Spiral Knights - Looking into shadow armor

Looking into shadow armor

35 replies [Last post]

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 17:58

Batabii

Snarbolax Suit
Pros: Great power
Cons: VERY expensive

Dread Skelly Suit
Pros: Great defense
Cons: no other buffs

Radiant Silvermail
Pros: No semi-useless normal resist, instead piercing, plus undead medium could be very useful. Cheaper than other sets, since it has no 2*
Cons: Doesn't have a helmet, piercing is not that important in t3 (especially since I have Skolver Coat anyway), curse resistance will rarely matter

Divine Mantle
Pros: Elemental+shadow, and good stat resist
Cons: I already have the divine hood, doesn't have anything else special to it, curse resistance will rarely matter, lacks the poison resist of the other sets

Which of these choices should I take? The other choices don't have enough strengths or have too many weaknesses. I'll be getting the Snarbolax suit either way (for costume) but it will be a while before I have enough CE and the ashtail coat, and I'd like to know if I'm better off just waiting for that or getting one of the simpler outfits

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 18:26

Zeddy

Normal is not semi-useless. It's the most useful defence out of all of them.

I don't say this out of some kind of hipster pride. Normal defence acts against something like half the attacks of the game while each specialised type is split for 1/7th of attacks and full for another 1/7th (roughly).

All melee is at least part normal, so a zombie hit will do more damage to you in radiant silvermail than it would in a dread skelly.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 18:55

Troupe-Forums

Snarbolax set is barely more expensive than any other 5* set. The lack of need for recipes saves you 50kcr, which is more than the cost of a shadow key split 4 ways (450ce). You'd just need to buy an extra nightmare mane, which will set you back around 10-20kcr.
In the end Snarby is barely more expensive, if at all, compared to normal 5* armours.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 23:16

Batabii

@zeddy That doesn't make

@zeddy

That doesn't make sense.

"Sources of Normal Damage

Brambles
Blast Cube series
All Devilites except Pit Bosses and Yes-men
Ghostmane Stalkers
All Kats
Any non-status inflicting Lichen
All Lumbers
All Mecha Knights
Mortafires
All Retrodes
Royal Minis and Jelly Green Minis
All Scuttlebots
Slag Guards
Spiked Wheels
Thwackers
Trojans
All Zombies"

Take out the monsters specific to one boss stratum or mission, and stationary level traps.
Also the wiki states on the individual monster family pages that Kats, Devilites, and Zombies do, indeed, deal shadow damage, most likely 100% in tier 3 like everything else. Likewise for Mecha Knights and Elemental.

So that only leaves:

Blast Cube series
Any non-status inflicting Lichen
All Lumbers
All Retrodes
All Scuttlebots
Thwackers
Trojans

Not only that, but Lichens and Retrodes only deal Normal damage for their melee attacks. Therefore having Normal defense is very low priority.

@troupe-forums
Why would you need an "Extra" nightmare mane? You still have to get to the sanctuary either way. And 450ce extra per person is a lot, not including revive costs and the gear/skill required to beat the Rabid Snarbolaxes to begin with. You still need the 800 just to craft a 5* armor besides that.

Thu, 02/21/2013 - 23:54

Feline-Grenadier

...

I was thinking...

With a person like you, batabii, is it hard for you to SL twin snarbies? It shouldn't take so much to kill them...

Anyhow, if you're already 5* and all that jazz, then "expensive" shouldn't mean much to you. So go for Snarby then...

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 06:43

Zeddy

@Batabii

Sorry, you're wrong. All of those enemies you snipped deal 50/50 normal/special just like swords do.

There are ways to prove it. I have a Volcanic Plate shield and a Dragon Scale shield. According to you, both of these should have zero defence against a zombie (or just fire defence against slags). It's-

Actually, do you HAVE a Dragon Scale Shield? Seeing how much you hate normal defence, you should. Just craft one and try to block zombies with it. I'll be over there blocking everything with Ancient Plate.

