Quadrouple healers... seriously?
Mon, 12/13/2010 - 21:57
(And I thought two of them was bad...)
I was soloing the arena today, all was well, until I hit the 3rd stage on depth 24 and had 4 healers on me. I managed to wipe out everything except the goblins, because at this point they are invincible. I've been trying to kill with a variety of strategies for an hour now, and wasted CE yet again (never doing that again, if there's over 2 healers on solo I'm gone). When you've got 3 thwackers, 2 bombers, 2 flamers, and the 4 mages on you, nothing permanently dies. Ever. Unless of course you kill the healers, but this is the (nearly?) impossible part.
Any one of these suggestions would make the 3rd stage of the Battle Arena reasonable for solo Knights:
- Remove the ability for healers to revive each other
- Put a limit on how many times a certain goblin can be revived
- Put a limit on how many times a healer can revive other goblins
- Make the max possible amount of healers in an arena equal to the amount of Knights in the party
- Only allow healers to revive other gremlins X time(s) per Y seconds
- Put a limit on how long a Gremlin body is available for revival (Evolution)
Doing something along these lines would make soloing the 3rd stage of the Arena reasonably possible. As of now, these gremlins could theoretically survive for eternity. As far as soloing goes, I don't think anyone but Exum and his almighty Sentenza can beat 4 healers with all that other junk running around. :/
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 13:17
#2
It's not that easy, believe me.
It's not that easy, believe me. You've got 3 Thwackers knocking you around everywhere, stunning you so you can't move, then you get suck in flames and set on fire from those nasty flamers, then there's the spikes you're getting pushed into and hurt every second, then the bombs from the bombers you can't even see because of flames and spikes, then there's the Magic Bolts the healers shoot at you (and with 4 of them they come at you like a super-buffed mobile MK3 Puppy). By this time your shield is totally gone and you are dead five times over. Did I mention the 4 healing circles they always have up when you're attacking, as well as the shields they put up which you get stuck in half of the time? Those definitely don't help. It basically doubles their health since they heal so fast inside of them, not to mention the fact that they heal each every half-a-second as well.
The obvious thing to do is target the healers first, like you said, but this doesn't work with a gun. I was shooting at them and only them non-stop for 20 minutes with a Blackhawk. I often managed to kill 2 if they were bunched up, only to have them revived a couple seconds later.
I've also tried running in and taking out the healers with a Dread Venom Striker and I'm lucky to get 2 of them here also. It doesn't work that way. As in the problem I mentioned in the first paragraph, it's chaotic. If you get stuck in the mob you are dead meat.
The real trouble is the fact that there's such a huge mob, and if you get too close to it you're stuck and screwed. The reason it becomes so much easier with two people is because at least there's 2 targets for the gremlins to go after. However, with one target, if you get too close they dogpile you and you're dead.
So yeah, it's not being scared of taking damage, it's the fact that getting to close to the mob, let alone the healers which are always in the middle, will kill you regardless.
Of course there's always getting lucky, perhaps if all 4 are bunched up or something and you've somehow managed to keep your sword charged until the perfect moment and get all 4 with it, for example. My point is that it's too unreasonable for solo. If they want us to do things in groups, then why let us have a "Solo" option in the first place? I firmly believe that all gates should be reasonably possible solo. And I mean totally completed, not having to skip on the 3rd stage because you know you'll probably die. I know what I have mentioned is not impossible, it's just really ridiculous, and so I think these healers should be nerfed quite a bit (in regards to their reviving/healing capabilities).
Maybe another solution would be to only let them revive another goblin once every X seconds? I think 30 might be reasonable, but it is carried through their death and revival otherwise it wouldn't help at all. This way you could actually kill something for good, assuming you were fast enough, without having it pop up before your sword has even finished it's cooldown.
