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Gone downhill has it....

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Tue, 03/05/2013 - 05:22
Bloodfetish's picture
Bloodfetish

Been around since close to when it started(didnt play beta) and remember what SK used to be like..

But just form my occasional drop ins(usually during WOW maintenance nights) noticing more and more about how bad this game is getting, my opinions of course.

Last time i stepped in i asked around why arcade was dead, and everyone said missions. Some missions being repeatable for more then what you can get done in a dungeon run. Fair enough, this has always been about making every bit of energy being used to extract most possible CR.

Since then noticed only way to get in a pug group is through missions (even rare then if it isnt JK IMF or a group of stages that earn well).

Always seems to be a lowish geared player waiting when you join, usually greeted with "can i have "X" amount of "X" currency" for whatever reason.
Been asking them lately how long theyve waited for a player to join them. Varying answers of 10 mins-40 mins.
Within the first few groups of mobs you understand why. They have absolutely no idea about when to shield, when to back out of attack range, shield bumping or even how to spot when a enemy is telegraphing its attack.
Basically they seem to wait until someone joins to res them(every 5 secs when they die often) or to carry them through.

Got to 2nd floor of imf this time before i stopped ressing this player, a 2/3* cobalter.
He finally left coz he spent all his money ressing, since he couldnt wait till i cleared a room while he was dead before i ressed him(or id be ressing him 5 times per battle).
Before he left we had a chat, and like a few others before who have talked he said pretty much the same things when i asked 1 question.

Since i noticed how low his skill level was(the type to die maybe half as much in the first depth) and asked how he got the gear hes wearing and weapons.
Begging, selling all his materials/recipes and mission rewards. Pretty much the same answers each time.

There are those players that will succeed no matter what, and those that will fail, but just seem to notice those that expect to be carried are about the only ones youll find pugging it.
This is only my experiences with mission levels up to 7-1. Havent progressed further since i barely ever play, whereas before missions i would log on, spend my mist on my 7 accounts), use AH to sell a few items and pop in to talk to old friends.
No real urge to play more then maintenance days at the moment as theres basically nothing to do. Dont play often enough to get back into Vana runs as im a lil rusty and id expect top end stuff to floor me for the first few encounters till i get back into a rythem and remember everything about some of the fights. As most the people still active on my friends list just do that still(and alot of friendslist is dormant, most have quit) then it is either solo run(boring as hell) or pug it with 90% of the time people who havent got a clue.

Just wondering if im coming across the wrong people or thats just what this level of missions is full of if pugged., has arcade actually repopulated, or are people still avoiding what was most of the fun regardless of tier level.
Is SK bringing out anything else soon that is going to be populated that might get my attention back for more then the 2-4 times a month i can actually be bothered to log on.

No interest in playing a morpg if its never multiplayer or just with those SK has given free gear to in the attempt to keep them playing.
Can play online chess and be more interested then running the same things solo over and over again.

And id consider pvp but from the looks of the forums its still the same, a lil laggy, a lil imbalanced and mental. Although i am gunna try it tonight before log back out and most likely get an early nights sleep.

TL:DR - well, i guess u didnt read it then :-p

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 06:08
#1
Splinter's picture
Splinter
A simple solution to this

A simple solution to this problem may be to join a casual guild, at least you know somewhat of who you are playing with that way. PUGs are not very dependable as you may have noticed.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 06:13
#2
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

People are just incapable of managing their wealth and not runn- WAIT WAIT WAIT

THIS AGAIN.

FSC IS THE ONLY RUN WE CAN DO; I HAVE LEARNED MY LESSON; PLEASE DON'T HURT ME.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 06:18
#3
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
SPIRAL KNIGHTS IS EVIL!

Its a breeding ground teaching players to be noobs!
And when those noobs advance to more games, they will inflirtrate all the games on every platform!
We have to exterminate them before it goes out of hand!

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 06:25
#4
Bloodfetish's picture
Bloodfetish
Rarely play enough to be in a

Rarely play enough to be in a guild, and so far there doesnt seem like a reason to play much more then i do.
Got a few sets of 5*, can do any content so far ive tried(havent done shadow, seemed like a huge waste of ce).

