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on Spiral Knight's blatant, annoying and ridiculous design flaws

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Sun, 03/24/2013 - 13:55
Kagisnad-Il's picture
Kagisnad-Il

I have seen many games with wasted potential, and many games that have made me want to throw my computer in the raging fires of the Underworld, but none like Spiral Knights.
It's riddled with so many design flaws it's depressing to think about. Not a single session goes by without me noticing them and quite often, raging over them. I'll try to list a few. Just for discussion and informational purposes, because as I see it, Three Rings has no intention of fixing much, but rather adding new content [scarcely] over the already flawed one, when not making vanity items.
Now, keep in mind this is all personal opinion. I am by no means attacking Three Rings. I am merely exposing their flaws.

Energy System
Just kidding, this one's fine. I personally like it, despite the fact that it may have been abused a little. I think it's okay to limit play time, after all, most people won't run worth more than 100 mist in a day, anyway. Crafting costs however, may be a little high. And the amount of systems that use CE. But this fades compared to other flaws.

Latency
Perhaps the biggest, and most irritating flaw is the absurd latency. I understand this is a MMO, but for crying out loud, it gets RIDICULOUS sometimes. I'm an EU player from the Eastern region, with a decent internet connection. It means I should be fine, no? Not exactly. I feel as though I'm playing on the most sluggish server possible, located on Mars. I can't even imagine how bad it must be for Australian folks.

Poor Programming medium
Let's be honest- Spiral Knights is nowhere near a legit browser game. It's not the game you can just pick up at work and play in 15 minutes. It may have been intended to be this way, but it hasn't really worked out. The Java platform is nowhere fit for a game this size, and I believe it is the main source of lag- both latency and frame rate. It's a shame- Spiral Knights will stay Java, I reckon. I figure it would be extremely tedious to translate it to a more appropriate medium.

Equipment Balance
Obviously, there will always be certain sets of armor to outshine the others, but you should still have a choice.. right? Not in Spiral Knights! If you aren't in full Wolver, you're doing it wrong. Recently Chaos has worked its way up there [overpowered indeed], but there are still several sets which are COMPLETELY useless. They should have something to them- which would complement different play styles, such as extreme defense but slow attack speed [don't say Plate- you're dead if you choose it over Wolver, it has no bonus whatsoever], poor defense but extreme speed [both movement and attack]...

Different Damage types
This in itself, is a brilliant idea. But it is applied horribly. Normal damage is COMPLETELY useless, both on weapons and armor, and should be removed in favor of offering every armor and weapon in every damage type, so the players can actually choose, not be forced to use a Flourish if they want to deal piercing damage. Is it REALLY that hard to create new weapons and armor? REALLY? Apparently, yes.

Weapon Preference/ Forced Choices
You want to be a bomber or gunslinger? Sure, but you'll be more useless to the final DPS than if you had a sword! The situations in which bombers and gunslingers are favored or even useful are so scarce it's ridiculous. [but for one, which is implemented so poorly it's a design flaw, will talk about it later] Really, there isn't much to say here, just that you're a fool if you want to choose your playstyle. Flexibility and choice liberty is not something the developers ever thought about.

Camera Angles
You're just chilling in the upper side of the screen, killing some mobs, when suddenly you find yourself cornered by a Trojan with NO warning and then murdered with no chance of escape! Fun. So much fun.

Trojan Dash Cornering
It's so bad it deserves its own section and it's the definition of bad game design. Sure, you can say, just don't get cornered, but it can happen. And if it does, you just CAN'T escape. Because you'll most likely be stunned and with your health halved, too shocked to figure out which weapon will knock it back faster, and even if you did, he'd attack you faster than you can push him away.
-Vanaduke's Balls Dash
In Phase 3 and 5, if Vanaduke dashes with his balls all hanging out like that, the radius which can hit you is RIDICULOUS. With how fast and unpredictable his dash is [really, why does he dash when you're RIGHT IN HIS FACE. Talk about stupid], you just don't have time to go anywhere far enough to avoid it. And you can't always be half a screen away from him. And even if you are, you're not safe if he dashes your way. This isn't challenging- it's impossible.

Unresponsive Crew
I can understand OOO not chatting with the players on unimportant matters, but blatantly ignoring feedback, which is quite important, such as they will ignore this and not give any answer or motivation for some flaws which could really use a reply, now that's just plain disrespectful and unprofessional. Is it that hard to give a little yes or no on some questions the community has?

Vanaduke Fight
Talk about forced choices. You only have two here- either spend an eternity, or use a Blitz. This is perhaps the worst and most limiting forced choice in this game. I personally dislike the Blitz, and you won't believe how much bull' I have to go through and how much rage I have to face just to use a weapon of my choice, which should even be viable, the BTB. The only messages this fight gives me is: NOPE GO TAKE A BLITZ, HOW DARE YOU MAKE CHOICES!