By the way, sort of as a side note, I'm pretty sure I've seen up to even 5 or 6 healers spawn before (it wasn't solo though), unless my eyes deceive me. I've also had absolutely none spawn before as well. I think it's totally random which types of gremlins you get. Perhaps it's even possible to have all 12 spawn as healers? o_o
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 15:35
#3
I agree that it's on the edge
I agree that it's on the edge of ridiculousness :P But then again, if the devs don't want to dynamically create mob spawns based on party size (and only alter the health of the mobs like now) then you'll always get situations with tight edges? And an Arena stage 3 battle is already supposed to be very hard, doing it solo can turn it to near insanity. Being faced with a wall isn't that amusing though, I've had it too before x.x
Towards healers, I don't see a very strict pattern in their reviving? Sometimes they revive immediately, other times they couldn't care less for a nearly a minute. Putting a time limit on when they can revive a mob might not be the answer either, since you can't quite keep track of which ones you've killed and which ones have already used their revive in the very recent past?
Perhaps a better thing would be that a killed mob only has an X seconds time frame in which it can be revived? Sort of the time window where the soul of the fallen travels to the afterlife? Just throwing something in here :P
-----
Towards the killing them:
I don't charge when killing the healers :P My armor gives me enough speed to be able to fully perform my Iron Carver's 3-hit combo (and thus interrupt enemy attacks) before they can pull off an attack. So I can simply charge in (at a good angle, important thing), smash away and knock them over very quickly.
Shield-wise: I only use it to "bounce off" nearby unwanted enemies, I don't quite use the actual defending value of it while killing the healers. Besides, it's not like the Swiftstrike Buckler has a lot of catching-power to offer anyway :P
An extra advantage of the Drake Scale is that it offers elemental and piercing defense. These include spikes, bombs and flamethrowers :P Just exactly what's needed. Although, the armor is only 3* so it's not a major advantage, but it seems to make some sort of a difference.
----
I don't think I've seen 5 or 6 healers before o.O At stage 2 I've had 4 healers before though, along with the jellies. That can be a real pain when the yellow ones managed to make it to the Gigantor stage xD
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 16:29
#4
Woops, I'm only talking about the 3rd stage solo here.
True, keeping track would be hard. I like the idea of the time frame as you mentioned, but my only issue with it is that they seem to revive each other immediately if they are close enough (even half the arena away they will zoom over). Plus they are basically always together and in the center of everything else - at least from my experience. It would add some good strategy though: you have to kill one and keep the rest away from it until it dies for good. Maybe 15 seconds? I'm not sure if this would make solo any easier, though, unless you had some poison weapon/pots and could take them out while they're poisoned and can't revive each other? (They need a poison gun.)
As far as killing them goes... I'm only talking about the 3rd stage solo here, sorry I should have made that clearer. Second stage I can wipe them out in less than a minute even if there's 4 healers. It's no issue here at all because there's only them 4 and one other gremlin (the giant slime can make it a lot harder though, but if you kill all the gremlin waves first it isn't a problem). The real trouble is the 3rd stage where there's 4 healers, and not just 1 other gremlin, but 8 of them (plus Alpha Wolvers). :S
If you get caught in the mob, there's always one of them attacking you and if you try to release your (probably already broken) shield, you get hit by something for sure and your attack is interrupted, especially if it's a Thwacker and they stun you. I don't charge either, but I figured that since charge doesn't get interrupted it seems, if all 4 are grouped together you might as well risk your life to own them, all at once (this has never even got close to happening for me though).
Anyways, yeah, I'm only talking about the 4 healers along with 8 other gremlins plus some other monsters (currently only present in stage 3 Battle Arena). I'll add that into the OP, since I forgot to make it clear before.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 19:08
#5
I think we're not doing a
I think we're not doing a good job conveying the gimmick of the Battle Arena. We don't expect most people to be able to complete round two of a BA, let alone 3. That's why there is an exit after the first, far more gentle fight. The idea is that you can press your luck for another round, but understand what you're getting yourself in to. By the time you reach round 3, especially on tier 3, you're talking one of the hardest challenges in the game. At that point, anything goes.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 20:04
#6
So we're not at all expected
So we're not at all expected to be able to complete the 3rd stage of the BA on our own? That's quite the motivation killer, but at the same time it feels assuring to know that even the 2nd stage is supposed to be that hard. The reason I've been trying so hard to defeat it is because there's no other goals to really go for, and I just plain thought you guys meant to make it expectantly accomplishable (but apparently not). I have yet to even find Vanaduke, let alone (hopefully) defeat him. Stage 2 is always pretty easy alone, but stage 3 can be nearly impossible alone if 3+ healers spawn. If you have 2 Knights in your party, though, 4 healers isn't even that bad. It's solo with 3 or 4 that's an issue.