Pvp(lockdown) would probably be the only reason id play if i had a group to play with constantly, jumped in was a lil fun(even tho i sucked lol, dont remember it being so fast :-p).
But 1 part of the game that could hold my interest for how long? Grind for more CE or just use my alts mist to make my main cash for a few more pvp items when i have WOW for pvp(RBG's on a few alts +WPVP arena bgs etc)

Best thing about this was the random pug arcades, finding a mix of skills and beating whatever appeared. If that returned i would log off wow more and do the occasional dungeon run, sure some of the groups were fail, but would still come out of the run having a bit of fun and not having to res.
Danger rooms were the most fun. half the group wipes, the other 1-2 just manage to scrape by, arena rooms etc..

Made a suggestion for a challenge room similar to danger rooms, no loot etc, just a scoreboard for most waves killed as they get stronger and stronger or more and more till you eventually wipe. Even if it cost a few hundred crowns as a crown sink i would still be doin that :-).
Randomized waves so no best gear set etc.

Only things they seem to add removes the incentive to play with any randoms. Same people (or solo at it seems these days) doin the same thing over and over is the best way to find new games.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 06:41
#5
Byas's picture
Byas

> Made a suggestion for a challenge room similar to danger rooms, no loot etc, just a scoreboard for most waves killed as they get stronger and stronger or more and more till you eventually wipe. Even if it cost a few hundred crowns as a crown sink i would still be doin that :-).
Randomized waves so no best gear set etc.

It's a bad idea, one that would already be born dead. It would just get abandoned like the arcade since you would pay something to get nothing in exchange (nothing in terms of items/currency, I know that you get the fun but... so you do on the arcade).

But getting back to the topic of "Missions x Arcade", I guess OOO has already noticed long ago that we liked the arcade way more than missions, that the arcade is dead, etc, etc; There's really no need to bring this up again, as by the looks of it the arcade will remain a ghost town for a long time yet.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 06:45
#6
Il-Mono-Il's picture
Il-Mono-Il
/agree

Hi Byas!

=D

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 07:01
#7
Bloodfetish's picture
Bloodfetish
@ Byas Dont really care if it

@ Byas
Dont really care if it has a cost to enter or not, but just figured it would have some sort of negligible cost added just coz they can, the scoreboard(for bragging rights) would get that group of people who do it just for that reason.

@ topic
This isnt some sort of "bring back arcade" thread.
More a "bring back some reason to pug".

While alot of players dont like pugs, alot do aswell. Apart from people from the 2 main guilds i used to be on, most the people i met and befriended were from pug groups, either skilled and recruited for vana runs, or just fun to talk to.
Just seems more like a "play with guild or friends" or "solo" style game now.

If it doesnt change, then it doesnt, ill drop in once a week (unless no shutdown on wow) and talk to one of the few remaining friends, spend a lil mist slowly doing a mission or 2 and pvp, and then back to actually mmorpg's(ones where the focus is playing with other players).

I just remember this game used to be a lot of fun.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 07:45
#8
Bopp's picture
Bopp
party finder

Your criticisms are reasonable --- the PUG environment is not as healthy as it used to be --- but every time I look at the Party Finder I see many PUGs, including a couple in Tier 3. They can still be found, if you want them.

In your original post, you complain about beggars and incompetent players needing reviving. But there have always been beggars and incompetent players. I have not noticed any increase. If anything, I deal with fewer beggars than I used to.

I don't know you, but here's my guess as to what's going on: Everything you could do in the old days, you can still do. But you no longer want to do it, because you've done it so many times, and you know what to expect too well, and it's boring. It's not so much that the game or the community has changed, as it is that you've changed. That's too bad, but all good things must end --- or at least go on hiatus until new content is released.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 08:08
#9
Heavy-Dragon's picture
Heavy-Dragon
Since the community has diversified-

Through the games introduction through both Steam and Newgrounds, different types of players are beginning to migrate to this game of a certain age group and skill level. Unfortunately, the age group that is now being drawn to this game is heavily influenced by the conception that they should be handed everything they want and impatience.

This heavy influence, though, is not a -complete- one. I have met some genuinely skilled players that were simply looking for someone to help them with a mission that was just too difficult for them to handle alone (Candlestick Keep, for instance). So there are some glimmers of hope in the PUGs.

Nowadays though, usually only older players dive into the arcade. Newer players tend to see it as too much of a hassle and just do missions.