Fiends
They would be great, challenging enemies if not for the latency mentioned before. Getting hit by a lightning speed projectile before even seeing the enemy raise their hand to attack you is no fun.

This isn't nearly half of the things I could say, but I think I'll stop here. This was quite pointless, but at least I know I got this off my chest. Time to play something that isn't nearly as annoyingly flawed!

I'd be the happiest person if OOO stopped creating new content and instead focused on fixing the already existing one BEFORE adding more. :\

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 14:13
#1
Wulfeknight's picture
Wulfeknight
Pretty big post, so I'll

Pretty big post, so I'll respond to the ones that jump out...

Unresponsive Crew - I would disagree here. OOO has been more responsive and transparent about upcoming content than most other MMO's I've played. They give us a 6-month snapshot at upcoming features, and relatively regular updates every month or two. They also -do- take the feedback from other players into account. The whole Guild Hall upgrade thing? That was a massive thread in the Suggestions forum for ages, and they made it happen. Same with buffing gunner armor to offer medium damage bonuses. I'm sure there are many, many others that I'm also not listing here.

I'd challenge you to go find three MMO's that are nearly as transparent and active as the team is here in SK. When you consider how small the SK group is compared to bigger teams, it's even more impressive.

Vanaduke - This boss is designed to be very difficult to fight melee in his final stage. That's the whole point. Before Blitz, we used to use the Argent Peacemaker to take him down - you should try this. It's not that you don't have choices, because you have a ton: just don't try to use a sword, unless your team is pro at throwing water. I think it's great to have some bosses that make you think a little more than just: "swing sword, go go go go!"

Fiends - Connection plays a big part here. If you're on 3 bars or less, you'll want to get used to shielding in advance of their throws - otherwise you'll take damage while the shield is up. It's frustrating, I know, and I get it too. But the trick with fiends is to play defensively, corner them, and then take them down.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 14:30
#2
Orbwanter's picture
Orbwanter

Weapon Preference/ Forced Choices
A competent gunner with an Alchemer can pump out damage on par with a swordsman, and do it from a safe distance. DPS bombers have the short end of the stick at the moment, but the upcoming horde critters may change that.

Vanaduke's Balls Dash
Dodge away, in the same direction he dashed first. Then sideways while he winds up the mace. If you're doing an old-fashioned kite-off, the person with aggro should keep their distance as much as possible and focus on putting out fires.

Trojan Dash Cornering
Next time you get boxed in by enemies, pull out a stun vial and let its magic work for you.

Unresponsive Crew
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/77049#comment-674367

Vanaduke Fight
There was a period of time where nobody even knew Blitz was secretly a good weapon - Divine Avenger charges and kiting with Argent Peacemaker was how it was done in the old days.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 14:30
#3
Gravelord-Caste's picture
Gravelord-Caste
I agree with some of the

I agree with some of the things, disagree with others, and have no opinion either way on the rest.

The biggest problem I have is the [REDACTED] camera angle - I find it much harder to play going down than up. A lot of people have cried about gear balance on the forums, and for good reason. The Flourish series being the only piercing swords is the main reason why I don't have any piercing weapons.

One thing I don't fully agree with is normal weapons being useless; yes, they're underpowered, but they're still flexible enough to get you out of a situation when you're caught flat-footed, or for other reasons. I've done well enough in Volcanic Plate, but I also have a Divine Veil.

Any clarification on what's a good bomb/gun?

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 14:55
#4
Feyi-Feyi's picture
Feyi-Feyi
Indeed.

I have to agree.

Maybe not to all specific points, but broadly: yes.
OOO should fix what they have before bringing in more new things.
They are indeed not responsive to feedback from the community.
I don't think they should pay attention to our every little whim, but there are certain threads that pop up in the fora every week or so.
(rebalancing, lag,..)

Feyi

Edit: I don't mean GM's. They do their job well imo. I mean dev's. When a whole community can agree on some things you should try to listen.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 14:43
#5
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

You're absolutely correct, but you're wasting your breath... like you said "Unresponsive Crew".

Though I have gathered that they know about and are trying to fix some of the issues in the game, but just aren't capable of doing it- like the Iron Slug. They also have a quota of new content that must come out. If they don't release things quickly enough, then they start losing players.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 14:42
#6
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Latency

Ah, this could be fixed in reality. No, not with servers, but with some code, but because I can't look at their source code, I can't say how feasible it would be.

Let's be honest- Spiral Knights is nowhere near a legit browser game.

SK isn't a browser game. The game is downloaded to your computer in a spiral folder somewhere in your home folder/directory. Check it...there are files, files, and more files. This is a full blown game and merely is one which you can download through the browser app.

Equipment Balance

Try anciant plate....two-four pips lost in T3 on each hit, wooo!!