Anyways, if we're not expected to complete it solo, I guess I'll stop wasting CE on revivals in the 3rd stage and just walk out after the 2nd one. Thanks for the clarification, Nick.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 20:43
#7
Duh
I think it was pretty obvious, after a few times in the 3rd arena, that doing them solo is suicide and not the idea behind arenas.
Then again the other day I went with Exum who is swimming on 5* gear, and the poor gremlins didn't stand a chance. So I dunno.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 20:45
#8
We don't expect most people
We don't expect most people to be able to complete round two of a BA, let alone 3.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 21:07
#9
> That's why there is an exit
> That's why there is an exit after the first, far more gentle fight
Last time I checked, you can't split the party. You can't have some people chicken out at the first elevator while others go on to the deadlier deeper fight. It's all or none.
Was "split the party" added? If you're the weakest in the group, and everyone else wants to take on all three rooms, and their advice is "Stay back, let us handle it"?
(They did, actually.)
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 21:59
#10
You gotta get a good set up,
You gotta get a good set up, one with bomb actually do great.
Then again if you go berserk or kamikaze it works even better..... pretty sure the 3rd one needs you to have a party for a good chance anyway.
Heck, even nick said the 3rd room is the "anything goes" tier.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 22:15
#11
That solves my own internal issues with the 3rd stage, haha.
Yep yep. Apparently we are not expected to do it. That solves my own internal issues with the 3rd stage, haha.
And yes, Exum has a Sentenza with a High bonus to Gremlins (apparently). I'm sure he'd have a good chance at taking down 3rd stage alone with 4 healers on his back.
Anyways... thread closed? Unless you guys want to talk about how one might go about beating 3 or 4 healers alone. I'm thinking a 4 or 5* poison gun would work well, assuming one is eventually implemented.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 22:39
#12
I've said it before: this
I've said it before: this game needs more randomisation, ESPECIALLY in arenas. The only enemies that spawn semi-randomly are gremlins, and that's simply not enough to counter the massive advantage you get from knowing where and when every monster will spawn.
The first time you get to an arena: sure, it's impossible to solo it all. After you've done it a few dozen times, you can memorise everything. You can't have a consistent level of challenge for all players without randomisation.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 00:04
#13
To clarify, I said that we
To clarify, I said that we don't expect most people to be able to complete it. It is possible, it's just very difficult. And it very well may be too difficult right now. That's something we hope to learn during this testing phase, so threads like these are very much appreciated.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 00:15
#14
Oh my
I heard you like healers Chronos: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/images/7/73/Spiral_2010-12-15_03-46-04.png
My only complain is that they hit hard.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 00:31
#15
So what's with the obnoxious, shrieking voices?
And it very well may be too difficult right now.
If you want my opinion, I think soloing should make some things impossible to complete.
Not everything, just things with large rewards, like bosses or third stage arena fights, certain things below Tier 3 that need to be feared and avoided by soloers.
I would also like to see Danger Gates return again.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 02:05
#16
Dear Nick,
Please don't make
Dear Nick,
Please don't make arena's easier.
Right now they're a challenge, yet doable. (except of course sometimes that last 3rd stage gremlin fray can get tricky) Randomisation could be better though. Right now it's easy to figure out that monster waves spawn in an "attackers" and "back-up" wave. Pay enough attention to when to kill which and you can pretty much control the flow very well. As it stands now, defeating a BA is a routine job for me, kill A, then B and so on.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 10:41
#17
Even totally aside from the whole issue with the BA...