I wouldn't discourage you from doing PUGs, though. If you find one person you enjoy playing with in every 10 PUGs, you'll have a reliable team's worth of people in 30 runs. Just know that the age bracket of people who have noticed this game has widened significantly towards the younger years.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 09:40
#10
Sir-Tuddle's picture
Sir-Tuddle
@Bopp I think it's pretty

@Bopp
I think it's pretty much the opposite; there are more beggars now than ever. Back when this game was still new you could pretty much run up and talk to anyone and you'd get a decent conversation. These days the only ones who actually talk to people outside their friends list or guild more often than not turn out to be beggars.

@OP
A couple of friends and I still hit the arcade once in a while, I can add and invite you next time we go if you want.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 10:30
#11
Dragneel-Wiki's picture
Dragneel-Wiki

Sorry to be off-topic, but I must ask.

What is PUG?

Thanks. :3

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 10:41
#12
Heavy-Dragon's picture
Heavy-Dragon
PUG

Pick up group. Its a random group you are thrown into when you play missions. Any group that has not been pre-formed for clockwork play is a pick up group.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 10:48
#13
Dragneel-Wiki's picture
Dragneel-Wiki

Thanks a lot Heavy! You have expanded my knowledge. ^__^

/hugs

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 11:03
#14
Eltia's picture
Eltia
Cooperstown, ND

OP has some interesting and truthful observation at the state of SK. To sum it up:

  • dead arcade / clockworks. Instead we got looping of a very small percentage of the missions. e.g. FSC;
  • beggars;
  • new players lacking skills or basic ability to manage themselves;

Sadly, these are not isolated incidents according to what I see. I think the 3rd issue is most problematic. The discord between veterans and beginners is alarming. When the game mechanic becomes more complicated (e.g. with introduction of Battle Sprites), the learning curve would become steeper and there is this risk of new feature not appealing to veterans and the beginners find it too difficult to pick up new skills.

In our guild, we have an informal buddy system to keep new players up to speed. But we could help so many at a time due to time constraint. Now compounding with the Dev's mentality that big guilds should be rewarded more. This creates a problem because 1. small guilds need new members and so they nurture their new recruits; 2. new recruits see the more rewarding opportunities in big guilds and they will jump ship when the opportunities come. Result: big guilds become bigger at the expense of smaller guilds.

This is not the end of the problem, however. Veterans (like OP) see the problem of the server and look at SK's competitors. They found SK less and less appealing. Results are often more drain on the veteran population (they stop playing or they only return when there are significant new contents). So the discord between veterans and beginners become larger as a result and we see the lack of skills problem as mentioned above.

TL ; DR. Guild Hall design has a long, lasting impact that start to show its ugly tail. Instead of promoting larger guilds, the Devs should look into ways to diversify guild sizes. So big guilds could often something beneficial that would not hamper the development of smaller guilds.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 11:07
#15
Aegix-Drakan's picture
Aegix-Drakan
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Made a suggestion for a challenge room similar to danger rooms, no loot etc, just a scoreboard for most waves killed as they get stronger and stronger or more and more till you eventually wipe. Even if it cost a few hundred crowns as a crown sink i would still be doin that :-).
Randomized waves so no best gear set etc.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I'd go for that, if they gave some kind of reward or didn't have a cost.

Otherwise there would be no point... Honestly, I'd prefer the no-cost-no-reward model, just so I could play a bit even when out of Mist.

-
I've only just started playing again this weekend (Quit a bit over a year ago, didn't have a single non-0* weapon and got frustrated with alchemy, not knowing there was an auction house), and I haven't had too many issues in public games. I've done about 4 runs via the party finder, and only one was bad (jumped in, guy opened danger room right after, we started ok, he abandoned me, leaving me to fend for myself, I died, and I wasted 25 mist in there before deciding it wasn't worth it).

The others were all ok. Made 2 new friends who aren't bad either. Dunno why you're getting all the bad players.

But yeah, I have noticed a lot of beggars. But I've also seen a lot of honest players who don't ask "Gimme CE plz" and instead ask "how do I earn crowns quickly?" "This weapon will eat up all my money and I'm not sure it's worth it...should I buy this weapon? Wait, you said alchemy is cheaper than buying? How do I do it?" and other legit questions. Heck, one player when I first got back into SK noticed I still has the basic gear and gave me a free frost gun without me even saying a word because, hey, he had no use for it (Literally he said "Wait, you still have a proto sword? What's your equipment? ...Oh wow, nothing? Here, I got a frost gun that's not bound. Go on, take it, I'm not using it").

