As we all know, Valiance is a very popular weapon among swordsmen and gunslingers. A Valiance's bullets are fast and pretty powerful. Combined with AT, this weapon is quite ridiculous.
As a gunner, I find Valiance quite overpowered. It's bullets can hit anything in its range as long as your target isn't moving in the opposite direction. The Valiance while good, requires a good amount of training and is the best gun in lockdown once you get practice with it. There is no weapon that can rival it in a simple combat. A Polaris doesn't have as much range as the Valiance does, and much less speed. Alchemers are also inferior to Valiance. It is hard to hit anybody who isn't directly in front of you or moving towards you. Valiance seems like the only gun that experienced players use. Some use Polaris, but most have a Valiance. Very few people use alchemers as a sidearm as a serious weapon. It seems like Valiance is the best gun you can get for lockdown. While Sentenza is comparable to it, it comes short in the end with lower damage and a smaller bullet size.
Now, some people might think i'm just angry and need help, but with the right training no weapon can come to being as good as Valiance. Storm Driver seems quite overpowered as most of you think, but how is that weapon going to even touch a Valiance user? It easily keeps your foe at bay with the right aiming. Most people have done tons of training with Valiance and will probably tell me that is not as easy as it looks. I agree with this because I have used Valiance for maybe 10-20 games. However, it's still superior to every other gun in lockdown.
My final words, I think Valiance is overpowered and needs a nerf. I want to know your opinions to see if you agree with me or not. I know i'll get over ruled but I still want people's answer to this. Thank you for reading :)
Valiance (Lockdown)
Facts about the Valiance:
+Deals reliable knockback
+Fires 3 shots
+Hits dodgers
-Doesn't do much damage
-Doesn't interrupt anything
The fourth factoid is the reason why most people actually don't use Valiance. Alchemers are the bread-&-butter damage dealers of a gunslinger; they can even out-damage swords on some occasions, or so I've heard. Antigua-line guns are fire lots of bullets without any shenanigans, and are pretty forgiving to use. Against weak targets, even they out-damage the Valiance. It doesn't even interrupt anything like the Pulsar and Magnus.
But very few other guns deal knockback. Sometimes, you can just stand still and pummel your enemies with Valiance, either keeping them away from you or even pushing them out of range. Remember, how do gunslingers manage to stay alive? You got it - they keep their distance. Valiance pretty much does it for you. Even better, the fact that it can hit dodgers means you can use it against everything, including devilites and wolvers, in keeping with its normal-damage versatility. Its high shot count allows you to spread out your shots against enemies you have trouble hitting.
That's my $0.02.
Nothing more lame that a player shooting at you and then running away when you get near.
in other words. I hate gunners.
But.
It isn't nearly as overpowered in the clockworks.
Likewise.
Blitz needle isn't nearly as powerful in lockdown. That does not need a buff.
This is the subtlest troll thread I've seen in a while.
D
@Thinslayer
+Deals reliable knockback
+Fires 3 shots
+Hits dodgers
-Doesn't do much damage
-Doesn't interrupt anything
+1 Yes, it does deal knockback and that keeps you alive. When someone is trying to rush at you - Pew Pew You've stopped them in their tracks. Now you can either run away, or keep shooting them, effectively keeping them at bay or pissing them off.
+2 Another annoying factor about Valiance. Even if you try to avoid getting shot, you will get hit by it's fast bullets. This is not easy but definitely much easier to do then the other guns.
-1 Are you kidding? This gun is pretty powerful, just a tad lower than alchemers. It compensates easily for its high damage and bullet speed.
-2 Valiance doesn't interrupt anything? So if I shot you in the face in mid swing, would you continue that swing? If you charged at me with a Gran Faust, would you brush off the bullet and smack me?
Alchemers are the bread-& -butter damage dealers of a gunslinger? Please, spectate a few matches and see which one is more common. Some gunslingers DO carry around an alchemer, but never end up using it. It gets shot a few times in the game, only hitting its mark once.
Give me an example of when an Antigua line outdamages a Valiance. The invisi frames make this gun hella weaker, because half of the shots dont even register. AND antigua line weapons are much harder to aim then a Valiance. Try comparing that skinny line to a blue energy ball.