Really, there isn't much to say here, just that you're a fool if you want to choose your playstyle.

The only thing I can ask is...have you tried gunning? It's saver than swording. Have you tried bombing? I can take out two (or three or four or....) birds with one bomb, err stone. DPS isn't something which is required to be high.

Camera Angles

This, I admit, is a problem. You can't see stuff so well. Being able to change to view would be awesome.

-Vanaduke's Balls Dash

You 1) don't run away, 2) sidestep, and 3) use water balls. If the fire balls are a problem, take your time getting rid of them. It's not like they are set in stone and will always haunt you.

Unresponsive Crew

Well the problem here is that the GMs read the stuff, not the developers. The GMs can't say anything which is certain, so they don't want anything like "EURY SAID THAT IT'S A PROMISE NOW" and then "EURY LIED WE MUST MAKE HER BURRRN!!!". Getting the devs on the forums might help but none of them know exactly how things will be either.

If you are thinking shard bombs, Eternity-Terminal tells me that they can kill things almost as fast as a normal sword can but you're twice as safe. I think removing the hit limit is all that's required to make it a piece of awesome.

Thread on the topic

I personally dislike the Blitz, and you won't believe how much bull' I have to go through and how much rage I have to face just to use a weapon of my choice, which should even be viable, the BTB. The only messages this fight gives me is: NOPE GO TAKE A BLITZ, HOW DARE YOU MAKE CHOICES!

What are you doing, solo it? People have reasonably done FSC with some [bad] weapons, so it's not impossible. Further more, you're coming off as one of those [many] "lifeless" FSC grinders. Open your eyes and step into the arcade. It's a different story here.

Fiends
Don't stop moving and grab yourself this, this, or this. What do all those weapons have it common? They don't make you stop moving when you use them.

This isn't nearly half of the things I could say, but I think I'll stop here. This was quite pointless, but at least I know I got this off my chest. Time to play something that isn't nearly as annoyingly flawed!

Go ahead and say them! We'll be happy to answer your questions!

Wait...flawed? Where? All the things you point out are things newer players (even new T3 players) trip over.

I'd be the happiest person if OOO stopped creating new content and instead focused on fixing the already existing one BEFORE adding more. :\

Have you read the patch notes? They do lots of fixes, and fixing isn't the easiest thing to do. Remember that the person who does the models/graphics wants to keep making things, and the coders have to do things to accommodate these new models/graphics. Otherwise, after finishing fixing everything, the SK team would find themselves swamped with new ideas and features and would be even more behind than they are now. They are probably just keeping the whole team busy and focusing on everything, taking this and that down along the way.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:03
#7
Grantgalitz's picture
Grantgalitz
"Can't look at their code"...

"Can't look at their code"... umm you do know java source code is compiled into a strictly defined bytecode, yeah?

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 16:19
#8
Grittle's picture
Grittle
Here is my counter

Here is my counter argument

Latency-Cupcakes

Poor Programming medium-Cupcakes

Equipment Balance-Cupcakes

Different Damage types-Cupcakes

Weapon Preference/ Forced Choices-Cupcakes

Camera Angles-Cupcakes

Trojan Dash Cornering-Cupcakes

-Vanaduke's Balls Dash-Cupcakes

Unresponsive Crew-Cupcakes

Vanaduke Fight-Cupcakes

Fiends-Cupcakes

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 16:24
#9
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Kagisnad-Il

Equipment Balance
...such as extreme defense but slow attack speed [don't say Plate- you're dead if you choose it over Wolver, it has no bonus whatsoever], poor defense but extreme speed [both movement and attack]...

This amuses me. When I first started, I've lost count the amount of times Platemail saved my neck. The slow attack speed is negligible (It's barely 8%) and the armor has the defense value of another an entire star rating above it. I even recommend it to newer players, it slaughters in Tier 1 and 2, and its upgrades are pretty mean and tough when it comes to taking melee hits in tier 3.
Of course, there are going to be skilled players with good latency who have no use for such gear, but that doesn't mean it's not a good crutch for those who aren't.

Different Damage types
Normal damage is COMPLETELY useless, both on weapons and armor, and should be removed in favor of offering every armor and weapon in every damage type, so the players can actually choose, not be forced to use a Flourish if they want to deal piercing damage.