Maybe I'm just on at a better time, or something. Or maybe as a re-newb I don't notice it as much. But I don't think things are that bad.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 12:02
#16
Tin-Foil-Hat's picture
Tin-Foil-Hat
Youre saying that Spiral

Youre saying that Spiral Knight is going downhill fast when you still play World of Warcraft ? Oh lawd. Sorry i have to pick on this for a moment.

Previous World of Warcraft player here (7-8 years). This game is doing far better things than World of Warcraft has done in the much smaller time that it has been out. We asked for Guild Halls and Home in World of Warcraft since Vanilla, have we seen them ? Nope. Thats just one example. Free gear on Spiral Knights ? Hardly. World of Warcraft though, thats free gear galore. You can get top end gear from the Black Market and never ever even have to set foot inside a raid, or you can always do a few dungeons and get badges for free gear, or theres raid finder which is the easiest free gear.

World of Warcraft is a horrible game with an even worse community, im surprised you actually had the guts to bring up that you still play that game. I wont even go into the player skill requirement for World of Warcraft, probably because there isnt one anymore.

@ Eltia - Beggars are problems in every game, and the skill requirement is pretty large for this game. Theres just big learning gaps that you have to get over in this game, which IS a good thing in my opinion. My first time doing Vanaduke pre-levels and the boss fight itself, i kept dying. (Damn wheels of doom running me over and not knowing how to deal with massive amounts of adds). My second time in was a whole other story, i had a great team that knew exactly what they were doing and i learned from playing with them. (Shout out to Dazikas and a few of his friends for being such great players and showing me how its all done.) Ever since that place is a piece of cake.

I also disagree that arcade is dead, i run arcade alot. Infact i recently made a killing selling materials. Arcade is great for materials, something group runs and missions arent. Though it could use some more incentive to play it (Maybe random token drops and very rare cosmetic items on the prize wheel after completing tiers of arcade). Tier 3 Arcade is probably the most appealing simply for the chance at the Drakefang Shield.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 12:23
#17
Koffin-Kat's picture
Koffin-Kat
I agree with Bopp. The only

I agree with Bopp.
The only thing that really annoys me is that players rarely use the Arcade because of the missions.
I really hope something will be done about it at some point.

It's true that thanks to the missions, "noobs" now have easier access to 3* gear. Although if they're downright bad players, they won't be getting very far and probably quit playing.

There have always been noobs, players with no common sense whatsoever and beggars in SK.

I've met this person who seemed to be OK at first. Then we did a few missions together and god did he suck at it. Running through the spikes, running right into the retrodes' attack beams, running right into every possible danger the Clockworks have to offer.
I told him to be careful, told him not to do this and that, to which he replied: "I know." Then he proceeded to happily run into another floor spikes.
"Enough is enough," I said to myself and never did a mission with this person again :)

On the other hand, I was helping another knight with his T2 missions the other day, and it was kind of a nice, easy run.
He did die several times, but that was probably because he didn't have very strong EQ and didn't have the experience. When I told him to be careful about something, he actually listened to my advice and at least tried to do something useful.
People like this just need the experience and they'll be OK on their own.

Anyway, the point is, that there are both good and awful players. Maybe it also depends on the time you are usually online? :)

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 12:49
#18
Kitty-Softpaws's picture
Kitty-Softpaws
Missions are dead too. such

Missions are dead too. such an annoying cost to player socialization just to preserve that awful stupid energy system. f2p players populate a big portion of this game; majority of party socializing come from f2p players.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 12:56
#19
Eltia's picture
Eltia
Cooperstown, ND

Beggars in SK, like in their real life counterpart, are social phenomenon. When distribution of wealth is out of balance or the risk of begging (which is usually very low) is lower than the benefit of the donation they would get in the process, people would do it. So the question is: how do you make begging more risky or the reward less attractive. It's a topic worth another thread but the point is that beggars would always be around because it has its root in social. e.g. as long as this game's reward is still highly designed around "chances", it would always encourage people to make a quick buck (by begging), make whatever risky investment they want to (e.g. rolling UV) and repeat. As a result, I do not rank the beggar problem as severe as the problem of people lacking skills.

Arcade is dying because as some veterans put it nicely. If you want any kind of meaningful income in SK, there is only one game in town and that's called FSC. Mission system (including Hall of Hereos) makes it easier by providing an instant warp to FSC footstep. It used to be that there was a delicate balance between recipe farmer and FSC farmer. The former makes their way to Basil and let the latter takes over. Mission system, while making things more friendly and providing more context to the game, destroyed that delicate balance. Arcade is dying because of this disruption.

