Spiral Knights - Bonus for using unpopular weapons!

Bonus for using unpopular weapons!

25 replies [Last post]

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 22:05

Jackaline

Statistically analyze which weapons aren't being used, and give a bonus for using them. Not simply equip, either, but actual hits on target! The weapons that would give the bonus would be computed dynamically, so they would change over time. They would also be limited to the appropriate star level, so you don't get a bonus for trying to get kills with a proto gun, because that's just silly.

They might be several bonuses:

Using a weapon with the same effect (fire, frost, etc) would give a "Raageee" bonus.
Using a damage type that the zone is strong against would give a "Against All Odds" bonus.
Using a weapon that's simply unpopular would give "The One Percent" bonus.
Using an underpowered weapon, even though I said no because this was silly, would give a "That's Just Silly" bonus.

This could also apply to armor, and unlike weapons, it wouldn't be limited to your current star level, so proto armor for all!

As I said, statistically, so if people are just trying to use the first piece of gear they come across, they will not get a bonus because of the zillion others trying to do the same thing. Might want to limit these to solo runs, or friends/guild only runs.

edit:

Here's some more detail, which I will freely edit if a better idea comes up:

Bonuses

It would depend on the Tier. It also would differ per what gave you the bonus. "Against All Odds" would be harder to achieve than "Raageee" after all, because you would be doing significantly less damage (Then again, "Against All Odds" wouldn't usually affect all denizens of a dungeon). "The One Percent" corresponds to the underpowered weapons, which might also make them applicable to "Raageee" and "Against All Odds" bonuses.

Since the idea is to provide an incentive, I'm thinking each might correspond to a fraction of the level's crown payout out or a fraction of the elevator cost (if you don't have an elevator pass). To make it fair, all members in the party would need to wear gear applicable to get the bonuses (remember, this is for solo/friends/guild, not pugs).

To put some rough figures out, using only level payoff:

"Agains't all odds" : x1.2 bonus
"Raagee": x1.1 bonus
"The One Percent": x1.2 bonus
"That's Just Silly": 1 crown, and a token or item you can parade around town that will expire in 1 day.

With bonuses being additive between themselves for a total of a possible bonus (i.e. x1.1 + x1.2 = 1 + 0.1 + 0.2 = x1.3 ) on the payout received (heat and crowns). Of course, Three Rings might want to start out lower and adjust accordingly to see how it works out. "The One Percent" might also accrue value if people still don't choose to use it, up to a maximum of x1.5, and it might also only be available of a first to arrive gets it basis.

How are bonuses caculated?

They are calculate dynamically per level or group of levels, so that you know what will give you the bonus before the level starts. FSC would have separate statistics than a level dynamically chosen for an arcade run

"The One Percent" would be chosen randomly from pool of unpopular weapons or armor chosen from the LEAST popular (least used in that level). It might be the case that for some reason or another, a weapon or armor might want to be excluded from this list, but this should be doable by having a list of such weapons.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 22:16

Hyiaku

Umm... CoD names that were rejected?

First off, I'm gonna say it sounds like ur trying to make this call of duty. Seriously there is a reason there is attack spend and charge time and so on and so forth. It's because there are weapons that are supposed to be different and not many people use them because they are: A: not used by many people so they just follow the crowd. or B: they just don't like how they attack.

Second, do u kno how overpowered this sounds? Rraaggee bonus sounds is mostly going to be(just guessing here) where u have the charge aura around u except u move faster and ur attacks are stronger and so on and so on.

Third is lack of detail. How do you earn these? Where can you earn them? Why would this improve the game? What would these bonuses do and how would they work? Stuff like that. The major and essential stuff.

Definitely just typed this up as fast as u can. -1 for me.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 22:33

Severage

I'm sort of assuming this was intended to be funny, but if not...

"Statistically analyze which weapons aren't being used, and give a bonus for using them."

Or since you're going through all that trouble, just balance them.

~Sev

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 22:45

Jackaline

... I haven't even played

@ Hyiaku

... I haven't even played call of duty ...

I hadn't even said what the bonuses might be. I was just thinking increased payoff, i.e. more crowns, crystals, or another roll. Not any actual boost.

> How do you earn these?

I just explained it ............. ..... ......... ......

> Where can you earn them?

If you have to ask .......

> Why would this improve the game?

Let me see: Increase the value of your arsenal, no matter what you craft. Adds a challenge if the game is already a breeze for you. Makes the game more fun.

> What would these bonuses do and how would they work?

Oh, now you ask? I thought you were happy just making up what they were going to be, and criticizing them.

They are incentives.