Even better, the fact that it can hit dodgers means you can use it against everything
So you go into a game of lockdown, and start capping a point at the middle of Stadium. Here comes a Shadowsun-Valiance user! Your options are to A) Attempt to swipe at him B) Return fire C) Run away
Like you said, Valiance can hit dodgers, twisters, blisters, etc. That's why it's so annoying, it keeps enemies off of you. B) This is basically going to result in a mating ritual, but you get blood instead of a baby :o C) Now, the gunslinger takes your capture point and you walk into a Gran Faust combo. The end. <-- Happy Ending
I mean, what's the counter for Valiance? Do you whip out your own and start pewing? Or do you use a not-as-powerful-antigua-line-weapon? I want there to be more options to counter this weapon, or a nerf to this gun. Otherwise this remains the number one swordsman sidearm.
Of course if you make a 5* Winmillion, i'll graveyard this in an instant.
P.S ''But it isn't nearly as overpowered as it is in the Clockworks.''
Are you agreeing with me?
I wasn't aware that you were referring solely to Lockdown. I was thinking of it in a Clockworks context. Now read my answers in that light.
As for Valiance in Lockdown, that's a completely different story:
+Deals knockback
+Interrupts
+Fast bullets
+Fires 3 shots
-Deals normal damage
When its shots connect, it pushes players away, negating the advantages of swords, which are normally good against gunslingers. Like most damage sources in Lockdown, it interrupts player attacks at a decent rate. Its relatively high shot count (compared to alchemers) allows the player to spread the shots out for a better chance of a hit. The downside is that it deals normal damage, which nearly every player in Lockdown is resistant to in high quantity. Hence, it should deal less damage against players than similar weapons of other damage types. How much less damage it does is debatable.
I've rarely used a Valiance in Lockdown myself, much less to good effect, so I can't speak about its OP-ness. It seems to be inferior to the Polaris, from what I've seen. I don't recall ever killing anyone in LD with a Valiance.
"Give me an example of when an Antigua line outdamages a Valiance. The invisi frames make this gun hella weaker, because half of the shots dont even register. AND antigua line weapons are much harder to aim then a Valiance. Try comparing that skinny line to a blue energy ball."
An Antigua is essentially a Twin-Linked Blaster. Three shots with twice the likelyness of a hit.
That's how it's superior.
This thread is about discussing a weapon, not suggesting a means of changing it. That means it goes upstairs and whoever moved it to suggestions should be slapped several times.
@Hexzyle It is NOT a Twin-Linked Blaster. You have to count for the invisi frames and the fact that it's bullets are much smaller then that of a Valiance. It is also much harder to aim, unless your enemy is standing still or is shocked. The most hits you can push in is 3, and that's if you are skilled enough.
Reminder to All:This is about Lockdown.
What's to say that the bullets don't have the same hitbox? And why are enemies harder to hit with the Antigua, last time I checked, both bullets travel fast enough to be almost hitscan.
You obviously didn't get the concept of Twin-Linking, so I'll explain the mechanics:
Valiance fires one shot, and hits or misses. Delay between shots is long enough to allow inivisi frames to wear off
Antigua fires two shots in close succession. If the first hits, the second has no effect due to invisi frames. If the first misses, the second has a chance of hitting, essentially "re-rolling" your misses.
Both guns can do this three times before needing to reload. Now tell me how firing two shots at an enemy is less likely to do damage than firing one?
@Thinslayer Sorry, I should have made that much more clear :(
I agree to much of what you said above, except for this part:'ve rarely used a Valiance in Lockdown myself, much less to good effect, so I can't speak about its OP-ness. It seems to be inferior to the Polaris, from what I've seen. I don't recall ever killing anyone in LD with a Valiance.
Since it seems as though you don't play much Lockdown, you won't see too much Valiance action in a few games. I'm talking about people like Ezho and basically anybody in Aequitas. These users are truly experienced with Valiance and can hit their targets extremely well. We all know this takes skill but there is absolutely NO counter to Valiance. Maybe i'm strolling into a capture point with my Barbarous Thorn Blade and Gran Faust. *Poof, there's Icegill in all his mightiness. Ka-Ching ( :O ) and you've lost half your health trying to fight him. You pretend to retreat but Ice shoots your back with a Valiance. You try to counter but get hit by his Valiance while striking. Usually encounters don't use as much Valiance but when someone does whip it out, you have to hope they are of low skill level. Yes, a Polaris seems superior to a Valiance. However, a Valiance can either dispose of or chip out damage from their target. When a Polaris user uses his two shots, there tends to be a small space between them.
