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Why is polaris over powered?

18 replies [Last post]
Sun, 02/17/2013 - 14:11
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Alchemers:
-one shot turrets and most enemies on charge
-deal with crowds
-faster fire rate when dual wielded
-higher number of shots likely to hit
-stable when not fighting
-capable of dealing with enemies in a variety of ways due to different status effects/damage types

Polaris:
-easily kills turrets, but takes 2-3 clips
-bad crowd control; spreads enemies into your path
-bad damage at close range
-low damage when hitting enemies
-bad for party play

We cannot and should not judge weapons according to lockdown, as lockdown is fundamentally broken, and is meant to be that way: (evidenced by the inclusion of invincibility frames)

So tell me, why is Polaris the king of the world? Why does everyone seem to think that it does so well?

-I'm wondering

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 14:57
#1
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

Well, for starters, at least two of your points are wrong.

"-bad crowd control; spreads enemies into your path"

Polaris does not spread anything, inherently. Enemies get knocked in exactly the direction the shot was traveling just like every weapon that's not a bomb behaves in regards to knockback. The gun has crowd control abilities rivaling Vortex and Shivermist, providing more control than Shivermist and more safety than Vortex. Simple strafe in a crescent around a group of enemies, push the whole lot of them into a corner and watch them fall one-by-one constantly damaged and interrupted by your endless barrage of explosions and shock. Melee-oriented enemies can never get close to you and ranged enemies just get interrupted.

It makes everything very, very easy. Whenever I actually expect to be in danger or just want to do something safely, I bring Polaris.

"-bad damage at close range"

It's identical to Storm Driver unless you bug exploit ricochets. It's also fires faster than Storm Driver unless you bug exploit weapon-switching to get around an entire aspect of how handguns function and are balanced against eachother.

It's a moot point, anyways. The gun doing damage at all is overpowered.

"-bad for party play"

You mean like Nitronome and Big Angry are bad for party play? Actually, actually- Maybe you mean like Electron Vortex is bad for party play? I've had people telling me to stop using Vortex because I was pretty bad at using it back then. You can use Polaris to gather up enemy groups more easily than supernova because of the shock being able to root enemies in place without needing a wall anywhere. The group can Brandish the gathered cluster of enemies, scoop them up in a vortex, use their favourite charge attack or join it with their own guns that are probably Polaris

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 15:19
#2
Bopp's picture
Bopp
agree

I agree that Polaris is largely a crowd-control weapon. Like other crowd-control weapons (Nitronome, Levi charges, Shivermist Buster) you can use it well or poorly. Its damage is decent, compared to Argent or an alchemer in the hands of a novice. The shock is handy for suppressing turrets. The knockback and shock are pretty effective at suppressing devilites too.

So Polaris seems useful for a certain constituency: Sworders who use swords for their main damage, but who like to have ranged attack, knockback, and shock for emergencies. This one weapon fills the bill. Switching to Storm Driver might increase damage, but only after mastering ricochets, and at the cost of knockback.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 15:48
#3
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

We can't assume anything to be or not to be a bug. I'd like due proof that switching weapons after each hit isn't supposed to resemble the knight juggling guns and firing them at the same time. Clearly, this can only be a part of the game's design, as it is still this way so long after launch, and is written about in almost every guide. It is a part of the balance, whether intended or not, as is supernova's grapple attack (charge step back into them).

"-bad crowd control; spreads enemies into your path"

If you are strafing around in a circle, then you will inevitably knock a portion of the enemies to the outside. These enemies may then get shocked, leaving you and your party in a bad position.

"-bad damage at close range"

The damage of a status alchemer at close range is generally equal to or greater than polaris, depending on how many richochet's you can pull off- if you are able to it with all of them, you deal 4 times the damage of a single shot. If you manage to hit with 2, twice the damage. Polaris always does 3 times, making it the lesser choice... a good gunner would be able to get 3 or 4 most of the time.

"-bad for party play"

Blowing enemies back and away from the expanded bullets is chaotic and awful. You can use an alchemer for everything but you can't use polaris for everything, or for everything in a way that helps your party. If you try, then you will blow enemies away from your team mates and will otherwise end up harming your party's damage per second.

"Switching to Storm Driver might increase damage, but only after mastering ricochets, and at the cost of knockback."

Knockback is a neutral force; it neither helps nor hurts your party if you are able to use it. If you aren't, then you're at its mercy. For all practical purposes, we can assume that the user is able to master their weaponry, meaning that it is both given that the player is able to increase damage using ricochets, and that knockback would be helpful if not for the shock effect, which hurts the gun immensely in that it cancel's the knockback that would otherwise be used purposefully.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 16:00
#4
Atacii
...

Why do these threads keep popping up?

It's only OP in LD. In PVE it's a pretty awful weapon as the only thing that matters any more is damage, and Polaris performs poorly in most situations.

Haven't seen a decent player bring one to CW in a while...

