Give Brandishes and Alchemers an arbitrary hit limit of 1. That way, the freeze versions won't break their own freeze from the same charge or shot!
A welcome buff for Glacius and Hail Driver
You do realize putting a hit limit on alchemers and brandishes would be a severe (but balancing) nerf to them?
Absolutely! It's so annoying when one attack freezes then unfreezes an enemy.
I don't really feel like the alchies are OP, they're just OP compared to other guns. But other than that, +1! Brandish nerf needed. Also, you're calling a severe nerf a "buff" (when the damage is probably more useful than the freeze). Kinda misleading.
I was expecting a lot more rage about putting the shard bomb nerf on alchemers and brandishes, so I thought I was being humorous with the title.
Not one ragepost yet. You guys never cease to surprise me.
I think the Glacius and the Cryotech is meant to be used to immobilize enemies while dealing with other ones. So the idea is to freeze a few, leave them, and attack other ones, then come back to kill them.
This might defeat the whole purpose of the brandish line though.
Just hear me out when I say this could affect the damage output of some brandishes, mainly ones that cause enemies to ride the blast wave (combuster and acheron).
Plus, this could also harm the versatility and uniqueness of most of the other alchemer charges in terms of dealing multiple hits to a large crowd of enemies. If it were to be only one hit, then it would just be an elemental status Valiance without knockback.
The hit limit would not hinder alchemers ability to deal damage amongst a crowd. It would only apply per enemy just like shard bombs.
Another suggestion from someone that's still bitter about the shard nerf and wants everyone's fun to be ruined by everything being nerfed down to the same level of uselessness
So what you're saying is you agree this would balance the weapons out.
+1 To alchemer suggestion, I never use Alchemers, but I see them here and there and Cryotech's unfreeze freeze is annoying.
-1 to Glacius. Glacius is meant that way, else it would be SHOOPDAWOOP FREEZE AND THEN GO BACKSTABBING ;-)
Nice idea Zeddy.
Would really fix the problems with Freezing something and also balance them in terms of damage output if it were applied to all Alchemers and Brandishes.
You have the full support of this Gunner (or Gunslinger as I'm sure someone is going to try to correct me.)
And I hope you're not discouraged by the Brandish-swordies not liking the idea at all. They either don't understand satire or have their Brandishes so stuck up their helmets that they don't understand how ridiculous their power is.
"Give Brandishes and Alchemers an arbitrary hit limit of 1. That way, the freeze versions won't break their own freeze from the same charge or shot!"
Ok, I have been gunning since 3 months after release, and my favorite gun has always been the Hail Driver. I understand how it works.
So much hate it has been given, and so much people don't understand it. I assume you have one, 90% of people who comment on it don't even have one. So I am sort of irritated when people that don't know what they are talking about continue to bash the gun.
"breaking freeze on the same shot" is such an ignorant thing to say when you do not include the second part of the equation. You realize that double clipping is when a split bullet strikes after the initial on the same enemy. You realize that the split shots can cause freeze. You realize that sometimes the initial shot does NOT freeze and the clipped shot DOES? It has theoretically the same exact chance to keep an enemy freezed. After every one shot, there is the same chance for freeze to occur regardless of double clipping. The double clipped shot will break freeze just as much as it CAUSES freeze. The reason you cannot interpret which shot (initial or the clipped) causes the freeze is because there isn't big giant blue letters that appear before your eyes and then disappear suddenly that say "IT WAS THE DOUBLE CLIPPED SHOT".
Now I support your idea to nerf alchemers by stunting the possibilty of double clipping. It's a quirky mechanic, but you realize how quirky your suggested fix is? Magic, non-damaging bullets? Our shot bounces more than twice, and it is meant to strike multiple times. Just not against the same enemy in the quirky way that double clipping works. It would take more time to come up with a true solution.
Just don't ever, ever, ever, ever say again that "freeze is broken by the same shot" if you don't include the fact that double clipping can be the result of freeze.
I agree completely with troupe. This would make gunslingers even weaker(compared to swords) and you'd also need to nerf the DA charge, and the Blitz charge, and the hammer dash, . . .
Yes, guns are reasonably strong, but it doesn't half take long to kill in 4 man parties, especially if you removed inner rebounds.
Editing it all out. I'm not contributing to this mess.
This is not a troll thread. That does NOT make him ignorant, it just means he didn't think it through completely. What's more, he has mentioned that this thread is more or less a disguised nerf. Perhaps you should try looking at the differences between your and rawrcake's post, as all you're doing is flaming someone without a reason (...unless there's something I'm not aware of here?).
And as long as we're being needlessly hostile, you spelled "realize" wrong.
You must be new here. Zeddy's the person that does a lot of the data collection for the wiki This includes the game mechanics of weapons. If anything you need to do more research. The buff thing WAS a joke, but the actual subject matter isn't. "I'm a gunner" like that makes you know EVERYTHING about the gun, not to mention being able to be condescending to people in general?