@Pupu: Haha I've seen that before in stage 2 also. It's actually not that bad if there's only healers, you just have to be quick and wipe them out faster than they can revive each other. As I said, the real trouble is when there's 3+ healers along with half a dozen or more real attackers (healers are relatively easy to dodge on their own, like an MK3 Puppy), as in stage 3 of the BA.
@Shoebox: I agree with that, on one condition: state that it's supposed to be a group effort, as in a "Group Gate" or something. If it is meant to be a group effort, then it isn't supposed to be possible alone, and so people wont be able to complain about it being impossible to solo. As long as they actually state that something is meant to be literally impossible alone, it's fine that it is. (You obviously can't do PvP alone, there's a good example even if it doesn't totally make sense.) Perhaps even certain special gates or floors that require a party of 2 or more, unless you want to commit suicide.
As for the randomization part, that would be nice. I (and many others) could probably list off what spawns each step right now, due to the fact I've been doing arenas 95% of the time ever since that bishop gate was constructed (and now there's the sun one).
Anyways... Even totally aside from the whole issue with the BA I brought up, I think that healers are overpowered with their healing and reviving capabilities. You can have a dozen gremlins that become almost invincible with only a couple healers thrown in. Plus they will never die, theoretically, until you kill off every single healer. If you really get down to it, my issue is more generally about healers needing to not be able to, well, heal (and revive) so much. It's not just the BA that things get crazy (although I have not found anything as hard as 3rd stage with 3+ healers), it can get pretty messed up in the Deconstruction Zone if you rake up all the gremlins (it's fun to do though), or other areas with possibly group-able healers. Then again, in big groups it's usually getting dogpiled that's an issue, so if there were some 5* poison gun I honestly wouldn't be surprised if 3rd stage turned out to be pretty simple (assuming the poison effect lasts for at least 15 seconds or so, as effects seem to do for Alchemers later on).
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 11:43
#18
*bishop* gate? Blasphemy
*bishop* gate? Blasphemy towards chess! It's the PAWN gate!
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 11:57
#19
Oh wow...
Oh wow... Did I say Bishop? I meant Ruby Pawn... eheheh. Apparently I do it so often I don't even remember it's name. Then again a Bishop does look somewhat like an oversized Paw-... -overwhelming realization-
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 12:30
#20
Normally the Bishop has much
Normally the Bishop has much more art put into it though :o
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 14:01
#21
Shoebox - Danger rooms will
Pupu - That is indeed too many menders.
Shoebox - Danger rooms will be making a triumphant return soon.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 16:37
#22
Danger rooms?
Danger rooms? :O Sorry this is my first Preview. Anyone mind explaining what those are?
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 18:05
#23
Danger Rooms are like,
Danger Rooms are like, detours. They take you through a more dangerous area instead of the beaten path.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 18:14
#24
I loved danger rooms!
I loved danger rooms! Currently, we have treasure gates- but at 30% of the cost of a level for a tiny amount of treasure, most aren't a good value, at all. Having danger rooms (extra gameplay required to earn the rewards) made for more fun, and were definitely more worth the price. (Some of the jelly farm and perimeter promenade levels still have such "fight before treasure" areas like this, thought they're not actually marked as danger rooms. Once the first dozen gun puppies spawn, it becomes obvious!)
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 18:43
#25
If you ask me, healers seem to make too much of a difference...
@Shoebox: I see. Sounds like fun. I wonder if it gives better heat/items?
Well I just did another solo run and can confirm that victory completely depends on your luck (how many healers spawn, for the most part - there was only one this time). If none or even one spawns, it's relatively simple, you just run around in a big square shooting things (aiming for the healer first if there is one). Two is when it gets tricky, though it's not too bad if you can take them out quick, and pots help here. Three become a lot of trouble, because it's rare you see all 3 grouped up together. I've done it a couple times when I've been lucky, however it's usually because I was able to take out the Alpha Ash Wolvers first and there were less Thwackers than usual. As for 4... well, you know what I'm going to say to that. Now that I've been doing it quite a bit, I haven't seen 5 healers. Maybe I was thinking of the stage before? Or perhaps I somehow managed to keep previously spawned healers alive through the spawn steps.