Skills required for SK. Put it this way, right now it's relatively easy to pick up (everyone can hit mobs with a stick) and moderately difficult to be good at it (bombers require more planning than the other two classes). When game mechanism gets more complicated (which I'm sure it would), expect more extreme distribution between the elites and the mediocre. The norm would become fewer and fewer because they either couldn't climb the curve or they just don't see the rewards are there.

I believe Three Rings made several "bad calls" on their design in the past 12 months.

  1. mission system neglects the balance between receipt and boss stratum farmers. If HoH is to stay, Basil needs to provide more incentive so people would continue visit them. (Providing recipes for token equipment aren't enough.)
  2. guild hall features favour large guilds. The assumption here seems to be that veterans would naturally prefer and therefore belong to large guilds;
  3. the SK reward system continues to rely on chances. e.g. BK has become a grinding fest, accessories still largely based on a lottery system. This is a bad model because it encourages short term gain and not longer term establishment in the game.
Tue, 03/05/2013 - 13:16
#20
Kitty-Softpaws's picture
Kitty-Softpaws
The only one thing that I

p

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 13:32
#21
Aegix-Drakan's picture
Aegix-Drakan
Hmm....It seems that the

Hmm....It seems that the missions being repeatable and giving good rewards/motivation to replay them is a major contributing issue, specifically in emptying the arcade...

They allow you to repeat missions, I assume? That sounds like a terrible idea... Surely it would be better to allow you to only play through once, or better yet, give you no rewards for replaying it (including drops and money)

And does one mission actually give you a shortcut to the jelly boss levels?! 0_o Why would anyone pass that up? I'm pretty new, but even I'm aware that those levels have the reputation of being the best place to grind for crowns.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 13:50
#22
Njthug's picture
Njthug
I just want to let you know when we together we can take it slow

Just some random thoughts:

Guild vs Randoms idea:

Most guilds in this game even those tiny ones you rarely know everyone in the guild so you do have some randoms etc. So at the end of the day you can join a guild and it will kinda be like doing a pug run, but the only similarity is you guys have the same guild name under your knights.

Doing Pug Runs:

I rarely dog Pug runs since I honestly find it somewhat annoying in my case I usually get ask for money or well players turn all gushy. Regardless, when I do pug runs it is usually with 1 or 2 guild mates and a random and we all play some horrible mini-games well horrible in most players eyes. For example: Who can kill the random the most? Who can die the most? Who can find a way to troll the party the most?, but yes that is just a few or majority of us.

Why I like Pug Runs:

I join pug runs if I need to gain some quick heat a jelly run or a Vanna run is the best way to gain heat from other players. If you are a skilled player it is very easy to carry a few randoms who may not be as skilled through jelly king or vanna.

Idea of Guild Halls Killing Small Guilds:

No this is not true. Why do I say this Echo of Silence is 1 of the smallest guilds in this game, and this update did not kill us. Looking at other guilds such as Rogue, The Night Watch, Auroa, and many other guilds they seem to be alive as well. The guild hall functions gave guilds a way to work together to reach goals. The great thing about the guild hall update is members can actually work together to reach goals.

Now a great example is the Statues:

Echo of Silence being the small guild it is I am certain we had about 72 players in our Guild when this feature came out, and as a guild all of us kept grinding bosses together. I am certain a few of us stayed up countless days just to help with the grinding of bosses for materials. We are very small compared to guilds such as: Unity, Impervious, Jempire, and well all those other HUGE guilds, but we managed to get all our statues and well end up being the first guild to have the statues done the right way. (Sorry folks to have the Rom Twins sadly you need two). I do not know about you, but I never experienced such an update in Spiral Knights which really asked everyone in a guild to pitch together to reach x goal.

*You can argue that Echo of Silence is not like any other guild due to the players we have and well wealth our players have accumulated, but folks all of us came from a mixture of other guilds. I do believe majority of our core members have been guild masters, officers, veterans, or members in other guilds, but our recruiting methods and seeking out talent is what we focus on*

Arcade Dying:

I do believe the arcade (Clockwork levels) are getting a bit boring. I would honestly love to see a lot more clockwork levels added on *I do not mean boss runs* Just new clockwork levels, but then again I do find it sad at times that a lot of knights never experience a full clockworks run since they are worrying about profit*

Arcade runs a good Tier 3 Run can net you about 10k to 12k+ Crowns --- The cost of doing the run is a bit more, but if you get some nice material drops well it kinda pays for itself then *If you complain Dragon scales, primal ores, sparks of life etc.* are hard to sell let me know I buy all 5* materials excluding those common ones, but hey if you hate my prices feel free to search for another buyer.

