complaining about this, you all sound spoiled.

No one should ever complain about energy costs, ever. ME gets you a bit of play time - I think someone said 1-2 hours a day. If you want to play more, pay for it. A movie is what, $10 for 1.5 hours? 3 Rings is basically giving you up to 60 hours a month of play time for free on ME alone (if you follow the 1-2 hours a day x 30 days). That's not counting what you get if you sell stuff or buy more energy with crowns earned. 60 hours. Seriously, 60 hours. If that's not enough than you need a life.

I agree noobs need more help, and yes 3 Rings could do more.. but it's not like the community is tripping over itself to help noobs. People complain about beggers all the time, but how many players have taken one of these people under their wing instead of just ignoring them? This community is just as much ours as it is 3 Rings.

Overall, pretty good points OP, but with a dosage of whining as well.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 08:41
#58
kakelgis
Legacy Username
@div3

I'm not sure if I simply do not express myself well or people are just too silly to read the whole thing and understand my main point. Regardless, I made those sections a bit more clear.

>Unique Variants
I think this one should have been obvious, to be honest. The problem isn't the price, the problem is how impractical it is. (Hello, I have two Vog Cub Sets, one which I never use, two Blitz Needles, one which is completely obsolete because it has no UVs, two Storm Drivers that I never use anymore because I got a Magma Driver with a better variant, and two Grey Owlite Shields, which one of them is also obsolete, and I can't do anything with any of those items that I don't use because they're bound) Besides, using materials would probably be even more expensive in general terms, if you attempted UVs on a bound item, or if you failed.

In retrospect, I'm not sure why I even complained about the prices so much.

>Energy
Seriously, 60 hours. If that's not enough than you need a life.

this is pretty silly

But anyway. That's if you play daily, and not miss a single day. Missing to play a day or two for new/free players can be a major penalty overall, and that feels just silly. If ME would store past 100 without a faster regeneration rate, (to a certain limit obviously. wouldn't even need to be more than 200, to be honest) this wouldn't be that much of a problem.

And as a note, I don't really care about the system myself - It works pretty fine. The problem is that most new/free players are too ignorant too realize this, since it feels so limiting on them, and thus the game might lose several potential players because of this. If there are so many energy complaints/threads around, then it's obvious that there is an issue. Which is mostly with the players being silly, but whatever.

EDIT:

This update pretty much proved that despite the amount of approval, posts and the time this thread has been around, it was never read. (they did the exact opposite of what should be done - CE sinks instead of material or crown sinks) Hopefully now that they hired a Community Manager, this will be different.

I went ahead and updated section 1 regarding the update. Also, this is a bump.

Stop ignoring your players, Three Rings. And stop thinking your ridiculous concept of "balance" will actually solve anything.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:57
#59
izoold
Legacy Username
Iz dat sum bump? Yes, yes it

Iz dat sum bump? Yes, yes it is.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 16:52
#60
Arzyg
Very thorough

I love this...

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 20:50
#61
kakelgis
Legacy Username
With the recent changes, I

With the recent changes, I revamped the first section on materials and the economy, although leaving the old stuff on it just for the hell of keeping some history on it.

I think I forgot to comment on some things, but I'm pretty darn tired right now, so whatever!

Still waiting on an answer from the staff. Because of this, an unusual request: If you support this thread, even if just a few sections or just one, try keeping the thread alive and possibly publicizing it. (between friends and whatnot)

It's pretty simple - If THIS suggestion thread does not get an official reply from the staff, be it a developer or a GM, then really, what other suggestion thread will?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 21:46
#62
Archdandy
Legacy Username
I agree with almost everything you have said

Well written, sir! I enjoyed the read, and, like you said, that one post about the devs getting free top-notch advice sums it up pretty nicely. I have only posted to make this thread more visible, really... and to thank the OP for his hard work. Thank you.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 23:40
#63
tysta
Legacy Username
Sadly,

Sadly, I fear your message is lost.
It's a great read, has some really good points, but it relies on one thing; Developers reading it.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 11:05
#64
ajericho
Legacy Username
Hope that Eurydice can tell

Hope that Eurydice can tell us if this thread will be sent to the devs or not.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 11:54
#65
Eurydice's picture
Eurydice
Community Manager
I'm here! I am reading and

I'm here! I am reading and cataloging your forum feedback, including over here in the Suggestions section.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:10
#66
Grittle's picture
Grittle
yea, listen!

yea develepors listen! this is like Spiral knight probloms for dummies

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:11
#67
Grittle's picture
Grittle
yea, listen!

yea develepors listen! this is like Spiral knight probloms for dummies

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:21
#68
Leviathan
Legacy Username
"I'm here! I am reading and

"I'm here! I am reading and cataloging your forum feedback, including over here in the Suggestions section."

*pokes Eurydice about setting up a List and Anti-List*

*Considers that Eurydice might already be kind of overworked with forum 'splosion*

*Pokes again anyway*

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:36
#69
Ghimno
Legacy Username
Still relevant

This post seems to have been made quite a long time ago, even before updated patches.