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=837&tbm=isch&t...
A Valiance user can either shoot through this small gap OR shoot the Polaris user as another wave of shots are coming. Since Polaris bullets are quite slow, you have a small amount of time to walk forward and get a easier shot.
I don't think Valiance is more powerful than any of the other guns. I use it because the bullets are fast, it has decent knockback, and it has a 3 shot clip. This makes it quite effective in 1v1 battles against other strikers, but players can be equally effective with other guns. Anybody using an Alchemer/Driver can kill you just as quickly with freeze/shock/fire.
The bottom line is: you're going to have problems killing skilled players, no matter which guns they are using.
You clearly haven't played enough LD (Yet you tell that to others)
The majority of us here agree that Alchemers are the most widely used gun in LD.
The reason being is because they deal a ton of damage, shoot fast (switchshootong), and occasionally (ALL THE TIME) deal helpful statuses.
NOW. Valiances are very versatile, versatile enough in fact to be used in tandem with Alchemers for switchshooting. This could be one reason people bring Valiances.
Now lets think realistically: what is the most common armor seen in LD?
I'm about to say its Skolvers, but if I haven't seen enough LD and its mercurial or Vog or something, that's fine with me.
Anywho. Skolver, Vog, and Mercurial ALL have normal defense. Guess what Valiance deals? Right, normal defense. You get a shot that armor protects against.
Now, Alchemers can deal either pure elemental or shadow damage. Guess what defense Skolver DOESN'T have? Bingo, Elemental and Shadow. Vog lacks shadow, as does Mer-ok why am I even talking abt Mercurial I was joking when I brought it up-meaning that an alchemer shot goes through, full damage, with no defense from the armor.
Bam, case closed, Lets all get pizza or something, QED
Don't try to balance things based on lockdown. Lockdown is a very small part of the game, and normal tactics DO NOT aplly there. If you try to balance things based on lockdown, it will screw up the rest (which is most) of the game.
Ethraes is right, LD is a VERY small portion of the game, in LD, people complained about flourishes and shivers... so people countered by getting skolver coats, then people are getting Voltic storms, so people get mercurial, alchmers, vog... Valience... Ironmight... Do I have to tell you this stuff for you? LD is very fickle, come up with your own tactic, use it well, and people will complain, but really, it's not much better than the other weapons and could be easily countered.
Also, Luguriu is right, slap that person's face RIGHT NOW! Oh, and move it to the arsenal.
OP had obviously just played several consecutive games with skilled valiance users that whooped his behind, so he did what most people do - make a thread about how it's overpowered and ask for it to be nerfed.
Oh damn, i'm getting a lot of negatives. Anyway, i'll keep fighting. This will go into the graveyard soon though, trust me.
@Breaker-Xd Yes alchemers are common in Lockdown, but it is again, ruled out by the Valiance. Let's say a Shadowsun gunslinger comes up to me with Storm, Umbra/Hail/Magma whatever. Even if you tried your best, what's to stop a truly experienced player from pushing that gunslinger back and chipping off his health? Like I said earlier, I want to see either a nerf or a counter for this weapon.
Yes, most armors have normal resistance. However, this gun is quite a monster in Lockdown. I'm not sure if i'm correct but I BELIEVE it does 3 1/2 bars or more. I'll test some. I had a test in Lockdown against my Skolver buddy (thanks Boodo) and a Storm (without shock damage) does 4 bars. An Umbra does 5.
@Hexyzyle It is I to say. You haven't EVER compared the two bullets? I mean, you have to notice. The Sentenza/Argent Peacemaker shoots out skinny little lines while Valiance has pretty big energy balls (._.). In fact, it's bullets are the second biggest in the game, second to the Pulsar line. Yes both bullets travel fast enough (but Sentenza is a bit faster). However, it's that teeny tiny hit box that makes it so hard to use. Props to Solimando for using it. If you've ever whipped out an Antigua and tried to hit people (or even monsters), don't you find hitting Wolvers, Develites, etc difficult? Yes of course it is viable in Lockdown but you have to understand how difficult it is compared to Valiance. Have you tried hitting Wolvers and Develites then? Much easier.