I disagree strongly with this point. Firstly, your proposal that Normal defense is useless is a ridiculous one, what's wrong with a defense/offense that is good all round? Are we not allowed to have hybrids?
Secondly, offering each weapon in each flavour would severely cripple weapon combos. People would just get 3 brandishes, one piercing, one elemental, one shadow, and just switch between them as different monsters popped up. No variation in weapon usage or attack styles, nothing. Gunners would do the same with AP and bombers would do the same with Nitro.
The game would become more of a "Spam attack to win" fest than it is now, and would teeter even further towards "grind, grind, grind"

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 16:31
#10
Irthan's picture
Irthan
Poor Programming medium Let's

Poor Programming medium
Let's be honest- Spiral Knights is nowhere near a legit browser game. It's not the game you can just pick up at work and play in 15 minutes. It may have been intended to be this way, but it hasn't really worked out. The Java platform is nowhere fit for a game this size, and I believe it is the main source of lag- both latency and frame rate. It's a shame- Spiral Knights will stay Java, I reckon. I figure it would be extremely tedious to translate it to a more appropriate medium.

Unless you have data to back this up (and the plural of "anecdotes" is not "data"), this is pure guessing. And can you name a "more appropriate medium", given that your first 3 sentences imply that it should be more portable, but the rest of the paragraph implies that its portability is an issue?

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 16:36
#11
Grantgalitz's picture
Grantgalitz
Lockbox Spawn Rate

[Redacted]

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 16:45
#12
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

My computer runs Spiral Knights fine. No FPS drops. (Apart from when I'm VTing 24 slag walkers at once in a 4 man party) . I don't have "bad" latency and I live in Australia and am using a mobile internet connection. My latency sits at a lovely stable rate.
Compare that to when I used my laptop, yikes. Everytime the laptop spun the disc in the drive or decided there were a few too many things on the screen, weeeeeeeeeeeeee, I went teleporting everywhere.

There are a thousand and one things that can cause latency, don't go throwing the blame on OOO.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:17
#13
Grantgalitz's picture
Grantgalitz
Super Brawl

Also bring back the Super Brawl event! That crown... it teases us all.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 16:52
#14
Grantgalitz's picture
Grantgalitz
Also hex, part of the problem

Also hex, part of the problem is that SK is largely single threaded, so even if you have a 12 core i7, it will for the most part use one core at any time. Not to mention Spiral Knights pressures Java's garbage collection over and over causing those periodic hiccups (Memory cleanup pauses).

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:00
#15
Rating's picture
Rating
I take back my

I take back my question/comment. Don't want to be a part of this rage thread...haha

/patience young padawan

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:19
#16
Bloomp's picture
Bloomp
Proof of some lockbox find rate shenanigans?

@grant I think you were looking for these:

[REDACTED]

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:31
#17
Grugwasasailor
I barely play anymore but.... THE AUS LATENCY!!

YES! YES!!

ITS THE WORST!!!!!! IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!

@hexzyle I barely lag at all myself. My perspective is that of a pvper, the latency in pvp is far more noticeable. PvE is easy to handle.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:28
#18
Eltia's picture
Eltia
Cooperstown, ND

I don't think Java is the problem. The problem is controlling when the garbage collection occurs. Right now, SK still run on Java 6 using the default garbage collector by default. Perhaps it's time for Three Rings to experiment with Java 7 and find out which garbage collector is a better fit for SK.

Equipment Balance. Well some of the useless sets need to be reworked. e.g. Almirian crusader, ancient plate set. As to why more equipment are not added sooner, my theory is that the Devs need to wait for the artistic department (Ian) to come up with something SKish. They couldn't just arbitrary say "OK here is a new set and let's roll it out tomorrow". The set needs to somehow fit into the SK world (both artistically and functionally).

Vanaduke Fight. Blitz or eternity. I think the problem is really the lack of other efficient option aside from Blitz. Given the way Vanaduke Stage 5 is designed, guns are pretty much the fastest way. (You can of course clear the fire balls and poke him with a sword, but that's slower. Bombs use to be a more viable option before shard bomb patch.) And right now, Blitz with a good CTR out damage pretty much all other guns unless the target resist piercing. So yea, Blitz or take your sweet time.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:29
#19
Helios's picture
Helios
Game Master
Reminder

Please remember that it is against the ToS section 6.1 to decompile any portion of the game files. It is also against the rules located at the top of the forums to post any such spoilers you may have found when doing so.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:39
#20
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Yikes, I heard that shocking floppy disk spark as it flew past my head D:!

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 17:44
#21
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Is 12 minutes really such a long time for doing the final boss?

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 19:31
#22
Grantgalitz's picture
Grantgalitz
Helios, that's not really a

Helios, that's not really a secret though on the lockboxes, there are multiple forums posts on it that have said exactly what I've said.