And most (if not all) of the problems listed are completely relevant.

Listen to your player base OOO, you can't completely ignore those who make this game what it is.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:36
#70
Elegies
Legacy Username
As Ghimno said, this post was

As Ghimno said, this post was written a while ago, but still remains relevant (in fact, it's become moreso.)

All I can think is that Three Rings doesn't care about alienating their current playerbase and is instead focusing on the next wave of players, probably after some big publicity stunt/marketing campaign, who won't know what the game was like prior to these changes. Maybe longevity is the way to go. After all, if they aren't going to release some new endgame content soon, the current players will eventually tire of their Firestorm Citadel grinds.

Incidentally, the basil change pretty much removed any reason (other than mat farming, which is a shoddy reason at best) to do anything aside from Jelly King or Firestorm Citadel runs. Which is rather dull and only emphasizes a lack of content.

Development resources should go toward balancing the game, fixing the UI systems that are broken, enriching the crafting experience (not limiting it to real cash) and putting in new content to keep players coming back for new things. Not toward trying to squeeze every penny out of people that you can before they realize it, get angry, and leave.

Developers might be intelligent (or not, or brilliant, or idiots, or whatever) but they're still just human, they make mistakes, and they can have bad ideas. This current "fix" for the game's direction is not a good idea and does not fix root issues. It simply slaps a more stringent pricetag on them.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 03:29
#71
Zale
Legacy Username
This game has so much

This game has so much potential, the gameplay is really fun, But I agree with everything you said. There are some major balancing issues here and the Devs just seem to ignore the players completely. I don't think they even read the suggestions forums which makes you wonder why they have it in the first place.

Anyway. heres a +1 and bump from Zale.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 04:49
#72
Sophiera's picture
Sophiera
I support this post +1

I support this post

+1

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 13:04
#73
Astrophysicist
I agree, and also...

I agree with most of the points said in the first post, even though they could be somewhat slightly modified in some ways.

But the main problem still remains. If there aren't any developers/admins who read the Suggestion board, what's the point of it ?
If there can be Game Masters who can teleport to you and help you in 5-15 minutes after requesting support, why can't there be a single person who reads the suggestion board, notes down the parts that most of the community agrees on, sends them to the developer so they can decide if they'll put it in the game or not?
The new Community Manager really needs to step his/her game up and be more active.

To conclude: Right now we are in the dark. We can dilly-dally all we want in our secluded part of the forum, with no confirmation of our voice being heard.
I'm optimistic that there are at least some admins out there, reading silently, but are prohibited from communicating with us for one reason or another.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 13:16
#74
Azurenightmare
Vanguardian, Eurydice posted

Vanguardian, Eurydice posted on this same page. You know. The community manager who has to step her game up.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 13:28
#75
Madadder's picture
Madadder
its nice to hear that someone

its nice to hear that someone is listening from OOO

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 13:39
#76
Fruits's picture
Fruits
I also agree with almost

I also agree with almost everything on the OP.
That said, because there haven't been direct applications from them doesn't mean that nobody has read or taken interest. Some of the problems described, such as the zombie range for instance, are inherent to latency and are impossible to fix for those affected without changing (sometimes breaking) the game for others. Even AAA titles with budgets of gazillions and platoons of professional coders of privileged pedigree struggle to deal with latency; it's not something ooo can just say "oh hey! Next on the list is lag! Let's turn up the magical cvar for latency compensation to 10... Fixed!". Also, some of the gear balancing issues described make a lot of sense but are in the territory of damned if you do and damned if you don't. If ooo fixes the chaos set for example, all of a sudden the folks who grudgingly invested into their current set for viability reasons feel cheated and the whole market is in upheaval due to the perception that no item can retain its value because the devs will buff/nerf things on a whim.

Furthermore, the current patch introduced some glitches which, in my humble opinion need to be addressed more urgently. Not being able to go solo or manage a party without going into the endless loop bug is game breaking. Some players being unable to connect at all is also pretty catastrophic. Items being bound without confirmation or warning with the auction house is pretty terrible but perhaps more easily dealt with in the short run by acknowledging it and spreading the word. Vanaduke having a glitched mask color is much less urgent, but still a blatant sign that the devs' bug list is long and they are working on it.

Tl;dr: give them a chance. I know the list has been around for a long time but the glitches described are pretty hard to fix and the balance issues are pretty huge changes that can't be decided on a whim especially because, let's face it, we are an awfully exigent and entitled audience which, despite having agreed to the TOS, seem to believe we should be compensated with every little loss introduced by game changes. The game masters aren't to be confused with the game designers/coders and their being able to help is sign that at least they care about their game; the same cannot be said for a lot of other F2P MMOs.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 17:21
#77
Drunkefox
Legacy Username
clap clap

if only devs listen...or read in this case
but no theyr digging their own graves deeper and deeper with each update

Sat, 05/21/2011 - 05:53
#78
Delfim
I hope...