Sentenza/Argent Peacemaker does less damage then Valiance.
@Troupe-Forums Tell me, how do I counter a Valiance user from afar? Do I shoot some alchemer bullets while they fade right in front of them? Or do I fight back with another Valiance, which seems like the only solution. You can try Polaris spamming but most likely won't hit.
@Fropps & Etharaes Arsenal it is.
Perhaps 1 on 1 Valiance has a slight advantage to other guns, but that is what I see most when spectating LD, no teamwork.
"Even if you tried your best, what's to stop a truly experienced player from pushing that gunslinger back and chipping off his health? Like I said earlier, I want to see either a nerf or a counter for this weapon."
1. Put on Ironmight Plate armour.
2. Play as a Guardian.
3. You are now heavily resisting normal damage and immune to knockback. Also you have a shield that is just about immune to bullets.
4. Walk up to that guy's face and do whatever the hell you want.
1.Ironmight doesn't benefit any weapon, neither does it protect against different damage types.
2.Play as Guardian and slowly lumber up to him while he boosts off?
3.Huh? Immune to knockback? This got me kinda confused. That shield is not immune to bullets, I have broken it with my alchemers/Sentenza/Valiance. Not to mention that small ''tick'' whenever you put your shield up and get shot.
4. WHATEVER the hell you want? The Valiance user can interrupt your attacks or walk away. Yes, I said walk because a recon is the same speed of a guardian.
I really hope i'm not ticking some people off from some point I haven't seen yet. If I am, well sorry.
Second biggest bullet? You forgot magnus.
Guardian can't be knock back at all. They will stay whatever knockback attack throws at them. That also makes them easier target though. And it seems, for people with worse connection (like myself probably), any knock back or damage applies on myself lag more (freeze like 1 sec) than when you hit other people.
@Poopsie Yes, I considered Magnus and I believe they're about equal. Since the Valiance's bullets are round, it gives it a slightly bigger hitbox?
Sorry about the Guardian. I have yet to notice this despite the fact that I see Guardians mauled by Gran Fausts every day ._.
I'm not sure if you're on my side or not... but if you're not don't respond :DD
Oh this thread isn't going well...
Agree with Munuver, but I this gun isn't the first in line in my mind to be getting a nerf...
I've gotten my personal high in damage with just a valiance/FF. My usual counter to a pure valiance user is either sentenza and a blade, or pure recon if their ping is low and asi is vh+.
Sentenza is still my gun of choice, but valiance has such power...
I honestly think it's a more useful gun in the hands of a hybrid
@Blueflood Omg, that boosted my morale so much :D
Are you thinking about Polaris? :P
There are many hybrids who use this, but it is still pretty powerful in the hands of a gunslinger.
You hear that non-believers? :o I got dat Blueflood swag on mah side.
Valiance isn't BAD, per-say, but it certainly DOESN'T need a nerf.
It's far from uncounterable.
Its far less nerf-worthy than Polaris, GF, etc etc etc.
Blueflood is right, it's great in the hands of a hybrid, but Alchemers are still unarguably the bread and butter of the gunslinger setup. (For good reason too)
@Breaker-Xd This nerf will probably NEVER happen but I want to see opinions from other players. Obviously, it seems most people think Valiance is quite balanced and fair.
It's far from uncounterable? Examples, please. (You know, other than another Valiance ._.)
I agree, that Polaris needs a nerf :P But what I was trying to say was that a Valiance user can chip out a Polaris user till raging point :D GF shouldn't need a nerf, but there are those with terrible connections and can't dodge :/ I haven't seen any GF/DA threads around here.
but Alchemers are still unarguably the bread and butter of the gunslinger setup.
Again, i'm going to have to disagree with you being the stubborn donkey that I am. Maybe you've seen alchemer switchers deep down in T2 (assuming because i've seen your thread), but in T3, Valiance gets so much more powerful.. As I repeated before, most gunners DO carry alchemers, but very few of them actually hit their marks. In T3, there are some alchemer switchers as well, but none of them withstood my Valiance Yes I have one, I never said I didn't now did I >:O). Alchemers bullets are pretty slow (though nowhere as close as pulsars) and you need to aim maybe 1/2 or 1 square to the side if they're strafing, depending on how far they are. It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to hit anybody directly in front of me if they're longer then 5 squares in front of me.