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 16:17
#5
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear
"We can't assume anything to

"We can't assume anything to be or not to be a bug."

You're right about that. It's risky to craft weapons based on exploits people have discovered with them, doubly so to put effort and resources into rolling UVs on them. Once upon a time there used to be a bomb that people found a lot of handy tricks with and it got removed. You may have heard about it.

"Knockback is a neutral force; it neither helps nor hurts your party if you are able to use it."

So if shieldbumping had the radius of a Nitronome nothing would be overpowered about it?

And the shock does nothing to hurt Polaris. Either the enemy gets blown backwards or they're stunned by shock, unable to attack, about to take a load of shots in the face and die.

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 18:27
#6
Sketman's picture
Sketman
Grapple Attack?

Fehzor, what is the grapple attack you mentioned about the Supernova?

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 23:04
#7
Espeonage's picture
Espeonage
On implementation

The advent of the Pulsar and Catalyzer series were essentially answers to the community's desires. Handguns were seriously considerably bad, their only real ability being always ranged damage, but that was in nigh disregard due to being so weak, unmodifiable (the only solid boosts were ASI), and having the most limited extent of utility overall.
Eventually we received the update that brought us some decent changes to Handguns, as well as two new types of guns that had the capability for knockback and crowd/control usage, for Handguns. We were given actual strong guns, with some neat new mechanics, ones that had better aptitude to where they could keep pace with the other, powerful weapons; we even got a Poison-inflicting Handgun, which was similarly requested.

Personally, it's been ironic that we were actually given the things that we wanted, and even within a year later, the then-different community were already rejecting it, likely oblivious to why we received them in the first place. This isn't to void today's issues so to speak, but to shed light on why they exist - they were found to be necessity.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 17:45
#8
Mohandar's picture
Mohandar
A history of Polaris

The Polaris actually came a long time before the handgun buffs. Basically, partially in response to the community asking for more gun variety (I get the feeling they were already in the works due to IMF coming out regardless), two new guns were introduced. The Polaris was able to perform a very specific role that no other weapon could fulfill- safe, long range turret takedowns- and thus was a welcome addition. Note that IMF arrived in early June of 2011. Lockdown did not arrive until mid August, at which point guns were still woefully underpowered as a whole. The entire idea of gunning in LD was all but infeasible, as you had to wear full shadowsun and two trinkets to achieve Maximum! damage, and even then it was a fraction of the base sword damage. Therefore, the Polaris wasn't really explored as an area-denial tool because opponents could just shrug off the damage and skewer you anyway.
Then, guns received a global damage boost early in 2012. This was long overdue, and enabled a number of gun-based playstyles to become fairly competitive, in LD and Clockworks. The Polaris received the same global damage boost, and consequently came into favor as a LD "mobile bomb". The reason it breaks LD is because it provides a specific ability- area denial- to a class that was intended to lack it for balance purposes. That said, the Polaris provides area denial capabilities to all classes- but it is most noticeable in Striker, because the VHigh bomb CTR penalty was intended to remove area-denial from the Striker's roles.
It is unfortunate that there is no easy way to balance Polaris without hurting Clockworks functionality, but it also does not seem right to specifically apply a ban/nerf to one specific weapon during LD. A middle of the road solution might be to slightly reduce damage, and change it to slight/fair chance to inflict moderate Shock. A large part of why it is so over-powered is due to how deadly Shock is- this status has the potential to disrupt every single action, from attacks to movement to charging. Another idea is to make the expanded bullet's hitbox a little bit smaller, which reduces its effectiveness at area-denial.

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 18:39
#9
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

"The Polaris was able to perform a very specific role that no other weapon could fulfill- safe, long range turret takedowns- and thus was a welcome addition."

Unless you count Iron Slug, which entire purpose is safe, long-range takedowns. (Snipe with the charge or just interrupt with the regular shots.) Alchemers probably have the power to interrupt turrets, I'll let you know when I see one that needs more than one shot to destroy them. Old RSS could safely take out several turrets at once from a distance if we're talking weapons in general and not just bombs. You're also safe by default at a distance from any turret but rocket turrets so Valiance serves that purpose as well.

Polaris is not filling any role that no other weapon can, it's filling multiple roles previously belonging to various other weapons and also doing it better than all of them while being easier to use. "Keep x distance away from what you're attacking" is infinitely easier for people to grasp and condone than "wait x time between your attacks to keep the target perpetually interrupted". Wait between your attacks? Heresy! Your dps will become lower and that is the worst fate of all of them.