Edit: Also, check the wiki entry for Void Zombies and see how they're stated to deal normal and shadow. Void Zombies do not appear in T2 and T1.

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 08:34

Forumchat

@OP

i won't mind if you had forgotten the deadshot or angelic line.
what about shadowsun?
looking forward to see your pro thoughts on them, clearly.

and next, i had completed a clean full-party SL snarb run with 0 ce revives, derp.
lastly, you can only get one mat at the sanctuary per run.

owait, you had played this game for at least 10 months, you must be trolling here, aha
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/51948

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 08:41

Little-Juances

About Radiant Silvermail, one could argue beasts and jellies are the easisest families ever anyways.
And pretty much every level has either explsoive blocks, elemental grates, gun puppies or lumbers dealing elemental.
Divine mantle would be totally better for general use. Unless you fall into floor spikes too often, that is.
Fire and shock are also arguably better resistances than poison and the undead bonus won't be missed.

Still, all that crap was based on the assumption normal damage is useless. Wich is wrong.

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 10:50

Batabii

@vinnydime I'm only actually

@vinnydime
I'm only actually been there once. And how much gear I have is irrelevant, CE is still time-consuming to obtain, and right now I only have 300

@zeddy
I have ancient plate set. And I'm pretty sure it's impossible to have "zero" defense to anything. Even if you go to FSC in proto gear, I'm sure you can't lose 25+ hp in one hit. Having "defense" just reduces the damage. So having Normal defense or, say, Dragon Scale Mail, both of which have no shadow defense should do the same thing against Kat projectiles. Which are far more common than, say, blast cubes.

@forumchat
I'm not a gunner, so shadowsun will have no use to me, at least for the forseeable future. If anything, I'd prefer to get the Set of the Fallen and just ASI everything.
I've only been to an SL once, ok. I can't exactly memorize the layout without paying buttloads of CE.
I dont see how that thread you linked was in any way relevant.

@little-juances
Good point. They don't seem to have any AI beyond "chase player and attack", and though beasts dodge rarely, DBB makes short work of them.

As for floor spikes, my testing seems to imply that spikes deal Normal damage and not Piercing, but this is based on using APS vs BTS; I haven't tested it on actual armors yet, and i didn't account for base shield health or other factors.

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 11:55

Zeddy

@Batabii

You are correct in kat projectiles doing the same damage to an ancient set as it would to dragon scale.

The bite is another story.

Actually, where is this discussion at the moment? Do you concur that every melee attack deal at least partial normal damage? I'm just trying to inform you of an actual, provable fact here. I've used dragon scale shield and every manner of plate shield and I can testitfy to one of them soaking up zombie hits like nothing while the other one breaks like paper.

See, long ago I had the same idea you did and, after getting a Crest of Almire, I made a dragon scale shield thinking normal had to be pretty useless. It didn't take long for the dragon scale shield to slink badk to an unused corner of my arsenal and me sticking to my old reliable Volcanic Plate while crafting Owlite and Ironmight shields so I had sufficient shields for anywhere.

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 12:24

#10

Canine-Vladmir

You forgot about Almirian Crusader Set.

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 14:03

#11

Troupe-Forums

Response

You save 50kcr by not needing recipes to craft the snarby set thats ~700 ce at today's prices. That's the cost of
1/4 of the key and buying an overpriced nightmare mane so you can craft the set in one run.
As for revs, if you take a decent party you shouldn't need to spend any more than 20ce on revs.
Skill costs nothing, and if your other party members are decent enough and you're not walking into attacks, then you can do it easily in ash tail.

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 14:15

#12

Aureate

More importantly, you forgot about Shadowsun. (But then I take it you probably don't use guns much.)

If I were you, I'd put the effort into saving up for the Snarbolax coat. Admittedly it'll take a while to get there, but the sword bonuses are worthwhile, and its status resistances are reasonable.