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 19:54
#23
Tin-Foil-Hat's picture
Tin-Foil-Hat
Meh the only bug ive

Meh the only bug ive experience soo far is mini weapons.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ljk05&s=6

:D Mini Hammer. I dont mind this bug clearly :D

Sun, 03/24/2013 - 20:14
#24
Grantgalitz's picture
Grantgalitz
hammer!!!1

Using a hammer at vanaderp? dats a paddlin'

I predict... zombies hammered into other players' faces in the near future.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 00:30
#25
Zaffy-Laffy's picture
Zaffy-Laffy

Latency
I mentioned this in some other lag post somewhere, but I honestly think that was the problem. The problem is not with how close you live to the server, rather how direct your connection is? If I understand correctly, the number of gates or servers an internet connection has to get through from one end of Europe to the other end, is innumerable. So you live in the east region, I have some bad news for you, the server is located in the west region, Ireland specifically. The number of gates you have to pass through is so large, that with each gate you pass, it will increase your ping. In the end, though I live in Eastern Asia, I get a straight-forward, jitterless, though high ping to the USA server. All in the geographical properties of the servers.

Poor programming medium
Are you just blaming OOO because they prefer to run their game on the Java engine instead of a self-created one or an engine stolen off some other company? Look back on the crew size, and you will know.

Equipment Balance
In all honesty I think all the gears are drastically imbalanced. If it takes you 800 energy to craft a 5 star weapon, of course you will go for the best. I really think that OOO should rethink equipment balance, give ups and downs to some gear, make a double-edged sword, and just have one set of standardized equipment. Anyone who played Epic Battle Fantasy series should know what I mean. Please relook this, OOO

Camera Angles
No idea why, but since now the whole game basically run quite straight-forward with the current camera angle, it seems fine. Not to say it but, have you wonder if you could change the camera angle, what key mappings would you give? And here comes the whole fight about mapping WASD to camera and/or gamepad madness.

Unresponsive Crew
Of course when there are 50+ threads being produced every day (not counting the buy/sell threads), then you can't expect the crew to read everything, especially something as long as this. Though it is recommended, that the crew take time off sometimes and come here to say hi and post their opinion on the situation.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 00:43
#26
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Grant

Helios, that's not really a secret though on the lockboxes, there are multiple forums posts on it that have said exactly what I've said.

But they gathered their information from the gameplay itself, not digging in the files. Its somewhat the same reason why Spiral Spy images aren't allowed on the wiki.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 01:16
#27
Grantgalitz's picture
Grantgalitz
Actually I got this info from

Actually I got this info from gameplay too. Anything that happened above in this thread would have simply been confirmation.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 01:25
#28
Mupt's picture
Mupt
Bliep

Oh look, this thread again >.>
No but for real now, stop making such threads, they are getting annoying and my #facepalm factor is getting to high.
*facepalm factor* increase by 69.
Have a great day.
~Demete

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 01:36
#29
Glittertind

On Java:

The main issues with it are its speed, security and its arithmetic.

It's speed has done better as it has progressed, but it still isn't comparable to languages like say C++ on most levels.

Security has some issues, but that's sort of beside the point here.

It also has a hard time with arithmetic like floating point arithmetic. E.g. It doesn't utilize all the floating point types available in most modern processors. It also doesn't like unsigned integers and compound value types like structs in C++. Both of these are used quite commonly and cause a significant challenge when unavailable.

Mostly it gets good credit from its multi-platform capabilities. Most platforms can use it because it's easy to integrate.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 02:27
#30
Midnight-Dj's picture
Midnight-Dj
*sigh*

Crafting-well, what do u expect this is a pay to win game after all, you should know that every so called f2p games ways to encouRAGE (you know what I mean)you to pay with real money. I am fine with that, but sry OOO, u ain't getting a dollar out of me, my final verdict, work hard and some day you will have a set of 5* gears of ur own, work hard, DREAMS NEVER DIE.

Latency-OOO, for crying out loud, as a pacific gamer( i am in pacific region), fix this plz. Sometimes, at my firend's house, where internet is shared amongst god knows how many computers( my own computer is half-competent), i will see my teammates and enemies fly across the SCREEN AND DISSAPPEAR IN TO THE DISTANCE, but still i managed to get good internet, and use soloing to cope with the problem...but the lag ultimately stressed my combat style, i am forced to use a more defensive sword+gun combat technique instead of enjoying blowing stuff up and hack and slash.

Equipment-guns, swords, and bombs can't work on their own, they need to be paired up to have their maximum potential( my own opinion, i know some of u here are sword heavy or bomb freak...) i mean at the crash site( the day i started playing SK), they give u two types of weapon(gun+sword), OOO is giving u the choice between long range or close range right from the start and i appreciate that. Guns are meant to help u deal damage while conserve health, swords, to me they help me get rid of enemies that got close to me( mewkat greaver and wolver, those mother*cough* sry about that). And bombs, can be used as means to damage or disoriantate a mob of enemies, making it easier for u to kill.

VANADERP-i confess, i never fought vana once in my life, yeah, i am a jelly farmer, even though i gain about 3K less that VANA grinders daily, but it is a far safer option( and quicker depends are who u are doing vana with). As for blitz, y not? The GAME (SPOILER) GIVE U FREE RECIPE FOR THE 4* weapon before it, that saved u about 10K down the back. As for vana himself, i am sure with enough encounter with that monster, anyone can slay him with ease, and killing R twins can be a pain in the butt too if u don't know the pattern or just simply bad luck.