I found your criticism misleading, unfounded, and founded purely on the basis to criticize. -2

@ Severage

> If you are going to go through all that trouble ..

Boy, making a sum of weapon use data sure is hard!

> Just balance them.

I'm assuming this was intended to be a troll, but if not .... how about some details about how you expect to perfectly balance all the weapons?

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 22:56

Severage

When you say "give the weapons a bonus", I assumed you meant bonus damage. Which is why I said just balance them...if you're going to give them bonus damage.

It had not occurred to me that you meant bonus loot. In that case...some details on exactly what each of your previously-named bonuses would be nice. Like what does "Raaageee" do compared to "The One Percent"...etc..

1: Chances are the 'unpopular' weapons will also fit under the 'underpowered' weapons category, almost all the time.

2: The amount of FSC/KoA grinding will probably skew results, or other grinding such as RJP. Non-issue though, since that would just make people use non-ubiquitous items on those areas.

3: What is 'unpopular' in terms of statistics? Considering probably (throwing #s out there) 70% of players use Wolver sets, that would make...say, every? Other set out there 'unpopular'.

Other than that yeah...need details on bonuses.

~Sev

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 23:07

Hyiaku

Explain wat ur talking about

Ur suggestion lacks details and information. So yes I thought damage bonus and stuff like that. U need entails otherwise people won't kno what your talking about and just assume. Wen that happens u think they are rong and think they are off even though u pictured it ur head. Just because u kno what ur talking about doesn't mean everyone else will unless you have details.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 23:17

Zeddy

"What would these bonuses do and how would they work?"

You're really going to have to answer that one. Do they give more damage? More crowns? Are they perfectly useless like prestige? Are they just achievements?

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 23:26

Jackaline

Thanks for your second

Thanks for your second comment, it's much more constructive :)

> 1: Chances are the 'unpopular' weapons will also fit under the 'underpowered' weapons category, almost all the time.

That's why it's the intention to give a bonus. As to what it would be, I didn't give out a specific figure because it would depend on the Tier. It also would differ per what gave you the bonus. "Against All Odds" would be harder to achieve than "Raageee" after all, because you would be doing significantly less damage. "The One Percent" corresponds to the underpowered weapons, which might also make them applicable to "Raageee" and "Against All Odds" bonuses.

To put some rough figures out: "Agains't all odds" : x1.5 bonus, "Raagee" x1.3 bonus, "The One Percent" x1.2 bonus, with bonuses being additive between themselves for a total of a possible x2 bonus on the payout received (heat and crowns). Of course, Three Rings might want to start out lower and adjust accordingly to see how it works out. "The One Percent" might also accrue value if people still don't choose to use it, up to a maximum of x1.5

Of course, feel free to disagree with these rough figures.

> 2: The amount of FSC/KoA grinding will probably skew results

I also meant calculate dynamically per level or group of levels, so that you know what will give you the bonus before the level starts. FSC would have separate statistics than a level dynamically chosen for an arcade run.

> 3: What is 'unpopular' in terms of statistics?

I'm thinking have a pool of unpopular weapons or armor chosen from the LEAST popular (least used in that level), and randomly choose what gives the bonus from there. It might be the case that for some reason or another, a weapon or armor might want to be excluded from this list, but this should be doable by having a list of such weapons.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 23:48

Jackaline

Then again, "Against All

Then again, "Against All Odds" wouldn't usually affect all denizens of a dungeon, and the payoffs seemed too high, so I changed them around.

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 00:57

Severage

Just me, I don't like monetary rewards. Obviously it's better than something silly like bonus damage, but crown inflation is an ever-present issue when touching anything. I wouldn't honestly know what to put in its place (Other than heat, which goes with it), but that's just my take. Then again, using such 'ineffective' weapons could potentially take twice as long as normal, rendering the crown increase only useful for those who don't have the weapons that fit under the categories.

Just talking to myself, don't worry.

Dynamic calculations/order of least popularity sounds fine. I think Zeddy inadvertently brought this up, but I wouldn't mind these also being made into Achievements. The names already sound like Achievements anyway.

I just thought also that "Raaageee" is too broad to have much of any crown increase bonus...for instance, Combuster is one of the best (if not the best) Brandishes to use in FSC for damage. So, you'd get the benefit of using a very effective weapon, plus a 30% increase in crowns. Many Brandish-lines could work this way, such as Boltbrand for RT. I think 30% is a little too much for something so easy to achieve, unless I misunderstood what you wrote.

Finally, I had one more question. How would the players know which items would fit the proper criteria? "Raaageee" is obvious, but "The One Percent" wouldn't be readily clear which weapon is the least popular. I think this information would have to be displayed somewhere/somehow.