Also, since you're probably a swordsman, you're fighting melee, which means that you are liable to take melee hits and that you are going to want some normal defence. I can confirm that zombie non-breath attacks and kat bites, at the very least, do 50/50 split normal/shadow damage at t3.

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 22:08

#13

Forumchat

"I'm not a gunner, so shadowsun will have no use to me"

this video shows how useless is the shadowsun set combine with an elite trueshot and a max ctr blitz. having no asi on any gear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5_4wcP01xY

why did i post that link? i dare to say more than 95% veteran players with that long gaming experience could already knows throughly about all those BASIC game mechanism. which group(95% or 5%) do you belong to btw?

Fri, 02/22/2013 - 22:56

#14

Batabii

@zeddyYou can't really

@zeddy
You can't really "plan" for the bite though, kats are way too unpredictable.
I never argued that, I know melee attacks have a normal component even in tier 3, but most melee attacks are very easy to dodge as opposed to ranged.
I also think you're exaggerating with the "soaks up hits vs breaks like paper" argument.

@canine-vladmir
No I didn't. If snarby suit is hard to obtain, AC is four times as hard. It would mean going through at least three more shadow lairs first.

@troupe-forums
Oh I forgot about recipe prices. Still, 25kcr (I already have the hat, and that's not what this thread is about) will only buy you about 350ce at current prices. And I still don't understand why you'd bother buying a material you get from the run anyway.

@aureate
if you didnt notice I already mentioned that guns are my least used weapon of the three, and in addition I'm not getting a whole set, so that meager Medium damage bonus is irrelevant.
No, I'm not a swordsman. To be honest, I rarely specialize. My typical loadout is one of everything or two bombs and a sword. And swordies are just as likely to receive projectile damage. It's just that they tend to take more melee than other "classes", not less ranged.

@forumchat
I don't think you realize what I just said. I'm not a gunner. I don't go more than one gun at a time. I don't care how useful it is for people who can afford all that ce for trinkets and uvs, it will provide little to no benefit to ME. Yes I know "basic game mechanisms". Don't insult my intelligence. There's more to spiral knights than just spamming vanaduke runs over and over. Blitz is fine against Trojans, Pit Bosses, and the like, but beyond FSC and a few danger missions, I rarely feel the need to keep it equipped.

Shadowsun Slicker is not an option. Get over it.

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 00:57

#15

Troupe-Forums

I was talking about buying the nightmare mane because I assumed you didn't already have one piece of the snarby set and seeing as you wanted to save money buying one before going on the run so you don't have to go on two rus to make the set

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 01:16

#16

Krakob

You should still consider Deadshot. It's a highly underrated set that contributes slightly to guns but even more to well, everything. And by everything I mean the FSC you'll have your butt in all the time if you're like everyone else. Also, 's good for two danger missions, a certain event that will return, and probably more I can't remember right now.

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 05:15

#17

Zeddy

@Batabii

I am not. Dragon Scale breaks at least as fast as Swiftstrike Buckler. Ancient never breaks under normal use. Sometimes I use it to take multiple bullets without breaking as bullets are just inherently weaker than melee attacks. Meanwhile, I can also use it to tank Trojan hits. This is no hyperbole, my friend, I can use the shield to survive getting cornered by two Trojans with my shield still intact. Despite Ancient having no fire resistance, I can still block zombie breath with it without it hardly even turning green.

Again, you are welcome to craft a Dragon Scale Shield and use it places. Just don't say I didn't warn you.

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 09:46

#18

Fehzor

Radiant Silvermail is situational, but when its situation comes up, it's incredibly powerful. But reliable? No.

I don't have Skelly. It looks nice, but I don't have it. It is important to note though that the dread skelly hat is almost entirely outclassed by the new kat hats.

Snarbolax is a fairly meh piece of armor, it has crappy defensive bonuses, being at high (+3) instead of max (+4) and tends to be decent only if you're using a bunch of swords.

