Spiral Knights - Explain things to someone of the unconventional type.

Explain things to someone of the unconventional type.

17 replies [Last post]

Sat, 03/23/2013 - 21:47

Etharaes

So I've been playing this game for a long time, and I always gone against the grain, making unconventional choices, sometimes knowingly, others not. These are a couple of things which I've wanted to know for a while that I want to ask everyone.

1. Why is pepperbox considered bad?
Is it simply about it's damage type? Yes, blitz has a higher DPS when facing neutral, but pepperbox is pretty powerful and obviously outclasses it when facing constructs and slimes. The main reason I have heard is that "it would be like a blitz but only for pierce resistant enemies/for constucts and slimes". So you wouldn't get a pepperbox because it would only be good for 2 types of enemies? Yet the common opinion is to get 3 weapons, one for 2 monster families each. Explanation please.

2. Why does so many people complain about how easy the game is yet frown on the weaker weapons?
Quite often I hear something along the lines of: "omg this game is too easy". Yet if I bring a normal weapon/unconventional weapon and don't kill things quite as quickly/safely, (or heck sometimes kill things quicker) then they say: "omg that weapon sucks why do you use that". If it takes longer to kill them then the game is harder, right? If I am having a bit more difficulty then the game isn't as easy right?

3. Dying and lag.
If someone in a party dies more than once some people (read: clones) quite often say things like "u suck" or "fail" and generally give people a hard time. Yet if they die they always just complain about lag, over and over again. I suppose this one is more of a psychology question.

Sat, 03/23/2013 - 22:29

Luguiru

They want their pixie wands and squirt guns to be nerfed.

Sat, 03/23/2013 - 22:41

Nexassassin

Lemme take a whack at it

1. Not that it's considered bad, it's because something else is better. It's counterpart (the Blitz Needle) does more damage on average. Even when the Blitz is against a neutral opponent, Gremlins/Undead, you'll notice it still does more damage (I think it also has more range, not sure. I've only compare Autoguns and Needle Shots). Not to mention being the most efficient gun against the most spammed boss.

The getting "one-of-each-damage-type-weapons" has more to do with maxing out damage than anything. People get weapons with specific damage types because they do more damage than their normal counterparts (e.g. Acheron vs. Levi against Slimes/Gremlins). The Pepperbox does decent on all targets but if someone has a Blitz Needle, the only time they'd want a Pepperbox practically is if they want the Autogun-style attack against Constructs/Slimes.

2. I have a few points for this one.
i) You should check out the number of people who still say it's hard.
ii) Keep in mind that not everyone who thinks your *insert weapon here* sucks also think the game is too easy.
iii) The game is meant to be casual, someone who decides the game is too easy and proceeds in doing Vanaduke solo with full proto gear are probably past the "playing this game casually" phase.
iv) There is a difference between self-imposed challenges such as bringing in a Winmillion and kill Vana with it and that of necessity, killing Vana with a Winmillion because it's your only weapon. You probably won't get people screaming at you as much if it's the former and they know it but considering the latter, people might question whether you realise there are far better options than your Winmillion. It's more of a "do-you-even-know- what-you're-doing?" thing.
v) No well-mannered person would openly say "your weapon sucks". Ergo, those who do say things like that are not well-mannered.

3. Let's see....thinks lowly of others for their failures yet always blame and rationalises own failures on external factors beyond his control. Sounds like a case of a heightened egocentric personality. You shouldn't concern yourself with them.

Sat, 03/23/2013 - 22:52

Etharaes

@Nexassasin

2 and 3 I get.

In 1 you have just sorta repeated what lots of others have said. With volcanic pepperbox and very high damage bonus I can OHKO lumbers and trojans in parties of 1-2 with it's charge (yes in T3, in stratum 6). I realise people get different damage types to max out their damage, but that's pretty powerful IMO. My trifle is that most weapons are used for 2 families of monsters, and pepperbox would too when used in conjunction with blitz example.