Back on Topic:

Why do players choose not to Pug?

Like many players suggested it is easier to do runs with guildmates and close friends. Starting out in Spiral Knights you are not given this option (I know this since I was doing pugs back in beta). I ended up making a lot of friends by doing some random pug runs, and one of them liked me a lot he invited me into his guild....after that I found Dogrock and we fell n love we now own a house in San Fran where we secretly are stalking Nick....

More advance players or older players tend not to do pug runs since they have a group of friends or guildmates to do runs with.

Those who do not have this group of friends or guildmates tend to be the newer players in this game and sadly they will need to start out just like everyone else, and try to make friends n figure it all out from their.

Those players who are older players with no friends or a guild well they might have been anti-social or just seemed like a noob in the eyes of many, but hey they can always apply to a few guilds. (Try joining Jempire a very active guild they accept practically anybody)

Oh Side Argument:

Guilds will not let me join since I am not a 5* player all top guilds require you to be 5*, that is false I know a few guilds that will let you in with 3* to 4* gear which I consider pretty good guilds to be a part of.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 14:22
#23
Pawsmack's picture
Pawsmack
@OP/Bloodfetish

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is... If you're complaining about Spiral Knights you can either help by going to the Suggestions part of the forums like everyone else or you can just quit Spiral Knights and play some other game during other WoW maintenance's.

EDIT: You haven't done a Shadow Lair with your pals yet? That's one of the most challenging parts of the game... Also one of the funnest. You should try one. Jussayin.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 14:34
#24
Byas's picture
Byas

> Echo of Silence is 1 of the smallest guilds in this game
> Echo of Silence
> smallest guilds

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/059/143/Ohwow.jpg

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 14:38
#25
Kitty-Softpaws's picture
Kitty-Softpaws
pug runs are important. pug

pug runs are important. pug runs are a flexible way to find a party on the player's schedule, and not on their friend's or guild's schedule (meaning when they want to/have time to). my guild and friends don't always agree to do the runs that i want to do. and not many people have many friends or are in guilds; pugs are a good substitute to party finding, and a main way to have a party. fsc is boring. players put greed above fun, so ye, pugs are also dead.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 16:41
#26
Il-Mono-Il's picture
Il-Mono-Il
What NJ said...

... Is true (not about they GH hehehe).
But i see new knights starting like me 17 months ago. This is hard to notice sometimes, but "all we need is just a little patience ..."

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 19:56
#27
Autofire's picture
Autofire
@Njthug

Like my guild....

Heck I let T1 players in and help teach them to learn the ropes. By the time they hit T2 they know a bit more than the average 2* knight and don't die as often. The only reason things don't go hectic and like "I invited this guy and he barely got his 3* gear!" is because I use guild rank as a method to show Tier. (Recruit = T1, Member = T2, and Veterain = T3. You can be T3 and be recruit though...tier is only one of the requirements.)

Currently I do pug sometimes in hopes to find a good guild member. My guild particularly likes doing Arcade runs, and that's sorta what we are all interested in.

@OP

Pug-ing is all down to luck. You can end up with noobs who won't listen to any advice, ("You know, when you die I can revive you. You'll save on ener-BANG....nvm....") but there are some truely nice, reasonable people out there who play for the fun of it. Even after these 2 years I still find it fun to venture into the clockworks and find a new scenario room. (Scenario rooms don't appear in missions! I've finally found snipes in the clockworks, btw. ;) ) I've sometimes been led to believe that OOO is actually adding to the clockworks almost every patch, but it's all behind the scenes- it's for the players to find, explore, and enjoy.

Heck, I still don't have my last prestige badge (just got a new one!) and I have still not faced the acursed king of Almire in the depths of the shadow lairs. I still have many strategies to produce and perfect. Going through the same thing over and over again "zombifies" you and causes you to look down a cone of riches. This severely hurts how much of the game one will ever see.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 23:05
#28
Zopyros-Il's picture
Zopyros-Il
Beep Beep Boop

I really like what Autofire said and I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that PUG games are important.