Fiends-THOSE.....GAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah they are annoying...ever tried to deal with a bunch of firey devilites while wearing valkyrie armor? No, but i did, and somehow, i made it through( still died once). The trick is, instead of get close to them and beat them with flourish, u stay in range with them( they won't try to into range, which is good) and BLAST THEM PULSAR! MUHAHAHA!!! This tactic totally work since even know they can evade projectile, pulsar's splash damage can always blow them away. once u knock them down, BLAST THEM UNTIL THEY ARE DEAD.

Final verdict, *sigh* what can i say, with a little bit real life money, u can be pretty pro in no time in SK. But that is not how i play game( no OOO, i am not paying -.-#) i play game, start from nothing, with no real money helping me out, i worked my butt off and eventually reached the top( got some sick gears) It feels so satisfying. I hope u all work hard( and pay a bit real money so the CE price stays where it is) and become the knight u dreamed to be. ----DREAMS NEVER DIE---

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 02:48
#31
Aus-Lagger's picture
Aus-Lagger
if your an aussie, you might

if your an aussie, you might as well quit this game. its not worth putting up with the latency especially if you plan on PvPing. So many aussies have quit already or gone inactive.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 05:59
#32
Grantgalitz's picture
Grantgalitz
Weedalot: Left out the part

Weedalot: Left out the part where a lot of transcendental functions are done in software rather than hardware on the x86 arch to comply with IEEE standard exactness. Java took an arrow to the floating point numbers.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 06:15
#33
Kagisnad-Il's picture
Kagisnad-Il
Wulfeknight, while the crew

Wulfeknight, while the crew has been more responsive than most, they overlook certain uproars which could REALLY use an answer.
"This boss is designed to be very difficult to fight melee in his final stage"
Which cancels out the main and most effective play style forced upon you. What if I absolutely hate guns and bombs? Do I have to sit back and not have the chance to do it solo?
We do have choices, but we are punished for making them. If we want efficiency and not feeling guilt and frustration while using the weapons and play styles we chose to.
Shielding in advance from a very unforeseeable and lightning quick attack? Do it. With 2 bars. Then you can speak.

Orbwanted,
I do agree with Alchemers being competent, and they can deal out a decent amount of damage, but nowhere as easily as swords.
I don't understand your dodging directions for the dash.
Stun vials don't affect Trojans' shields. Most of the time, you don't have a stun vial randomly laying around.

Autofire,
That bit of code to fix the latency, is hard to implement in Java.
SK was designed as a browser game originally. Otherwise the site itself would present you directly with a download option, not a play option.
In appropriate mediums, such as FSC, I doubt Vog is inferior to Ancient Plate.
If you want to be efficient, high DPS=efficiency. I'm all about efficiency here, not what you CAN do.
About the sidestep, you can't sidestep far enough in Phase 5, before he rushes lightning speed, unless you are already a fair distance away from him.
Is it really better to hide and not give answers than to deal with a few idiots? If they fear those potty heads so much they decide not to say things, I value them as a community crew very, very low.
Oh, are we not supposed to solo it anymore? I personally prefer solo parties. What, am I getting punished for this too? I'm speaking of efficiency here, not diversity. Because for diversity, everything is eligible.
Irthan,
I'm not sure what you're doubting- the difficulty of Java, or that the game is made in Java? Both those were stated and are so blatantly obvious they are their own argument.
Zeddy,
Reported to usual kill times, yes.
Zaffy-Laffy,
For the camera angles, it is impossible to fix the angle, but what about fixing the angle abuses of the mobs?
I expect them to read and reply to what is brought up again and again. Important matter.
Demete,
Oh, I'm sorry for having an opinion and stating it. Gosh, everything is punishable here, isn't it? I'M SORRY I THOUGHT THIS WAS 'MURICA. O: <

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 06:51
#34
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
my 2 cents

Latency

It's a MMORPG, of course if you live in Australia you will lag. Other than that US and EU server are pretty fine. Have you ever lagged in Haven? No... it was probably in LD

Poor Programming medium
Let's be honest- Spiral Knights is nowhere near a legit browser game. It's not the game you can just pick up at work and play in 15 minutes. It may have been intended to be this way, but it hasn't really worked out. The Java platform is nowhere fit for a game this size, and I believe it is the main source of lag- both latency and frame rate. It's a shame- Spiral Knights will stay Java, I reckon. I figure it would be extremely tedious to translate it to a more appropriate medium.

Explain in detail why it is bad and why it should be re-worked. As it stands now Java is perfectly fit for this game. Saying it isn't right and there are better alternative is not a concrete answer.