Sat, 03/23/2013 - 23:24

Nexassassin

Right yeah

I guess I didn't explain that that well XD

I'l try my best, take two =d

Most weapons with special damage types specialise against two families. They can be used against two more families being on par with normal counterparts. The Pepperbox on the other hand (in conjunction with the Needles since they're its only counterpart) only specialise against Contruct/Slimes. The Blitz Needle would be more practical against the other four family types.

But get this point straight: Less uses ≠ Terrible weapon.
Just because Freeze is more practical and far more useful in a far greater ranging set of scenarios does not make a Voltaic Tempest terrible.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 06:10

Hexzyle

If you knew how disgustingly

If you knew how disgustingly vast the gap was between the charge attack damage of Pepperbox and Blitz on NEUTRAL enemies, you'd know.

I find Blitz an abomination, and it is the biggest piss-in-the-eye to weapon balance, so I refuse to use it.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 06:24

Zeddy

The damage difference between Blitz and Plague is about 30%. The neutraldifference is more like 60% at no damage bonus. This gap closes a bit as you gain more damage bonuses.

In general, neutral damage gain the most from damage bonuses, and it is at max damage bonus that most specialized weapons don't have much going over normal ones.

Oh, and Blitz' bullets are faster, the regular attack reaches 1 tile longer than Pepperbox while the charge attack reaches 4 tiles longer.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 06:36

Shamanalah

my 2 cents

1. Blitz is a Vanaduke killer. Pepperbox is useless against Vanaduke.

2. This game IS easy when you have the right gear. And bear in mind that some people (like me) were playing before monster got nerfed... Making our habitual runs easier... I did FSC with my Cobalt set and my usual weapons. Glacius, Shiv, Blitz and Polaris. No death... I got banned 1 day like 2 months ago for cursing on the forum and grabbed my 2* mule and did FSC w/o dying and by being useful to my party (reviving, watering and generally shield bumping enemy to cover my friends)

I am one of the few that will get accepted in my guild FSC party as a 2* because they know I will still be useful (and yes I did kill some zombols as a 2* player with a Calibur... I dragged my zombol all across the depth 25 :D)

3. Usually when you don't get hit at all and you get a 1-2 sec lag spike you will get hit and it will get on your nerve because you are full health and it's not MY fault that I ran into a pit of fire. Because I never do when I don't lag...

Edit: But I will never say "you suck" or "epic fail". I will say /epicfail when my friends (or me) do something stupid. Of course if you act and play like an idiot I will point it out and may give you tips on how to improve yourself. And if you keep on trolling, most of time I will leave the party to finish my run solo, in a much calmer and relax way ^ ^

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 06:44

Hexzyle

@Shamanala

1. Blitz is a Vanaduke killer. Pepperbox is useless against Vanaduke.

Any weapon can kill anything when you boost its damage by 50-100% of the reasonable amount for a weapon of its type. Pepperbox is just as powerful as any other gun, FYI. Saying it's useless against Vanaduke is like saying AP is useless against Vanaduke.

This game IS easy when you have the right gear

No, the point of having a star rating system is that there is NO right gear. Some gear may be more effective in some situations, but all in all, a piece of equipment of a certain star rating should be, when its all-round performance is averaged out, equal to another piece of equipment of the same star rating.
What you mean to say is, the game is easy when you have the unbalanced, overpowered gear.

Nobody cares, this is not a "look at me, look at what I can do" thread.

The point is, you don't have to state a reason for every time you die, this isn't a school and you don't need hall passes. Whenever we see someone "complain about lag", it just looks like another whiny person who is just throwing their blame around.
Even if people insult you for dying, that's not a queue to complain about lag, it's a queue to slap that person down for being cynical and snobby.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 06:54

Zeddy

@Shamanala

I can promise you that Pepperbox is not "useless" against Vanaduke. At enough damage bonus, it's lke 30% less damage. Oh noooooo.

