Spiral Knights - Damage suction from floor hazards [Updated with pics]

Damage suction from floor hazards [Updated with pics]

27 replies [Last post]

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:49

Bugtester

This is quite an important issue in my eyes so here we go:
Hazards will kill you on low health. There is no way to escape them, as they literally suck you in. To me it seemed most strange that anyone would programm this to be that way - maybe it was just that the knockback is always against the direction you face? So I went and testet it. A friend of mine even uploaded a video to demonstrate what I mean:
http://youtu.be/jAiTFPlaqIo
Obviously this is stupid. That has nothing to do with increased difficulty or with pathfinding. When you get into a spiketrap and get your shield up in time, you should not be forced to either abandon your shield or be stripped of it. Also, when crossing one of those traps being knocked back does only keep from getting to the other side until you get damaged, after which crossing it is no more a problem, because you're invulnerable for a moment.

Right now a traps damage field looks like this:
IT'S EVERYWHERE
No matter where you face the damage source is evenly spread, making the direction you are moving to the immediate next source of damage. That is what knocks you back as you are walking "against resistance", just that this resistance is wherever you face.

What I want to see is tiered "resistance":
Spreading from the center
Hence, if you try to walk INTO it you get pushed back. BACKING OUT will not be hindered.
This applies not just to spikes, but every floorhazard.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 08:59

Zaffy-Laffy

So I would walk pass any trap with any shield now? Cool story.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 09:12

Onekone

Nope

It's not backwards knockback, it's lag that flinches trapped knights and makes him rubberband back into trap.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 10:46

Little-Juances

Yes if you have low health and fall into a trap it should kill you.

First of all, if you're stepping on the spike, shouldn't you be getting constant damage instead of one tick every 2 seconds? and thus destroy the shield instantly? Be happy it even let's you try to survive a little.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 11:00

Sir-Pandabear

You know what? I agree.

Let's maybe extend this a bit further than spikes. Is it unreasonable to expect to use my Dragon Scale Shield to walk across poison and fire grates? Keep the damage to the shield, remove the flinching for floor trap stuff and whisps, at the very least if the shield's resistant to the damage source.

I know the usual suspects are going to come in and go "herp derp easy mode this is a terrible suggestion lrn2play" but you know what? Those are the same people going "boo hoo nothing but BTS and Swiftstrike are worth anything" and a change like this would do something about it.

God forbid people have a reason to bring a royal jelly shield.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:10

Jidosha

reasonable, shoud be done.
instant death by spikes sounds retarded by any means given this is a game. same with fire. of course it burns all the time but when a slag guard impales you you don't bleed either do you`? or when you step on a needle in real life does it immediately pierce right through your foot? guessed so.

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 15:15

Softhead

Considering that the game is on a mechanical planet with a fur coat that RESISTS fire, Demonic workforces, that's a stupid assumption.

I mean alien Hommid, Contra should all be changed due to the fact that one hit usually kills you, I mean instant death via spikes are so bad.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 06:53

Bugtester

Where did you read anything

Where did you read anything about bypassing traps with any shield? Because I sure can't find anything about it and I wrote the OP.
And I don't think I can follow you conserning the lag, given that it happens at every occasion, regardless of ping.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 07:53

Zaffy-Laffy

"Knockback on such things should be removed. Not just on spikes, but every floorhazard." I believe you think that we misinterpreted you. Removing knockback means that you can shield can just walk pass any trap, whilst the shield is taking damage. By doing so, you can start to walk pass some traps with any shield, due to the fact that the shields will take a certain period of time before it breaks. The correct shields will take longer to break, and this gives opportunities for knights to walk pass a spike trap unharmed.

The current system takes it that you can only move away from danger when your shield breaks, you take damage and escape with invisibility frames, OR until your shield lasts and the trap is deactivated. I don't see any flaw in this.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 08:28

Thunder-The-Bright

it's not what you think it is

maybe you don't get it, but it would require getting 2 shields animations. for now, the attacks of te monsters and the attacks from wall hazards have the same animation. this suggestion would require a lot of work. it's not like copypasting one thing to another. it's re-making an animation. a lot of work that will not be done if not in the far far future and eventually in a galaxy far far away.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 09:05

#10

Draycos

I wasn't aware the lack of an animation counted as an animation...

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 09:46

#11

Bugtester

Shouldn't have worded it like that.

What I mean is not knockback in general but rather knockIN.
Also, though I really appreciate Thunder-The-Brights post, it's not what I mean either as it's not about the shield animation, but the damage source.
Let me elaborate:
Right now a traps damage field looks like this:
IT'S EVERYWHERE
No matter where you face the damage source is evenly spread, making the direction you are moving to the immediate next source of damage. That is what knocks you back as you are walking "against resistance", just that this resistance is wherever you face.

What I want to see is tiered "resistance":
Spreading from the center
Hence, if you try to walk INTO it you get pushed back. BACKING OUT will not be hindered.

Better now?

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 09:56

#12

Zaffy-Laffy

Sounds a lot of trouble into making such a definite system. Does this mean that the damage is heavier in the center? So I can now walk at the side of the spikes so there is no knockback there? Are you suggesting that players can still save their 1 health bar by being pushed out of the trap? What's more questionable is how this system is going to work, in coding terms. I don't work with java, but I think it just means lots of tedious settings, especially when some traps are elongated, compressed or just spread out more.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 10:02

#13

Thunder-The-Bright

better.

actually could be like a knockback bomb firing every 2 seconds. also, same knockback disregarding your position could be better.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 10:15

#14

Bugtester

Actually, it wouldn't be too

Actually, it wouldn't be too difficult as far as I know, and your questions, while justified, are quick to be answered:
1. No it isn't.
2. There would still be knockback at the sides.
3. Somewhat, yeah. It's not necessarily "saving them" and more "Not condemning them".