In T2, I assume you don't see much Blaster action because of how weak it is down there. I'm sure you've seen Cyclops Cap gunslingers running around with their Cryotechs and Watertechs Mk II. The Blaster bullet there is also much slower then in T3, maybe only 2/3 the speed.
Most gunslingers wear Shadowsun. Some gunslingers tend to have an Umbra Driver or Storm Driver (from what i've sen). Some gunslingers bring a Sentenza. And most gunners bring a Valiance for full effectiveness. Even without prior training, I was able to kill Skolvers/Vogs/Snarbys/Furrys without much trouble at all.
Alchemer switching is where my profession is at. I have seen how they function and how other guns function. I have been mauled by high speed bullets, that cancel all of my attacks and leaves me mini-stunned for a second. To me, I think that is the biggest challenge a gunslinger can ever get, fighting against their own weapons. My alchemers are so slow and won't register at all, even if I shoot a bullet through the chest. I try to do my best but against high speed projectiles, but I stand little chance. I guess Lockdown is a small part of the Spiral Knights community, but me and lots of other people enjoy playing it. This thread's going in maybe one or two days :)
I'm glad you saw my T2 threads :)
My correction would be that T2 is almost ubiquitously Kilowatt Pulsars
But I've since seen my fair share of T3 as well. Gunslingers can get the jump on other knights by launching off Alchemer charges. These things have massive spread because of both the many projectiles and the recochet, and dodging a charge fired into your vicinity is damn hard. I really don't see why you argue that no one can ever Mae contact with Alchemers. If anything, ricochet makes it more forgiving; you get 2 chances per shot to hit the target, and if said target gets hit, odds are he's in for a big SHOCK, or FREEZE,
Alchemers have approximately the same firing rate and bullet speed as Valiance, but their recochet, charge spread, and status make them more widely used in T3.
Yes, I still think Alchemers are the bread and butter for gunslingers seeking damage in T3
"1.Ironmight doesn't benefit any weapon, neither does it protect against different damage types."
You were asking for a counter to Valiance, last time I checked, and that only deals normal. Since Valiance is apparently the most overpowered weapon in the history of ever, shouldn't that be your top priority? Ironmight has a lot of normal defence. That protects you against Valiance. You should use Ancient Plate, really, seeing how Valiance is your only worry and all the Polaris, Flourishes, Sentenzas and Gran Fausts don't scare you. So suit up in plate armour and use whatever gun you want to counter Valiance. Seeing how they have to get within range of your Sentenza or Callahan to shoot at you in the first place, just kill them with those while you take just about no damage.
Anyways. You want a counter to Valiance? Nitronome. I've fought a bunch of Valiance users with Nitronome and they barely ever scratch me. My biggest problem, using bombs, is Alchemers.
@Breaker-Xd But I've since seen my fair share of T3 as well. Gunslingers can get the jump on other knights by launching off Alchemer charges. Alchemer charges are kinda hard to pull of since most experienced players will noticed a yellow glowy-glow at the bottom of the screen or um, your erect gun. >:O
If anything, ricochet makes it more forgiving;
The ricochets aren't useful unless there are more than one people at the point, and not all of them tend to bounce of people.
Alchemers have approximately the same firing rate and bullet speed as Valiance, but their recochet, charge spread, and status make them more widely used in T3.:/ Maybe i'm reading something wrong cause its early for me but same firing rate and bullet speed? Alchemers have a two shot clip :/ Nor are their bullets faster or equal to a Valiance, that's why it's so much harder to aim. Charge spread, ehh it can be helpful at times but not enough to catch an experienced player off guard. Sees* glowy-glow OH SHYIT-Zooms off.
@Zeddy Damn Zeddy, I don't think anybody has ever argued with you before.
Since Valiance is apparently the most overpowered weapon in the history of ever
I didn't say that :( I've wanted that Polaris nerfed ages ago and nothing happened. I thought it to be futile to make another Polaris thread so I made a Valiance one (nobody makes these :o).