You can kill Vanaduke with anything, including just bombs.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 07:14

#10

Shamanalah

my 2 cents

Gee I thought that 2 old forumer like you Zeddy and Hexzyle would've get my post...

1. Blitz is stronger than Pepperbox against Vanaduke and people go for the max damage, Zeddy and Hexzyle you both do it.

2. Try doing C42 with an Ash of Agni then tell me gear is not important

3. The point is. Some people are actually butthurt by the lag because they can do Unknown Passage and all Danger missions alone, with full health and no rez. I always do it when I finish late at 10PM

The point is you can kill Godzilla with a rock, but it will be easier with a nuke

Why would you use Pepperbox against Vanaduke? Why would you use a Proto Gun against Vanaduke?

I'm just stating how some people are good (and I know someone who can proto run UFSC without dying) and how lag can affect them. Sorry if I butthurted you by my comments...

Edit: And I don't type "lag" each time I die, I type (and yell on TS) about the lag. If I die in a stupid way and are having a bad day, I will even tell my friends "Don't rez me, I'll just go grab something to eat while you finish this"

Edit 2: Fire elemental type weapons are useless compared to those ice elemental or piercing type weapons against Vanaduke. Ash of Agni is really useful against Vanaduke right? /sarcasm

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 07:21

#11

Dragonicblaze

Lol that last comment of yours makes me not want to invite u to my party xD

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 07:46

#12

Hexzyle

Gee I thought that 2 old

Gee I thought that 2 old forumer like you Zeddy and Hexzyle would've get my post...

Why would I "get" something that's straight out incorrect?

1. Blitz is stronger than Pepperbox against Vanaduke and people go for the max damage, Zeddy and Hexzyle you both do it.

But that's not what you said initially, you said that Pepperbox was completely useless.
Does Less Damage ≠ Useless
And now you're just making wild assumptions. I've never been obsessed about maximum damage, and certainly not when it means using stupidly obnoxious and overpowered equipment. And Zeddy is a fan of shard bombs. How is that going for the max damage?

2. Try doing C42 with an Ash of Agni then tell me gear is not important

And now you're trying to make out like I said words that I didn't. Using irrelevant and distracting information is unstable grounds for a point.

Shamanala: This game IS easy when you have the right gear
HexZyle: Between all 5 star weapons, there is no "right" gear
Shamanala: That's silly, of course there's "wrong" gear!

See the irrelevance? I can't stand it when people try to spin a point with confusing statements.

The point is you can kill Godzilla with a rock, but it will be easier with a nuke
Why would you use Pepperbox against Vanaduke? Why would you use a Proto Gun against Vanaduke?

You started off with a good line and then finished it with, complete, cynical irrelevance. I shouldn't even need to say this to you: You're comparing a 5 star weapon to a 0 star weapon. Are they supposed to be the same strength? Is that what the developers intended? For a Volcanic Pepperbox to be equivalant in strength to a proto gun?

I'm just stating how some people are good (and I know someone who can proto run UFSC without dying) and how lag can affect them. Sorry if I butthurted you by my comments...

OP: Why are people so harsh on others who die without discovering the reason?
Shamanala: I die due to lag
OP: Why do people who die always have to say "lag"?
Shamanala: Skilled players can be killed by lag

I'm not butthurt, I'm facepalming at your nonsensical, offtopic and egotistical statements. Do you use google translate to read the forums?

Edit 2: Fire elemental type weapons are useless compared to those ice elemental or piercing type weapons against Vanaduke. Ash of Agni is really useful against Vanaduke right? /sarcasm

Once again, not only a rediculous understatement, but you're going offtopic again.
Magma Driver and Combuster are completely viable in not only FSC, but on Vanaduke himself. And Pepperbox isn't even Elemental, it's normal damage.
Ash of Agni practically isn't even elemental anyway, it's just fire. Using it in a debate like how you've done there is identical to stating that Graviton Vortex is useless against Gremlins. The way you've used AoA as an example (Taking it completely out of its intended purpose zone) is like trying to argue that Laptops should be cheaper because they're not a sturdy melee weapon.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 08:05