This in itself, is a brilliant idea. But it is applied horribly. Normal damage is COMPLETELY useless, both on weapons and armor, and should be removed in favor of offering every armor and weapon in every damage type, so the players can actually choose, not be forced to use a Flourish if they want to deal piercing damage. Is it REALLY that hard to create new weapons and armor? REALLY? Apparently, yes.

Normal damage deals normal damage to everything. I love my Leviathan blade and it's powerful enough, just like the cobalt line... Yes it is really THAT hard to BALANCE a game with 30-ish weapons. Of course you have no clue because you never created a game and never had to balance it. I did and let me tell you something. You wouldn't even be able to balance a Warcraft III custom maps with half the component of SK

You want to be a bomber or gunslinger? Sure, but you'll be more useless to the final DPS than if you had a sword! The situations in which bombers and gunslingers are favored or even useful are so scarce it's ridiculous. [but for one, which is implemented so poorly it's a design flaw, will talk about it later] Really, there isn't much to say here, just that you're a fool if you want to choose your playstyle. Flexibility and choice liberty is not something the developers ever thought about.

Says who? You? LOL did you know that Gunners have the world record for fastest Vanaduke? No? yeah though so... Bombers are CC mofos and DoT, their main goal is not to dps you but to keep you at bay and put some elemental status so that your friend can clear the mobs easily (Graviton Vortex + Venom Veiller = GG fest)

You're just chilling in the upper side of the screen, killing some mobs, when suddenly you find yourself cornered by a Trojan with NO warning and then murdered with no chance of escape! Fun. So much fun.

You can see it, you are just bad at avoiding Trojans. It's not because you don't see them that they automatically disappear and play poker. They are there and have either you or your friend aggroed. I usually time my blitz charge to release where the trojan WILL be, not where it IS.

It's so bad it deserves its own section and it's the definition of bad game design. Sure, you can say, just don't get cornered, but it can happen. And if it does, you just CAN'T escape. Because you'll most likely be stunned and with your health halved, too shocked to figure out which weapon will knock it back faster, and even if you did, he'd attack you faster than you can push him away.
-Vanaduke's Balls Dash
In Phase 3 and 5, if Vanaduke dashes with his balls all hanging out like that, the radius which can hit you is RIDICULOUS. With how fast and unpredictable his dash is [really, why does he dash when you're RIGHT IN HIS FACE. Talk about stupid], you just don't have time to go anywhere far enough to avoid it. And you can't always be half a screen away from him. And even if you are, you're not safe if he dashes your way. This isn't challenging- it's impossible.

I thought that camera was the problem not trojan? Use shield bumping and you can get out of those corner. I always do... ALWAYS. Phase 3 and Phase 5 of Vanaduke is easy, get better. The dashing of Vanaduke are so predictable I can dodge it with my Blitz charged

I can understand OOO not chatting with the players on unimportant matters, but blatantly ignoring feedback, which is quite important, such as they will ignore this and not give any answer or motivation for some flaws which could really use a reply, now that's just plain disrespectful and unprofessional. Is it that hard to give a little yes or no on some questions the community has?

Your feedback is not worth checking IMO, it's just a rage thread cause you keep dying at FSC against Trojans I guess. They are community manager, not your mom. They will answer the way a community manager would, keep everything civil and try to put a joke here and there to make people laugh and give official links to announcement/ToS.

Vanaduke Fight
Talk about forced choices. You only have two here- either spend an eternity, or use a Blitz. This is perhaps the worst and most limiting forced choice in this game. I personally dislike the Blitz, and you won't believe how much bull' I have to go through and how much rage I have to face just to use a weapon of my choice, which should even be viable, the BTB. The only messages this fight gives me is: NOPE GO TAKE A BLITZ, HOW DARE YOU MAKE CHOICES!

You can use any gun in the game to defeat vanaduke. Blitz deals more dmg but leave you open, for a newbie like you I'd like to point out that before everybody used and Argent Peacemaker but it got nerfed so the next best thing was a Blitz. You can kill Vanaduke the way you want, like you can kill Snarbolax with Leviathan if you want. I've seen people defeat Vanaduke with a Strike Needle and a Firo Driver.

They would be great, challenging enemies if not for the latency mentioned before. Getting hit by a lightning speed projectile before even seeing the enemy raise their hand to attack you is no fun.

Too bad you don't even care enough to ask for your friend where they live and if they can host in your region rather than EU... Or ask to host for once? But I guess you don't have friends at all

I find this Thread funny, mostly a rage Thread from dying too much at FSC against Trojan and experiencing some lag while in "my home country MURICA"

Edit: I love how you think your opinion is the only good one... I've seen people do Vanaduke with swords and I will even attempt it today just for you. I will tell my friends "here's the challenge: Vanaduke with swords" I will hear some "awww you sure?" and some "oh yeah, bring it on!"