You should use Ancient Plate, really, seeing how Valiance is your only worry and all the Polaris, Flourishes, Sentenzas and Gran Fausts don't scare you.
I didn't say that Zeddy :( I said Valiance was that biggest priority of a gunslinger OH FOR GOD SAKES CAN I JUST WRITE GUNNER?!!
Ehem* Obviously, there WILL be other troubles with other Lockdown players who will want to buttrape you. And idk if i'm looking at the wrong post, but I do believe I said BIGGEST challenge a gunslinger can get.
So suit up in plate armour and use whatever gun you want to counter Valiance
I know you weren't being specific but let's say Biohazard...
Seeing how they have to get within range of your Sentenza or Callahan to shoot at you in the first place, just kill them with those while you take just about no damage.
Using a Sentenza is just absolutely TIRING. You need a ridiculously good amount of aim and that gun does even less damage against those Shadowsuns and Snarby/Black Kat Cowlz. Even through the bullets i'm shooting at one person, I predict two of those hits will land, maybe doing 5 bars if they're wearing Shadowsun ._. The average Lockdown striker has 32 health so i'll just repeated the process 6 times... and I lose half my health in the process because Valiance can still shoot at me. Callahan against a Valiance? Maybe you're absolutely godlike with it but I am NOT.
I've fought a bunch of Valiance users with Nitronome and they barely ever scratch me.
BARELY ever scratch you? Let's say you're on a capture point with your Nitronome. Maybe one Valiance user comes up and starts pummeling you with bullets. Since you're charging up your bomb, invisi frames are not on your side. Also i'm no expert, but I Valiance that can't hit a Nitronome user? :/
I must insist on the Nitronome thing. Nitronome's blast radius is larger than Valiance' range, so you can simply use every Nitro you plant as cover. Usually the Valiance wielder will grow frustrated, edge closer and closer to the radius in a futile effort to hit me and eventually get blasted.
And I'm very certain Sentenza at least matches the damage of Valiance.
Handgun damage chart.
Bomb damage chart.
Now, you can't know the "true" damage of Valiance since it has no specialized variants, but let's be generous and add 67, for a total of 174 damage. (It will not be any more than this.)
Sentenza does 110 per shot.
Deadly Crystal Bomb does 162 damage per shard, which is pretty close to Valiance.
Undefended, Deadly Crystal does 5.5 pips of damage in Lockdown. This is at least 5*40 = 200 damage. Against someone in Shadowsun/Skolver, also known as Literally The Only Armours That Exist, Deadly Shard Bomb, the normal variety, is reduced to 2.5. This is no more than 3 * 40 = 120 damage, most likely less. If we scale up Sentenza to the same amount as Deadly Crystal, we get at least 110 * (174/200) = 126 damage. Keep in mind I've restrained these number to be as generous towards Valiance as possible, here. All the numbers could be about 15 damage higher or lower.
If you have numbers of your own showing Valiance to truly be the higher damage dealer against someone with no shadow defence, I'd love to see them. Mine are only theoretical, after all. It is occuring to me that since your super professional super Valiance owner is probably wearing Shadowsun, you'll want Argent Peacemaker.
@Zeddy >.< Nice
I must also insist on the Nitronome thing. I don't see this bomb too much but on occasions when I do, the most noticable thing about that bomb is that it doesn't linger. This gives your attacker some time to either shoot some bullets are run in there with a quick FF/BTB strike.
I'm not even going to argue with damage because i'm trusting all this evidence yo're giving me to be true.
I've never made it clear as to what kind of person uses this weapon the best in their hands, have I? Well I meant hybrids. Some of them use Chaos, Black Kat Cowl, or a mix of the two. I can already see i'm wrong, having a chat with another player in game. Thanks all for putting time into this :)
I have no idea why I am bumping this post. Anyways:
Now at the sense that there are different damage types of valiance, most peEps would say its OP right....?
Points of View:
Pro person with money: God get all 3 versions than become op in lockdown!
Person that has no money: I would rather get the Valiance and play PvE.
So yeah.... personally I think it depends on how much money you have. I would still go for Valiance because sometimes, the pro people has no normal defense (divine + silvermail) and than I can own them with it. PERSONAL OPINION.
One simple word.
Nope.