And now to answer how this all would work!
...
Ticking!
Yes, that's the answer, but maybe it needs context. Imagine that the Spikeplate in the picture is not one but three different plates, every one with a different tone of red and all of them tick with a different frequency, bright red being the fastest, light red the slowest. This would result in bright red "hitting" you the most often and hence knock you away from it.
Now you might argue that light red could be used to pass the trap, to which I answer, that it would still tick with it's current setting. It's more of a set of priorities, rather than an actual "timer" that determines the damage. Ideal would be a pyramid like structure to this, but I'd be happy with any change.

EDIT:
Damn, Thunders idea is even better, because less work. Not a bomber myself so I know little about it, but if they have such a thing, it would be a walk in the park to do that.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 10:58

#15

Thunder-The-Bright

yes!

someone has appriciated one of my ideas! yay!
but actually I'm not a bomber too. so I don't know if the knockback is the same at center and at the sides. can some bomber please tell?

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 13:38

#16

Zeddy

The amount of knockback is even all over the bomber's radius, only the direction is influenced.

I suppose it'd work but I think removing flinching entirely and being able to walk across a spike pit with a jelly shield would be kinda cool.

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 00:12

#17

Oatmonster

Lick Number 58425

I think the solution is not to, walk walk over the clearly defined hazard and complain about it after it bites you.

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 09:40

#18

Bugtester

Or you could just stop being a ****

If you could at any time just avoid them, they wouldn't be implemented in the first place. This is suggestion is not to make them easier, but to avoid being knocked into one an inevitably dying due to the inability to get back out. But you'd know that, if you had read everything, which you did obviously not. Just walking around like an idiot would still be punished, obviously, but they would stop being deathtraps.

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 10:47

#19

Oatmonster

Lick Number 58425

Hmm, lets make the traps not behave like death traps. Then what kind of traps would they be? It should not be easy to escape from a pit of spikes, and the game should not try to stop you via knockback when you try to walk into them.

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 11:28

#20

Bugtester

I'm irritated

So you're suggesting that those traps should not have any knockback?
Also a pit of spikes and a spike trap are to different things. While the first is certainly a Deathtrap, the latter is not, not even in real life. (At least not necessarily)

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 13:04

#21

Softhead

As I said.

The game doesn't follow physics.

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 13:12

#22

Thinslayer

Tweak the mechanics.

The mechanics you're looking at aren't very simple. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how it might be done, so I can't imaging programmers feel any better about it. Let's try another route.

When spikes go up, you get impaled. If they're tall spikes, it's instant death. If they're short spikes, they destroy your feet. Without your shield up, the spikes should slow you down; this is precisely what they do in Lockdown. In Lockdown, walking on spikes stuns you (probably because you're nursing/limping on your injured feet). If you continue to walk on them, your health will drain away (because you're bleeding through your feet), making them "health de-chargers."

Of course, that assumes your feet aren't covered. If you're wearing boots, spikes will dent or damage your boots, so you will have to walk more carefully on them. You can't go around running and jumping on spikes and expect your boots to stay intact.

Either way, you are slowed by spikes.

The shield can provide you with a kind of "bridge" over which you can safely cross spikes. You can walk normally through the spikes, but they will gradually degrade the integrity of your shield, or "de-charge" it. Shields with piercing and stun defenses will make better spike bridges than those with no such defenses.

Now let's combine these ideas and put them into action. If you walk on spikes without a shield, your health is "de-charged" over time, and you are stunned. If you walk on spikes with a shield, you can walk normally, but your shield will be "de-charged" over time, and a shield with piercing and stun resistance will work better than one without those properties.

These properties make sense for elemental grates, as well.

Sound good?

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 12:43

#23

Bugtester

Not a bumb. Nope.

As Zeddy said, the mechanis we are looking fore already exist. Through I like the bomb mechanic more, your suggestion makes sense and isn't too bad either.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 00:59

#24

Thinslayer

Spikes currently work very simply

Spikes do not "suck you in." They repel you from whatever direction you're traveling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FMP9iwmgw4

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 10:41

#25

Dunreave

Alright.

You all seem to have missed a simple point. Their is no drawback or knockback from spikes (90% of the time).
The only issue i have had is when death occurs every once in a while from a trap you are pulled into the center of the trap. Could even be from lag.

What your all talking about it the actual characters animation for taking damage. Its makes the character somewhat lunge backwards.
As if force was placed on the shield.

I believe a second animation is in order for floor damage AKA traps. This will hopefully solve the issue.

To all of you saying that animation and programming this would be difficult. Unless you have experience or a degree in game design please hush up.
At most its a week or two of work. Oh and its for a game that is currently published (and a work in progress), receiving complaints. So I'm sure OOO could manage it with a weekly patch. Or even one of their day after patches.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 11:51

#26

Thinslayer

Engineering class?

I've had an engineering class, Dunreave. One of the things I learned there is that you cannot even begin to solve a problem if you don't know precisely what it is. I don't have to have a degree in computer programming to know that it would be difficult to code something that isn't defined exactly.

The point of my video was to prove your point, that the only mechanic involved in keeping you on the spikes is the damage animation.

Now, I cannot say that my solution would be easy to code, but I can definitely say that it's easier than trying to code something nobody properly understands.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 12:04

#27

Dunreave

True

I was referring to thunder.

Also programming is not that difficult if you have the drive. There are, believe or not people out their who do enjoy programming.
I work with them.

Needless to say i understand where you come from.

Search

Damage suction from floor hazards [Updated with pics]