I got a challenge from my friend to stun Vanaduke with my Proto Bomb... Still working on it >.<

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 06:43
#35
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
my only problem is...

the lag. Still havent found a way for the game to be optimzed. I play the game with lag spikes.

as for the glitches and bugs, theres a TON of them. I got a big folder full of screenshots. I started a wiki page called Glitches yet its really unfinished. Too many files to upload to show ALL of the glitches. But....glitches and bug never really hurt nobody. So im cool with the whole "WTF moment"

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 06:52
#36
Eltia's picture
Eltia
Cooperstown, ND

Regarding latency. If the EU folks have problems with server routing (the number of hops from your end to the Ireland server), and you guys are majority (e.g. a lot of Russian players), that's something to tell OOO to fix. Sorry but don't see any other easy solution here.

Regarding Vanaduke forced weapon choice. Sure, Blitz left you pinned down momentarily and that requires a bit of experimentation to get the timing right. But with a good ASI, you can trim off a large portion of that reload time and therefore reduce your pin down time. So in the end, we are back to the same old dilemma: we have this weapon that is OP but is not removed / balanced. (Guess we keep it because Blitz is very gun like?)

I noticed that in the past 1-2 months, I'm seeing more and more people using Blitz + Swiftstrike Buckler option. People don't even bother with shield blocking in FSC these days, because, well what is there to block against when they are all dead, right?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 06:58
#37
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
my 2 cents

the lag. Still havent found a way for the game to be optimzed. I play the game with lag spikes.

Press escape, start to play with the region, IP, US or EU.

as for the glitches and bugs, theres a TON of them. I got a big folder full of screenshots. I started a wiki page called Glitches yet its really unfinished. Too many files to upload to show ALL of the glitches. But....glitches and bug never really hurt nobody. So im cool with the whole "WTF moment"

Yeah I got a ton too, I was saying yesterday how I could make a compilation of glitches and give it to OOO but most of them aren't game-breaking or really important. The most important glitch I found was reported and probably fixed thanks to Rhagnarock (winterfest unlimited time glitch)

But some of them are really... well... useful and useless at the same time. Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS3s8OXBguE

I also found a way to move while inspecting people and a way to be AFK in the game and not get kicked out... (tested during a full hour)

Some glitches here and there, kinda like the DA bug at FSC they fixed. Nothing major

Edit: @ Eltia: I am part of a French guild and we are 3-4 from Quebec and 50 from Europe. They host in EU and we play on IP and have little to no latency. LITERALLY!!! And when I host they lag because I'm in IP and they are EU but if I switch to EU and they switch to IP they don't lag and I don't lag either. OOO implemented some changes for lag issue, if you don't use it that's not OOO fault

Yes they play US LD sometimes and they don't lag. They even play EU LD too and don't lag. Care to explain how 50-ish people from EU and 4 from Canada can play without lag (counting 2 Australians and 1 New-Cadelonian)???

Cause we know how to use the option that are given to us?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 07:52
#38
Autofire's picture
Autofire
@Helios and Grantgalitz

Yeah, that's what I mean when I say I can't look at the code.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 08:40
#39
Eltia's picture
Eltia
Cooperstown, ND

@Shamanala. I'm from Ontario, Canada and I have lag issue only when I join EU server. Solution? Don't join EU server. Problem? Not mine exactly, more referring to comment of this guy >>Zaffy-Laffy. My fault? Not even my problem, not sure why the word fault is being throw around.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 09:13
#40
Irthan's picture
Irthan
@Kagisnad-Il

I'm doubting your ability to know what the code is doing, beyond "running".

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 09:17
#41
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Grant

"Anything that happened above in this thread would have simply been confirmation"

It's not your job to confirm other peoples findings.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 09:29
#42
Thinslayer's picture
Thinslayer
Re: C language

My dad is a programmer, and the reason he dislikes C++ is that it is not robust. When programmers make mistakes, C doesn't stop them, but continues merrily on its way until it blows up. I suspect that Java is more programmer-proof than C.

To put it another way, would you rather have a buggy game or a slower game?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 09:41
#43
Tohru-Adachi's picture
Tohru-Adachi
Your dad is awesome.

...

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 09:51
#44
Eltia's picture
Eltia
Cooperstown, ND

C++ is OK until you get into the template stuff. You need a doctoral degree in cryptography to decipher what the diagnostic says. Java doesn't make programmer more programmer-proof than C++, much like C++ doesn't make C any safer. Why? Safer language features getting off set by increase in the complexity built by using the same features.

Point is. I still don't believe Java is the culprit. The type of Garbage Collector being used or how the server is written are probably what causes all the lag.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 10:20
#45
Rating's picture
Rating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z898OQIfgso

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