#13

Narfle

my 3.5 cents

1. I have several friends with both pepperbox and blitz, and in most situations pepperbox does indeed OHKO things as effectively as blitz with the same max dmg loadout. I think the real issue is, as has been pointed out, that blitz is a slightly better choice for vana (just as pepperbox will tear through JK)--and until we have more content to define what people consider "endgame," pepperbox will still be considered a hipster alternative to the blitz. That having been said, however, popularity comes and goes in cycles. Ages ago, I remember getting a lot of "haha n00b!" for bringing my combuster on vana runs, until people realized that it could out-damage the alternatives since fire status doesn't interrupt a baddie from riding the full charge attack.

2. Same problem, really. A lot of players put a premium (and confer certain amount of status) on what popular opinion holds as the "best" way to do something. The question of what this does to players' perceptions of the game's difficulty level is a good one, but as Zeddy's work with the new shards proves (as just one example) ANY weapon in the game can be highly effective in the right hands. I <3 shard bombs.

3. Yeah, you just outlined the central problem of this and any other game: the players (lol?). Friend of mine recently got a random invite from a guildie, and, assuming that they needed a rev, was nice enough to head down to help. Despite the fact that they were out damaging the rest of the party, and had only lost health due to repeatedly needing to rev other people, after dying just once the guildie kicked them. [Details have been changed slightly to protect the not-so-innocent. The situation was actually way more absurd than this] Anyway, this isn't to say that lag isn't a huge problem for a lot of players, just that it is indeed also used as a blanket excuse when someone screws up. Best thing you can do is find a group of people to run with who don't let attitude stand in the way of having fun.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 08:36

#14

Zeddy

@Shamanala

I have never touched a Blitz Needle all my life, and resent your accusations. My Pepperbox is just fine against Vanaduke, thankyouverymuch.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 09:21

#15

Gravelord-Caste

Off with their heads

About the Pepperbox VS. Vanaduke, it has no shortfall in power anywhere in the fight.

As for the OP's questions here's my thoughts;

1) People are biased into thinking "BIG NUMRS IZ GUD". This probably has more truth for people who, for one reason or another, play solo. Volcanic Pepperbox is flexible, but it doesn't give the satisfaction of seeing a million numbers flying all over the place. Players could also be scratching their heads, wondering why they should take X weapon when Y is better on paper.

2) People are idiots: they don't have any reason to complain "it's too easy" then whinge when you grab "inferior" gear. They can make it more difficult for themselves if they wanted, but are too lazy to do so.

3) First thought: Ego. Still, even if they did stay on their feet, they'd have no reason to give anyone a hard time, even if his target did die a dozen times. Not everyone is good at the game.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 20:33

#16

Etharaes

And here I reply

@Everyone
This may shock you, but I have a blitz needle, and have had it for a long time. I have used both and I do see that blitz is more powerful versus volcanic pepperbox. Blitz is very good against vanaduke, but that doesn't mean pepperbox is useless. If blitz was useless, then the time me and Zeddy tried to pepperbox vana we would of been screwed. But we killed em anyway. I just find that any weapon that lets me OHKO things must be pretty powerful, even it is less powerful than another alternative. I personally love the ability to killed giant lichen colonies in 2 charge attacks. But no, it is useless because it can't kill vanaduke as well as something else.

@Shamanala
Thankyou for playing the part as a typical elitist wolver clone. Thankyou for bragging about yourself and saying how 'pro' you are in this forum just like what the other wolver clones would do. Thankyou for trying to back up your opinion by using extremely obscure comparisons and therefore convincing no-one. Thankyou for thinking that any weapon that inflicts fire is useless in vanaduke. Thankyou for taking the lag part of the discussion to the extreme and complaining about it and acting very sore about it.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 19:25

#17

Whimsicality

Since when has weapon balance ever existed?

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Explain things to someone of the unconventional type.