I hope this is considered by the devs (you gotta think about it, you cant just read it once!); it seems like there's a lot of very effective ideas here that could make players and devs happy.

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 23:59
#79
Fallout's picture
Fallout
Hitting up a bump + move this

Hitting up a bump + move this to the Arsenal thread. (more just copy+paste equipment balance stuff)

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 13:02
#80
kakelgis
Legacy Username
So hey, a bump and an update

So hey, a bump and an update to most sections.

Mainly section 7 - I have noticed that there's way more unfair things with several mobs than just range, that are worth mentioning.

It's kind of disappointing that those things haven't been addressed yet, even though Eurydice did reply and by now probably sent it to the developers.

Sure, those things take long, but come on, it's been over two weeks ever since she replied, and over a month ever since I originally posted this. Most of the issues aren't even major changes, and are easy enough to change.

It just feels like they don't care about the actual balance of the game and how fun/fair it actually is.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 11:21
#81
Eurydice's picture
Eurydice
Community Manager
> *pokes Eurydice about

> *pokes Eurydice about setting up a List and Anti-List*

Leviathan, apologies for just getting back to this now. I did indeed have my hands a bit full when you poked. Those lists are player-updated on YPP. You volunteering to make and maintain the ones for SK? ;)

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 00:31
#82
sirlaggalot
Legacy Username
Bumping

I was also reading another more recent thread. The poster basically agreed with your idea that it's silly not to let us store past 100 ME if our tank is full. So the solution they came up with was this:

Using Crowns and materials, you could craft EMPTY mist tanks. Your displayed tank must be filled to 100 like normal before empties begin filling.

I personally would like this too: There's no disruption of CE being bought from OOO in order to craft higher level items because one still can't deploy multiple mist tanks. We just get our time's worth of what would be rightfully ours if OOO remembered that we have lives outside the game. There would be less whining about 'not enough energy' because it allows us a 'bank' system of storing energy if you will (just without the interest).

This is a solution both to the more crown and material sinks required in the game. ALSO it encourages people to come back.

Obviously mats required would be a large amount and more than crowns required because who would be bothered crafting this if it's going to exceed market prices for CE?! And instead of specifying materials, OOO could just use numbers (say, 200 of any 1 star, 150 of any 2 star and so on). This could also help stabilise CE prices since not as many people are desperately buying CE to do extra runs (hence not generating even MORE crowns), just crafting (sinking crowns). Also it is not recommended to use energy in this craft again because of the reason just stated. Using energy to craft energy is silly.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:14
#83
Garboa
Four months later and this

Four months later and this thread is still relevant. The man has made some spot-on observations that I'm sure some of us were already concerned about. I support almost all these points 100% and would really appreciate some effort put forth by OOO to bring them closer to fruition.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:26
#84
Varja's picture
Varja
This guy...

...Has very good points, here.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 22:40
#85
Plaguerider's picture
Plaguerider
Bump so it stays afloat.

Bump so it stays afloat.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 02:33
#86
Kazzol
The part about CE is

The part about CE is reasonable, yes, practically everything in this game costs CE, but the monster rant?

Cmon, every problem you have with them can be resolved with a shivermist buster.
This game might look casual, but Tier 3 is meant to be hard and not a breeze to drive trough in a random group.
I might have not gone trough T3 levels yet, but thats what i think.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 13:46
#87
Bioxide's picture
Bioxide
Totally agree with point 6

Totally agree with point 6 and 7.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 17:50
#88
Randomsauce
Agree with this thread

Read most of this huge list of balancing issues and I like them all, Points 6 and 9 being the ones most valuable to me.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 22:01
#89
Bigfootm's picture
Bigfootm
Hey Biz!

Somebody found this, shall we go on a hunt to eliminate who bumped this?

^Ignore that.

REALLY THOUGH? DID YOU HAVE TO BUMP A 5 MONTH OLD THREAD? COULDN'T YOU HAVE MADE A NEW ONE?!?!! (Caps was intentional)

Don't bump 5 month old threads. I mean seriously? Really? /sigh

While most of these sections (If not all) are still in effect, that doesn't mean you should bump this.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 22:04
#90
Argune
agree with this thread

lot of good points. i dont agree with all the complaints but most of them are still valid.

[7BRM]
wolvers teleporting mid attack is just plain unfair and happends relativly often from my experience.
there is nothing you can do about it. i've tried shield deflecting but that rarely works.

The complaints about getting conered and blocked by mobs just sounds like whining, i used to complain a bit but have since learned to not get into those situations. avoiding a situation like that is part of the game imo.

[9GER]
I think they are overdoing it with CE on everything. with the latest update you need the equiv of 600 ce just to attempt the new levels :/
alot of people i know are being turned off at the constant CE requirements/cost on everything. If your userbase is shrinking, things like this would be the reason :p i didnt mind buying some CE for an extended playing session or to craft high level gear sooner. but if this is how all the new content is going to be...

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