Deadshot is just flat out overpowered. Get it.

Fallen is outclassed by Deadshot.

The other gunner armor, shadowsun is alright. It isn't the best thing ever since sliced bread, but it is alright. Like snarbolax but better- swords are vastly improved by ASI or CTR rather than damage, most of the time, but guns tend to benefit from damage more than anything.

Hmm.. what else is there...

Valkyrie is meh. Doesn't give much defense, the fire bonus sucks. But it isn't bad.

Divine set is alright, but lacks normal and any sort of decent offensive bonus, except for the hat. The hat is amazing, it has 3 status resists and a fiend bonus.

Don't have heavenly iron set. It looks pretty solid, except for the shock penalty, it prolly falls short where valkyrie does. Does seem worth crafting though, or at least the body does, for fighting fire-fiends. Gotta get a UV.

And then there is almirian crusader, which is just disgraceful.

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 15:42

#19

Bopp

Fehzor

swords are vastly improved by ASI or CTR rather than damage, most of the time, but guns tend to benefit from damage more than anything.

What's the reasoning behind this opinion?

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 16:42

#20

Batabii

@troupe Is it really that

@troupe
Is it really that much cheaper to BUY the material than to earn it?

@krabob
I don't want to grind the same mission over and over and over and over and over and over. And clearly I have no problem with FSC as I am. Needing shadow armor is for danger missions, SLs, and other particularly difficult enemies, as I realized during the Kataclysm.

@zeddy
Even against shadow, I don't see how that's possible, since it has more than DOUBLE the health. Besides, who in their right mind brings a shield that's good against everything EXCEPT what they're facing?
Also I'm not exactly sure how zombie breath counts on shields (since it does no damage, just status).
The only problem is I don't really need more piercing resistance. If one existed, I'd prefer a shield that covers elemental+shadow. Regardless, I was never planning on crafting the dragon scale SHIELD, just the mail, so this line of discussion is irrelevant.

@fehzor
I don't see anything unreliable about RS. Medium vs undead across the board, and good defense at the expense of no Normal.

Skelly has undoubtedly the most Shadow defense of ANY armor. Which is kind of what I was going for.

I will be getting snarbolax sooner or later, just to complete the set.

The only thing deadshot has that radiant doesn't is a meager gun bonus I don't need, and some normal defense, whereas RS has piercing and poison resist as well as MORE shadow defense than deadshot.

How is fallen outclassed by deadshot? Why bother with gun asi when you can have EVERYTHING asi? Plus it has poison AND fire resistance. The only downsides are a slight drop in normal defense (again, not very important), curse weakness (also not very important) and damage penalty vs fiend, which is the only thing keeping it from being OP. This is another set I WILL craft eventually, just to get max asi on everything.

Shadowsun is irrelevant for my purposes.

valkyrie might actually be nice, paired with divine veil I already own. Each complements the other's weaknesses quite well, while giving me a full Very High fiend bonus.

Heavenly iron's shock penalty worries me. As far as I'm concerned, shock is the WORST status to be weak to. And the low damage bonuses don't seem to help much, I'd rather just get snarbolax set and max out my swords rather than have to craft two new pieces of gear just for medium sword and medium fiend. really I don't see much point to that set. It tried to be a little of everythi....well, SOMETHING and ends up being not much good for anything.

I'm not even going to bother checking almirian crusader's stats, since it's way out of my price range.