~Sev

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 01:59

#10

Jackaline

If it was an item that had a

If it was an item that had a duration, but that you could show off in haven, it could still motivate people. Whatever incentive works. I tried to rework CR payoffs so they were a bit less, so "Raageee" would be x1.1 .

Yes, the achievements would appear under a category in the hud :)

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 03:13

#11

Severage

Looking at your new

Looking at your new values...

I think they're pretty decent. I still worry about "Raaageee" if for nothing else than FSC (Even though it's just 10%), but not everyone uses combusters and FoVs, and more importantly PUGs wouldn't be affected, so it wouldn't matter for the vast majority of FSC runs.

Talking to myself again.

"With bonuses being additive between themselves for a total of a possible x2 bonus on the payout received (heat and crowns)."

^ I think this line needs to be changed to reflect your new crown award values.

Other than that...me gusta. I'm not original, I'm just a critic, so something relevant to parade with in Haven in specific would be good...maybe limited time Costumes, like the old Crown, or even a fun weapon. It would take more designing which is not preferable, but something AWESOME like a Party Ball on a Stick that explodes into confetti when you "Use" it in Haven. Except we don't hold our weapons out in Haven...

Eh, I dunno.

+1 though.

~Sev

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 03:21

#12

Zorbez

Stacking

Do the bonuses stack? If so, someone would just equip deadly shard bomb, neutralizer, winmillion and suda and get 4x bonus?

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 03:46

#13

Severage

@Zorbez:

I can't speak for the OP, but there's always this:

"To make it fair, all members in the party would need to wear gear applicable to get the bonuses"

So, unless you're soloing, it's highly unlikely more than 1 person would have that many 'hipster' weapons.

But for soloing, I'm almost certain that you can only get each bonus once. You could get all of the bonuses for 1.5x crowns, but for instance using DVS and Venom Veiler on the same zombie doesn't give you "Raaageee" x2. Up to OP, but I doubt it would work that way.

~Sev

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 07:59

#14

Little-Juances

If a weapon isn't used maybe it's because it's bad and needs a real buff, not a sarcastic "statistical" bonus.

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 08:12

#15

Jackaline

@ZorbezYou wouldn't be able

@Zorbez

You wouldn't be able to get an achievement / bonus more than once. You wouldn't be able to pick and choose which weapon you want either; It would be chosen randomly from a pool of least popular weapons, and would only be one (for that run, anyway).

@Little-Juances

And maybe not, and adding buffs left and right could just unbalance the game more. A lot of weapons are doable, but people never bother to try them. Look at Fang of Vog: with sufficient fire resistance, its charge makes it more than formidable.

> sarcastic "statistical" bonus

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 10:49

#16

Canine-Vladmir

ROARR!

Callin' an airstrike with ma Troika!

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 14:01

#17

Severage

"> sarcastic "statistical" bonus"

"I do not think that word means what you think it means."

I lol'd.

~Sev

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 14:40

#18

Little-Juances

Oh, hey according to

Oh, hey according to statistics, no one ever uses this flamberge, and I'm also fighting an oiler!!!!
But yay, these bonuses are totally worth it!!!11!!

Is that sarcasm?
-99% of the people will say yes. And there I made a statistic.

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 16:22

#19

Canine-Vladmir

^terrible statitics

Did you know that 1 in 7 students in Grades K-12 is either a bully or a victim of bullying?

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 16:31

#20

Softhead

^Seems not to get tha that was a example.

RRRRRRHHHHHHAAG!

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 16:35

#21

Canine-Vladmir

^ this guy STILL no get it

Did you know 2 out of 3 Americans are overweight?

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 16:56

#22

Meat-Muncher

I think it's an interesting idea. The only problem I can think of is with an increase of crowns, players would be more willing to buy CE at a higher price, probably making CE more expensive. If they actually did this, they'd probably have to have some sort of event that would drive people to spend more money on CE, balancing the crown to CE ratio.

...I hope that made sense...

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 20:52

#23

Severage

@Meat-Muncher:

That's the reason the bonuses were nerfed from a maximum of 2.0x to 1.5x if you got all the bonuses in one run. Most runs will be PUGs, not increasing the crown inflation problems, and runs that are coordinated likely will only have 1.3x tops.

~Sev

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 21:11

#24

Luguiru

I tried sitting through and reading this, then wanted to make a silly little puppet show with two guys where one is this thread and the other is someone who cares about legitimate equipment balance, but now I have gas.

If someone reminds me to care tomorrow I might have something for you.

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 21:36

#25

Meat-Muncher

Ahh gotcha...

Didn't read that part XD

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