PUG games are what most people do. Honestly most people wouldn't have run into the friends they have now if it weren't for running into them randomly in the Clockworks. And as others have said, it's always available no matter your schedule. So even if their friend's are busy, players should be able to have a fun run in the game without having to deal with beggars, AFK party leaders, total newbies, complete idiots, or trolls.
One thing to help against low-skill players would be to have a shield and defense tutorial added into the game. Honestly, a LOT of players don't understand the concepts of blocking and shield bumping or even about the different damage types and why they're important. The missions and Hahn does a rather mediocre job of detailing what you need to do for proper defense and attack.

As for what Autofire said, doing Arcade runs and finding scenario rooms, seeing and trying new things is what keeps this game (and the players!) alive. There already is a LOT in the Arcade that people haven't seen, for example I didn't even know it was possible to find snipes in the Clockworks and I've been playing for more than a year now! Something cool I found myself was a large sword stabbed into the ground with "constellations of stars" along its blade. I've never seen that before and I'm sure a lot of other people haven't seen it either.

The biggest problem right now is just how in-your-face the Missions are. They're important to the story, but they shouldn't be the sole means of gameplay which a lot of people sadly treat them as. Something EXTREMELY simple that OOO can do to promote more Arcade runs is to simply have the Arcade tab be the first thing you see when you log in.

Other ideas!
- Bulletin board in the Arcade where players can post their Clockworks discoveries! Similar to how the game shows the activities of your friends with boss kills and such, there should be a "discovery" tally as well. Hell, make it give rewards if you find them to add even more incentive into exploration.
Make it even more fancy by having the game snap a photo itself and show it in the newsfeed for your friends, just so they can see the awesome stuff you find!
- Revamp the mineral deposits and Gate creation to be more user friendly. Right now it's set up for people to just dump their minerals into the Gate and leave OR to sit there and deposit your minerals one-by-one into the Gate. What would you rather do?
Make there be a general mineral dump area that players can dump all the minerals into and get paid for, but also make a special area for dedicated players to sort through the minerals and create the Gates. Sorting through the minerals and creating the Gates would be time-consuming but offers much more control to the people who actually care what Gates are generated. These players would be paid a little bit for their services, naturally.
- Going a little bit off of the previous idea, make a new mini-game that involves the minerals and Gate creation. It's boring as hell as it is now if you wan to sit there and create a Gate, why not make it more fun?
Maybe a LD type game where players deposit minerals into their base/Gate for points like a one flag CTF?
Maybe a BN variant where players blow up minerals, collect and deposit fragments, and get powerups depending on the color?
Maybe something else entirely?

Anyways, I've got a lot more to say on the Arcade, missions and everything else that OOO is neglecting at the moment, but I've already got quite a text wall here. Best we can do right now is to wait for the Battle Sprites to come out and hope that afterward things get more balanced out.

Oh and is anyone else saving up their minerals as well as materials for the Battle Sprites? I get the sneaking suspicion the Sprites may be able to use them in some way...

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 07:58
#29
Eltia's picture
Eltia
Cooperstown, ND

It's funny when I read what Njthug's comment on EOS being one of the smallest guilds. Then I realize, hey, it's actually me who took something too seriously.

Anyhow to give people some context, Njthugs and I had a "small" disagreement (small in Njthugs' language) regarding why big guilds are bad because when they blow up, the damage is bigger and lasting. I feel the Devs are flawed to believe in "too big to fail", because as shown in 2008 financial meltdown, that simply isn't true and to continue build SK onto this flawed assumption is neither productive nor in the best interest of Three Rings nor its customers.

I received a /tell from Njthugs personally, to remind me to read certain forum post he made a while ago. I read it and assured him that the theory I posted wasn't direct towards his guild (EOS) but to the Devs (whoever responsible for the design of GH features). It's unfortunate EOS (and possibly Njthugs personal interest) get caught in the crossfire which I'm sorry to hear about. I also sent a thank you to EOS for opening their GH to public.

Now that the readers have the proper context (and thanks NJ for your hilarious post, I'm sure some people would enjoy it). Relating back to what OP said. I meant, sure, those problems aren't new. Some problems, yes, they would continue to be around (beggars). The bigger problem is how to balance the benefits between small and big guilds, and how not to design GH features to continue to promote uncontrolled growth on guilds (which are like cancer). That I stand firmly believe is the root of some of the problems that OP mentioned.