Since I've apparently missed a few armors, I'll reorganize my list:

Snarbolax Suit
Pros: Great power...for swords
Cons: A pain to acquire

Dread Skelly Suit
Pros: More shadow defense than anything
Cons: no other buffs

Radiant Silvermail
Pros: Piercing resist instead of normal (and better shadow defense), plus undead medium could be very useful. Cheaper than other sets, since it has no 2*
Cons: piercing is not that important in t3 (especially since I have Skolver Coat anyway), curse resistance will rarely matter

Armor of the Fallen
Pros: ASI for all, and good fire resistance. Cheaper than other sets, since it has no 2*
Cons: Penalty vs fiend, substantial curse weakness

Valkyrie Mail
Pros: Complements divine veil very well, fiend bonus. Cheaper than other sets, since it has no 2*
Cons: weak to fire

Deadshot Mantle
Pros: high normal defense, high curse resist, damage bonus vs undead. Cheaper than other sets, since it has no 2*
Cons: gun asi isnt important to me, and neither is normal defense

Heavenly Iron
Pros: high normal defense, curse resist. Cheaper than other sets, since it has no 2*
Cons: weak to shock, meager damage bonuses

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 18:02

#21

Fehzor

Fallen VS Deadshot

Fallen can be used when there are undead only. This is because fighting fiends with it does not work. You will attack mildly quickly, tank about 2 hits and then die to something. Deadshot can be used to fight fiends. Guns are great for devilites, and it has damage vs fiend: Not negative on it, making it an ideal source of being able to hit fiends normally.

But here is the big thing:
Fallen:
-ASI low for guns
-ASI low for swords
-ASI low for bombs

Deadshot:
-ASI low for guns
-Damage vs undead med

ASI low for bombs does nothing to very little. It would be best to bring a hissing kat hat or even a single piece of volcanic demo.... so let me ask you this: Is one stage of ASI for swords equal to a med damage upgrade on all of your weapons? Given that you're not fighting fiends, that is what undead med is.

Why Radiant Silvermail Is Situational

Optimal shadow resistance: Shadow + NORMAL resistance....... why bother with piercing resistance when you can bring something like... deadshot and get normal+shadow for the level as well as extra bonuses? Poison hardly a concern either- shock and fire are far harder to deal with, and are the only things you should really be considering status-wise most of the time when planning your armor.

Why Snarbolax Gear Isn't That Great

It takes 9 stages of status resistance to gain one immunity to whisps or fire bubbles or any of that. It takes 7-8 stages of status resistance to gain immunity to lockdown bombs. Most armors give 4 stages of status resistance. Snarbolax only gives 3- meaning that in order to out-status whisps, it would take a high UV on ice/poison, or a med to out-status lockdown bombs, I believe. This makes it cost a lot more...

It also only gives sword damage as it's bonus. Sword damage is not that all that useful much of the time, as swords deal high damage already. If an enemy has 300 health, and my weapon does 200, unless I can get my weapon's damage up by 50%, I'm not going to be able to deal with that enemy. ASI, in contrast, is far more effective in that I can get in my 2 hits faster. That is to say that it only matters if you're fighting larger enemies with your sword in the first place.

It is enough to bump some stuff up, and it can be alright, but ASI on swords is far preferable to damage.

------

Don't feel like writing any more. So eh.

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 18:34

#22

Batabii

Fallen vs DeadshotThat would

Fallen vs Deadshot
That would be true...except defense isn't everything. While deadshot is better against fiends and undead, Fallen is still better everywhere else. I beat FSC several times without ever having any shadow resistance at all, so AotF should still have a use outside of shadow strata. I wanted to get it anyway for the universal ASI. Much like I got the Chaos set for the universal CTR. That way I don't need two (three in the case of chaos) different sets. Plus AotF has fire resistance, great for FSC.

Radiant Silvermail
You compare deadshot to radiant...but deadshot doesn't have any status resists besides curse, so I don't see how that point matters.
Shadow defense is far more important in t3 than normal, and in addition, radiant silvermail has more shadow defense anyway.