If you ask me, healers seem to make too much of a difference versus other gremlins. A party of 12 gremlins isn't very hard with zero or one healers, even in the BA space with spikes. But if you throw in a couple of healers, you turn the battle into a Knightly bloodshed. Perhaps strengthening all the other types of gremlins aside from the healers to be more of a threat, and nerfing healers, would create a better balance. What do you guys think?
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 21:56
#26
Well, I think nerfing or
Well, I think nerfing or limiting how many sanctuary spells the mender can cast at once is gonna help balance them out alot.
Nothing breaks you heart like the sight of triple sanctuary overlapped in the lower right corner of the arena.
It's like whacking wolverine with a tooth pick..... come to think of it the gremlins belongs to the weasel family too, don't they now? :D
Mon, 12/20/2010 - 03:08
#27
Danger rooms / Arenas
@ Danger rooms: I've seen one or two during this preview, Aurora Isles I think it might have been. It's awesome to be able to open an energy door with a path behind it, knowing you'll probably face waves of enemies covered by the gunfire of rows of gun pups. Just awesome. Danger rooms FTW.
@ Arena: please don't make the 3rd fight easier. Yes, getting 4 healers makes me bang my mouse on the desk :P they're mind-numbingly obnoxious! But the 3rd fight is supposed to be. That said, the difficulty of the 3rd fight seems to scale with the amount of healers spawned. 2 Healers makes it a lot of running around and shooting, but still doable if you're properly geared up (and remember to throw those potions!). 4 Healers means getting ready for a revive or two (or simply bailing out, as I've done lots of times).
The 3rd fight is just plain mayhem, I think Chronus described it perfectly. I wouldn't dream of soloing it. And I feel that's as it should be. Even when I have just one last stripy of health left, as soon as my teammate falls that's my priority to get to, resurrecting them so that the monsters can have one more distraction.
Arenas are frustratingly tough if you want to get to the end. But when you make it, that's all the reward. Let's not make it easier! (And since Nick said "anything goes", so much for nerfing those OP healers :P)
Mon, 12/20/2010 - 09:01
#28
Evolution, it's not easy at
Evolution, it's not easy at all. When you get burned by pyros, knocked down by gremlins, and at the SAME time is going to take down the healers, it's really hard! Not to mention that they REVIVE eachother, and also BLOCK with those magic shields! I think the healers are over powered with their healing powers!
Mon, 12/20/2010 - 22:30
#29
Perhaps creatures killed
Perhaps creatures killed while poisoned cannot be revived? It would add a massive, specific, boost to poison type weapons, however since very few things can heal, that might be reasonable. Fire already allows you to light things up then run away, and ice is great for a larger group, who can circle around and tear the monster apart, but poison only seems to come into play when healers are on the field, and even then if there are 4 or more things out there, its going to be very hard to prevent the healers from having at least one target.
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 01:25
#30
No, Nooblar, that would just
No, Nooblar, that would just result in poison weapons becoming an absolute necessity.
Killing healers isn't that bad if you pace yourself. It can take a while, but try to knockdown and kill any gremlin that gets isolated. The healers don't always rez, so just keep an eye on the corpse. Healers are easiest to take down when they're healing or rezzing another gremlin. Just use a sword to knock them on the ground and keep them there.
The absolute worst thing they are able to do, however, is that quick smack with their staff. I have no idea why they have this attack. They can do it instantly and as much as they want. Because of this one attack, healers are the single-most dangerous enemy to approach in melee. No other creature has an attack so fast that it cannot be blocked on reaction.
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 02:16
#31
I beg to differ
Why would poison weapons become an absolute necessity? Because they're really handy to defeat any party that contains healers? I beg to differ.
