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Introducing the y-axis

7 replies [Last post]
Thu, 02/28/2013 - 03:49
Monork

If you've played the mission "The Ancient Generator", you may recall your encounter with Razwog. Do you remember where he was? Up on higher ground, overlooking the room you're in. Lots of top-down or angled camera games have that sense of vertical depth that keep the levels compact and visually pleasing. So, why do levels in Spiral Knights play like a really elongated labyrinth with a ton of wasted space in between rooms? There's almost no feeling of a y-axis other than a few sloped corridors, but they're always so isolated from the rest of the level that they don't give the feeling that you're descending from where you were.

When have you ever seen that sort of thing other than in certain Wolver Dens and Scarlet Fortress--where rooms and areas are separated by height, rather than a lot of boring empty space? When I'm in what's supposed to be an "indoors" or "facility" level, it feels like the same "I'm suspended on a structurally unsound bridge maze hanging over blank nothing, but this time with really short walls around me" because the map designers apparently haven't been in any sort of building ever. The only levels that make use of all the space they have are the boss stratums--where things look more compact and to the point, rather than dragging out the gameplay with a bunch of long corridors--and only half of them are designed with a y-axis in mind. Most bigger buildings are built vertically, and for good reason, so why can't that be shown and replicated in the multitude of factories and compounds that can be found within the Clockworks?

This isn't a realism complaint, mind you. I'm not saying that Clockworks maps should be built like skyscrapers. This is more of a complaint about the extremely bland level design that puts me to sleep, and why it's necessary to have more than four directions available to the player in a 3D game that allows 6.

I know that Spiral Knights is due for a revamp of just about every important mechanic that makes the game, but level design is what immerses the player and keeps them in the exploratory mindset. I'm not sure what kind of executive decision it is as a game designer to break up the action and fun of your game with a million 30 tile-long corridors with no interesting scenery between areas, but it really needs to change to reflect the pacing of the game that the trailer shows off.

Please, I'm sick of hallways and being restricted to playing a 2D game rendered in a 3D engine.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 04:37
#1
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

The Spiral Knights engine doesn't actually support a y-axis very well. You could never, for instance, have one knight walk on a floor directly above another one.

Having two different height levels next to eachother also tends to invite buggy behaviour, but I think they've gotten most of that ironed out at this point.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 14:32
#2
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
Oh No! not the Y-axis!

actually, i always noticed the lack of tall dynamic things.

+1

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 15:17
#3
Klipik's picture
Klipik
+1

So this doesn't happen.

Thu, 02/28/2013 - 20:11
#4
Severage's picture
Severage

You mean, I can't shoot zombies that are on a ramp above me when I'm at the bottom with my AP anymore?

Many engines do not, or can not, have multiple height maps. I don't know what OOO uses to create Spiral Knights, but more than likely it's too much of a bother to fix a few small details. I know most, if not all, free game-creating engines out there don't or scarcely service multiple height-maps, as in most cases it's not direly needed.

It's the ol' trouble to reward balance scale. I haven't built a game myself, but from what I've seen, it's generally regarded as too much trouble and too little reward. Spiral Knights is not a massive open-world game like World of Warcraft that definitely needs multiple height-maps, you may not even realize there isn't a Y-Axis until you've played SK for a while.

~Sev

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 23:28
#5
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

"Please, I'm sick of hallways and being restricted to playing a 2D game rendered in a 3D engine."

Erm, aren't most MMOs like this? Even ones with tall buildings, there's no possible way to climb anything. You just walk into some stairs, watch a loading screen, then bam, you're in the "next floor up".

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 17:18
#6
Mookie-Cookie's picture
Mookie-Cookie
-1

Despite the fact the game's movement being in @D, the 3rd axis is used by the game. What you don't see is multiple heights.

As simple as it sounds, it presents quite a few problems. Namely, say you have two roads, which one goes up and one goes down. The two intersect (so it's like a twist). There's a knight on each road, standing at the intersection. From the top, the lower road cannot be seen, so that knight is hidden. However, from underneath, the upper road can be seen. By assumption, the knight on the bottom can see the top, but the top cannot see the bottom.

But! Let's assume the top takes up A LOT of room, and so covers the bottom while you're standing there. So you can see the top, but not yourself. Should the higher road be culled? If so, should objects up there also be culled? Or should they just float? If it's not culled, then it's not reasonable to have anything under there, as you can't see anything. So, no one would go there.

If the camera projection was like a TPS, different heights are more reasonable; but with a 3/4 view, they're.. just.. a headache.

and why it's necessary to have more than four directions available to the player in a 3D game that allows 6.
This isn't exactly fair.. the game allows you to move along 2 axis-es (?), and handles the 3rd by itself. So those extra 2 directions you mention ARE in SK. Just you can't manipulate it yourself (do we really need any jumping?).

with a million 30 tile-long corridors with no interesting scenery between areas, but it really needs to change to reflect the pacing of the game that the trailer shows off.
I half agree with this. SK's levels have terrain that is very linear. Flat surfaces, and flat ramps. However, you're making out the levels have nothing of interest in them. They're nothing to be amazed by, but they're not something that's overly boring, either. I doubt SK is intended to be a game that you're obsessed with. It seems more like something you play when you're bored of an evening; so it's simplistic design makes me easy to get into and understand.

Regrettably, having more interesting terrain would present problems with weapon mechanics (do waves go up/down hills, or do they stop? If they stop, you can't have too many hills... Bullets move straight forward, so being on a hill makes fighting as a gunner really difficult.. What about bombs? Do they just damage whatever is on the hill within the blast radius? If so, how do you determine what is on the hill, and not on the floor below the hill?).

@Severage: SK runs via Java. As there's no logo for an engine, I'd assume it's an in-house Java engine, with no name (the Spiral Engine? Skylark Engine?!).

Overall, as nice as the idea sounds, it presents way too many issues to be reasonable. For the current gameplay of SK, that is.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 18:59
#7
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
@Masterofkings

It's in-house, yes. I believe It's called the Clyde engine, which was largely developed by the one engineer they had back then.

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