Snarby Coat
Again, I'll be getting this later eventually, but I understand how it's supposed to be huge sword power in exchange for less defense. I don't see why I should base my gear around wisps or lockdown anyway. And funny you should mention ASI, which is just what fallen gives me without needing two different sets (sword and gun)

Sat, 02/23/2013 - 22:06

#23

Troupe-Forums

It's cheaper to buy the material so you can craft a whole set in one run rather than doing two runs just so you can get another mat. Also faster

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 02:58

#24

Forumchat

selective attention

"Cheaper than other sets, since it has no 2*"

oh gawd, this even bother you lolx?

from what i saw, you already have your to-do list for shadow gears at the beginning. others opinions are just irrelevant to you anyway, you are the best, right?.

the list of swaging ftw:
awesome because no useless normal defense: divine, radiant.

very good: dread, snarbolax (claim of getting both nearly identical set, seriously?)

good: fallen (fire are horrible and total medium asi are awesome)

so-so: h iron, valk( weakness)

rubbish: deadshot (normal, no status)

rubbish of the rubbish: shadowsun (gun VH is irrelevant, poison is irrelevant since other sets have covered)

idgas: almirian

i hope it covers well, very very wise choice you have made indeed.

btw, where are the kat cowls? try again

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 04:15

#25

Aureate

/le facepalm

Heavenly Iron is still a Shadow Lair armour. A Shadow Lair armour that requires running a lair that is even more of a pain than UGWW; Red Roarmulus Twins are not exactly the easiest bosses to run.
Kat Cowls are not readily available unless you have excessive cash to splash or saved up lots of tokens, and even then they are not all that wonderful. You get less of a health bonus than with any other helmet of the same star level, along with shock weakness (and curse weakness that nobody still cares about).

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 03:48

#26

Zeddy

@Aureate

You need to heat your Kat Cowl. It gives the same health bonus as every other 5* helmet.

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 04:06

#27

Forumchat

"A Shadow Lair armour that

"A Shadow Lair armour that requires running a lair "
two totally different SLs, tbh

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 04:14

#28

Aureate

Not according to the wiki.

Kat Claw Cowl stats
Snarbolax Cap stats
Oddly enough, the Black Kat Cowl gets the same health bonuses as every other helmet at the same star level; it's just the craftables that are different from all the other helmets, health-wise. I haven't checked the recipe stats in the Moorcroft Alchemy machine to confirm, but I can do if you give me a few minutes...

@Forumchat: Hence, 'even more of a pain'.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 10:18

#29

Forumchat

kat claw cowl

forgot about tier depth, derp

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 06:23

#30

Zeddy

@Aureate

I imagine the wiki copied the info from the 4* hat and forgot to edit it. My Kat Hiss gives +5, I just checked it.

Edit: Screenshot.

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 10:31

#31

Aureate

@Zeddy

Ah, right, thanks a lot for the info. I thought that seemed a bit odd, given the fact that Black Kat is on par with the other standard 5* stuff and that if any helmet would warrant a lower health bonus, being a glass cannon as it is.
I guess now the wiki needs editing again. xP

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 15:39

#32

Batabii

Why do people keep bringing

Why do people keep bringing up helmets? It says right in the topic "armor". Kat hats are irrelevant.

Wait, I thought the boss armors were snarbolax, arcane salamander, ice queen, and almirian crusader. There's SIX shadow lair sets??

That said, remove heavenly iron from my list. This is the priority for my SL gear:

Snarbolax

Mercurial Demo

MAYBE arcane salamander

Sun, 02/24/2013 - 16:13

#33

Zeddy

@Aureate

I figured it out. The crafting station is in T2, so the health gets reduced on all armour. Just head down to Moorcraft and look at your Snarby cap there.

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 10:25

#34

Forumchat

lick

because armor alone is not awesome enough, and makeing new thread for discussing shadow helmets later is redundant.
moreover, mentioning non-shadow resistant SL gears here is also irrelevant, keep it back to the right track.

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 02:26

#35

Batabii

Yes but it's not helping my

Yes but it's not helping my original topic of what ARMORS to use. I already have two (and a half) shadow helmets.

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Looking into shadow armor