Every creature in the clockworks has their strengths and weaknesses. So do our weapons. So some weapons are bound to be the best to defeat a certain type of creature. You should pick specific gear for specific enemies.
Which is why I've never understood why our gear gets locked once we leave the lobby.
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 02:18
#32
How would it make poison a
How would it make poison a necessity if you can fight them now, without poison?
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 03:24
#33
He means it differently. IF
He means it differently. IF healers were to be nearly unstoppable with normal weapons, and poison weapons would be the only key to their defeat, THEN it would make poison weapons an absolute necessity.
However, they're quite doable with regular weapons aswell at the moment. So poison weapons won't become a necessity even if they gain an advantage over gremlins.
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 11:14
#34
I honestly think...
If you get stuck at depth 24 with 4 healers (even 3 is tough), by yourself, in the 4th stage with a dozen other gremlins (I think it's 8, actually, if 4 are healers = 12 total), and spikes, it's not quite so reasonable heh. Not to mention the bubble glitch which often screws you up even more than the healers themselves. Stage 2 is not bad, because usually you end up with just healers if there's 4 or more. That's not as much of a problem, because you don't have thwackers, bombs, and flamers chasing you around non-stop or spikes to worry about running in to. (I'm pretty sure I could solo Vana before I beat the 3rd stage BA with 4 healers.)
I know it's supposed to be unreasonable (as Nick said), so rather than the arena I'm going to move to the healers themselves:
I honestly think they just need to lower the heal rate of the healers, and put some sort of limitation on their reviving capabilities. I'd really like to see a gremlin body totally disappear after a minute or something, or even a revival from a certain healer cast only every 30 seconds or so - this might introduce some good strategy. Right now they seem pretty OP, if you ask me (and I'm sure most others). It just so happens that the 3rd stage arena is where this is most obvious.
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 11:59
#35
Also fix their wand-strike,
Also fix their wand-strike, I've seen one do 5 in a row in about 2 seconds. That's just not good.
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 12:28
#36
Oh yeah, that's pretty annoying too.
Oh yeah, that's pretty annoying too. Even if you're lucky enough to kill one before it spazzes out with it's wand, you get stuck in a bubble. Hahah.
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 16:28
#37
Semi-related to overpowered
Semi-related to overpowered healers, i'd like to stop auto targeting those bubbles they make. Auto target has some functions, but when I put the cursor on on the mage, then swing a troika type weapon 50 degrees to the left, at his bubble, it totally misses him because of the charge attacks range. I assume that guns are/would suffer from the same issues.
Tue, 12/21/2010 - 17:33
#38
Ditto that, Nooblar.
Ditto that, Nooblar.
Wed, 12/22/2010 - 00:29
#39
You can turn auto-targeting
You can turn auto-targeting off. I know I did, it fails. Especially when gunning more precise things and it keeps targeting something else -.-
Wed, 12/22/2010 - 02:31
#40
auto-targeting
I've been turning auto-targeting on and off over the months. Currently it's on. It's very useful in a heated battle when your aim gets less steady. Also for shooting at monsters which are "south" of you, so that you can't see them. But I'd agree with Nooblar that auto-targeting a shield bubble is unnecessary. They're big enough to hit without aiming.
Wed, 12/22/2010 - 12:44
#41
Turning auto-target off does not work.
Turning auto-target off does not work. It simply does not turn off at all (the last time I checked). Either that or it doesn't do much.
Man you make a lot of these anti-healers posts :P Yes they can make things hard, but not undoable. Just target them first! You can knock healers out incredibly fast when you're solo or only with 2 because their health isn't increased due to your party-size. I've done it multiple times solo with only 3* equipment and a 4* sword, which would rank me below the required equipment rank. (Drake Scale Helm/Mail, Swiftstrike Buckler and Cold Iron Carver, to be precise)
One hint, don't be scared of taking damage when you're going for them. Run over spikes, through fire, just anything to get to them. Just be sure to pull out a moment on time to heal back up.