This is what people mean when they talk about "spam". Polaris is spammy because it does not require you to do anything in particular:
-Magnus gives interruption, status, and long-range sniping. It requires timing or room to keep distance as well as judgement of where off-screen enemies are.
-Alchemers give status and damage, as well as crowd damage. It requires technique for exploiting gun-switching, aiming for exploiting internal ricochets and calculation for intended use of ricochets.
-Blaster requires constant aim directly at the enemy to stack its modest knockback on the single target at which you're aiming. You will also need to dodge the target's ranged attacks since Valiance doesn't interrupt anything.
-Antigua is similar to valiance, but instead of single-target knockback you get single-target damage.
-Autoguns requires positioning and dodging while you charge the attack up. Careful kiting must be done for the charge to be safely unleashed. The reward is either high damage, damage and a status or damage and knockback. They all also have interruption.
-Catalyzer requires team coordination, which is why you never see Catalyzer anywhere. It also requires careful timing for the knockback to be productive. The reward is crowd knockback and crowd damage.
-Polaris gives interruption, status, medium-range sniping, crowd damage, crowd knockback. It requires you to put a dancing hamster on top of your mouse button in case you're falling asleep from boredom and can't continously press it on your own. No timing or aiming is required. It requires positioning in the sense that it's only adequate within melee range (still more damaging than Iron Slug), but once you're outside of that you don't really need to be in a specific position relative to the enemy because you can simply choose where you want all the enemies in any given battle to be. No technique or calculation is involved, as the knockback is always straight ahead rather than the orbital knockback of bombs or Catalyzer. I've moved entire danger room waves with this thing, what little remained of them by the time I got them to the corner where I wanted them, at least.

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 01:38
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Alchemer charges can one shot turrets, on a good hit. "bad hits" cancel, and normal hits (not charges) deal just as much if not more than polaris's shots, though don't cancel. The main thing though, is the ohkoing charge. Polaris does not "require" you to do anything in particular, but benefits greatly from you playing along with it to not hurt your team mates. There is no shame in using the normal shots.

Supernova's grapple attack is a result of the Divine Avenger nerf- All projectiles are generated within the knight, however some projectiles are bigger than the knight. This kills the projectiles on the Divine Avenger, but allows the knight to hit enemies with the projectile from Supernova/Polaris as it spawns from behind. To perform a grapple, charge supernova/polaris and face directly away from a group of enemies with your body facing away from them release while pressing up against a single mob. This will make the knight elbow whatever is behind her explosively, "grappling" and sending the group of enemies in front of the knight- this tends to often be the best tactic when fighting beasts. Since the DA's nerf was intended, it can only be presumed that this was intended as well until otherwise stated against.

The history lesson on the gun is nice, although has very little to do with the question of why people see it as being OP in the clockworks. And no, I don't care about lockdown, which was intended to be unbalanced.

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 09:46
#11
Heavy-Dragon's picture
Heavy-Dragon
I think it boils down to:

people see it as OP:

>because it makes the game "too easy" (lol.)

>because it is a stumbling block to Strikers (let's talk about how heart trink strikers are underpowered and why you dont have a wood bracelet on/dps nullifying gear on if you are a recon)

For the people saying it should not do damage at all or that the shock status should be removed entirely (or even that it should not be allowed to knockback) I'd like to see your well defined reasons that do not boil down to 'wah, clockworks are too easy' or 'wah, I can't dash/cloak even though people use it all the time in LD' and I refuse to wear a wood bracelet-)

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 12:41
#12
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
@Heavy-Dragon

If you removed the damage entirely from Polaris it would still be an incredible crowd-control weapon. Apparently Polaris has horrible damage so it wouldn't really change anything according to people who don't find it overpowered.

I'm typically a bomber recon in full mercurial demo with a wyrmwood bracelet, just mentioning.

Tue, 02/19/2013 - 13:14
#13
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Fehzor

It should be noted that a grapple can be done with Blaster line guns, too. I first saw it with Valiance.

Wed, 02/20/2013 - 08:26
#14
Heavy-Dragon's picture
Heavy-Dragon
@ Zeddy

I want to say this as bluntly as I can. No damage + decent mechanic is not the same is bad damage + decent mechanic, no matter what the people who use it appear to say.

Wed, 02/20/2013 - 09:56
#15
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
@Heavy-Dragon

What's your point? Mine is that Polaris' mechanics are useful enough on their own without needing damage, not unlike Stagger Storm. Polaris is kind of like if Stagger Storm also set enemies on fire.

Wed, 02/20/2013 - 13:06
#16
Heavy-Dragon's picture
Heavy-Dragon
@Zeddy

My point is simply that, while the mechanic -IS- more important than the damage, removing it entirely -would- make a change in the usefulness of the gun in both fighting enemies and in LD. Even the haze bombs do damage when they explode.

Wed, 02/20/2013 - 17:34
#17
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
@Heavy-Dragon

Yes, haze bombs do a bit of damage when you use their charge attack. I don't think the damage on the charge attack needs to be removed, only for the more permanent haze of knockback you can spew out with it.

At the very least bring the damage down on the level of Valiance. Somewhat slower bullets does not balance it having five times the knockback and bullet size, and 30% more damage.

Wed, 02/20/2013 - 18:40
#18
Heavy-Dragon's picture
Heavy-Dragon
@Zeddies

Well, you also have to consider that it a boss-only item and is not upgraded as easily as valiance.

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