The better way to retain Veterans is to not to assume they want to belong to big guilds, and to reduce the amount of randomness in the game overall (randomness discourages longer term establishment and make it harder to retain veterans because they don't see their stake being protected enough). When more veterans are retained, their knowledge and skills would be able to pass on and we could expect skill of the new player population would gradually improve.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 10:43
#30
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
my 2 cents

You haven't done a Shadow Lair with your pals yet? That's one of the most challenging parts of the game

I beg to differ, they are simply the same path with extra mobs... Shadow Lair are on par with Danger mission, they are easy...

The hardest part about Shadow Lair is Unknown Passage... Which when you take a Glacius/Combuster/Voltedge with an Acheron and a Flourish, it becomes relatively easy (for me as swordmen). With Nitronome, Venom Veiller and Shivermist it's a spawning dead trap. And gunners you simply have to get your AP and Senteza and voila!

Most difficult part of the game made easy just by preparing yourself correctly...

As much as I love this game (1200+ hours in it) I have to agree with OP

Arcade PUG was fun, made a lot of friend via RJP runs when I started. And the run lasted a while so you could get to know each other.

I remember I used to spam the "join group" button for RJP late at night and was happy to find someone to run RJP with (and the few depths before the actual boss)

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 11:51
#31
Bopp's picture
Bopp
it is easy to run a random RJP party, even now

Again, I generally agree with the sentiment, but I'd like to point out that it is easy to run a random RJP party, even now. Just start the Sovereign Slime mission and leave the party open. Whenever I've done this, I've had a full random party in a couple of minutes. Of course, it may vary somewhat with time of day.

I know that doing RJP through missions lacks some of the charm of doing it through the Arcade. But that is not the real reason you don't enjoy RJP anymore. The real reason is that you've simply done RJP too many times. You are nostalgic for the days when it wasn't boring. Isn't that so?

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 12:17
#32
Amanzi's picture
Amanzi
Well, I've lately been hooping in on PUG Arcade

But if I will almost always waste my energy doing PUG prestige and PUG boss missions. I'm also willing to go on runs with friends if I have the time.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 13:48
#33
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
my 2 cents

Again, I generally agree with the sentiment, but I'd like to point out that it is easy to run a random RJP party, even now. Just start the Sovereign Slime mission and leave the party open.

You do realize that I used to join group and not wait while being the party leader. I used to jump into people party to help them, which is not worth it today, unlike before where most people used PUG on a 6-7 depths quest rather than joining some beggars for 3 depths boss "lair" that I'll never see again. And that I don't even need help to get through

And let's not go into FSC PUG..........................

The fact that the mission and boss lairs have become the way to go makes the Arcade useless and the system behind it more than useless...

I know that doing RJP through missions lacks some of the charm of doing it through the Arcade. But that is not the real reason you don't enjoy RJP anymore

Hall of hero killed it too.... No point in running Arcade for recipe anymore, the recipe market is just dead and all over the board for THOSE recipe (Polaris/DA/Sentenza, etc.)

The real reason is that you've simply done RJP too many times

I still run competition with my friend on who can beat RJP the fastest... I still do RJP for the statue in my guild hall and never runs PUG anymore... The one time I did I had to explain the whole game to newcomers -_-

There was only one time that I joined a RJP PUG and was with a 5* guy, went totally fine, had a blast ^ ^

Edit: I used to do RJP and Twins just to go for recipe, get couple of worthy recipe and sell them for a 1k cr profit. It was a way to make the RJP a little more profitable while being random a little. And when someone messed with the mineral system enough to get some decent arenas before the RJP depth, it was awesome.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 14:25
#34
Grittle's picture
Grittle
I really think OOO should

I really think OOO should negate 50% crowns payments and 100% of heat payments and materials from missions

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:07
#35
Burq's picture
Burq
hmm...

Why not just make missions only doable once a day instead of nerfing the crown or material/heat payments on missions?

You know, making more monsters or adding more levels exclusive to the arcade would definitely get me playing it more.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 08:56
#36
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
my 2 cents

Why not just make missions only doable once a day instead of nerfing the crown or material/heat payments on missions?

This is one of the most stupid thing I have heard so far

This would = to ce being worth so much because nobody can pour cr into the game via F2P'ing

FSC run? RJP run? Twins run? When I farm I do them 5 to 10 times a day so an obvious NO to your awful idea

You know, making more monsters or adding more levels exclusive to the arcade would definitely get me playing it more.

The goal is to repopulate Arcade the way it was before, adding more monsters would mean more monster in the missions and there are ALREADY levels exclusive to the arcade and nobody goes there anymore...

Missions are the new system, if you kill it you kill the game

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