Okay, I do not use the cryotech line.
I use the VOLTECH line.
Bit of a difference.
But the mechanics of them can be applied to the other.
When a voltech fires at a monster and hits it, it will have a chance of doing status, (shock) and do damage.
When a cryotech fires at a monster and hits it, it will have a chance of doing status, (freeze) and do damage.
The only difference there is the status, correct?
Now for the mechanics of the status.
Shock shocks a monster and if the bullet that causes it double clips and hits the monster again it just does damage.
I'm not so clear on freeze though, here's what I'm thinking but not sure about. if a monster with freeze is hit, there is a chance that the freeze will break, not a certainty. From my own play experience, this is true, but the wiki tells me otherwise.
If a monster with the freeze status applied is hit with a freeze applying projectile and the projectile breaks the freeze, does the projectile have a chance of re-applying freeze?
Please tell me the answers to these questions so I can continue.
@Fropps
Freeze will always break on hit. Whether that be from friend or foe. So the Cryotech Alchemers and Glacius hitting the same target twice, which in a lot of cases breaks the target out of Freeze, is a bit broken.
Yes, there's a chance for a re-Freeze, but it's best never to rely on that.
It's also better to never to rely on getting a second hit with the Alchemer on the same enemy due to glitchy game mechanics.
@other peoples
Honestly, I like the suggestion more for the fact that if it's applied to all Alchemers and Brandishes, it puts them on a level with most of the other equipment instead of standing above them all.
But even then there's still the DA/GF charge attack that strikes multiple times for ridiculous damage, Blitz Needle charge attack whose charge attack causes an inexplicably large amount of damage, and multi-hitting Hammer dashes. I'm even probably forgetting a few there.
(Not including the AP and Sen charges because the tremendous drawback of setting up the other 5 shots tends to balance it out in my opinion.)
And what is it with people begging for balance and then when a reasonable suggestion rolls around, they flame it to the ground? If you don't want people changing your weapons, then stop asking for balance. Sheesh.
Yes, freeze gets broken every time, but projectiles have a chance to re-freeze. This is what makes Hail Driver marginally less powerful than Storm Driver. For any given shot with Hail Driver, you get 1 chance to freeze an enemy, which is the chance of the final shot that hits them. For Storm Driver, you get 1 chance for every bullet that ricochets back onto the enemy. If, in the most extreme of scenarios, you manage to hit an enemy perfectly with a charge shot so that the charge projectile hits the enemy, the four ricochets hits the enemy, and the four ricochets from those again hits the enemy, you've had 9 chances to shock your victim. Doing the same with Hail Driver, you only have 1 chance, which is the last shot that hit them. (This is disregarding that such a perfectly hitting charge would totally murder anything but Vanaduke.)
The hit limit would not only balance Alchemer/Brandish with other weapons, but also balance other Alchemers with Hail Driver.
@Pixelhat
I love your art blog, man!
Editing it all out. I'm not contributing to this mess.
Editing it all out. I'm not contributing to this mess.
But I am keeping this here: Addisond, "realise" is the British spelling. Or rather, non-American / Canadian spelling.
Perhaps the alchemer charge is supposed to be the way it is to fill a niche in guns.
This niche is of a Long-Range high damage single shot that requires an amount of skill to pull off (basically a sniper).
Giving them any form of hit limit would just make them a crappy 2-shot gun that's outclassed in terms of crowd control, dps, damage, clip size and range by polaris.
I've seen you saying that you've never used an alchemer zeddy, so how do you know this would balance them?
I'll post my thoughts on brandish later when I'm not too tired to string a full sentence together
Editing it all out. I'm not contributing to this mess.
Why so mad?
BTW inios, Zeddy does work like gathering statistics. Like weapons, Health bars. And he uses the New ones. Ever heard of Shard Squad? I mean, gathering ways to make them useful makes one a crybaby?
I don't know why people thing to get so, pretentious when they think they're in the right.
How about this:
With the Brandish,
When the enemy is carried up to the fifth explosion, freeze activates then.
Edited everything. I realise that Zeddy posts incorrect information and statements on this subject because he is a biased bomber (or just a terribly uninformed general player). I will not spend my time correcting his ignorance.
"I've seen you saying that you've never used an alchemer zeddy, so how do you know this would balance them?" -Troup
Just saying.
I'll just go back and look for game hacks now.
I have used alchemers. You are probably referring to my recent statement where I said I never switch-shot alchemers, which is not the same as not having used alchemers.
Iron Slug does the same damage as an expanded Supernova. The shots have the same amount of interruption for all guns. All Iron Slug does over Supernova is faster traveling speed. To balance that out, Iron Slug has a two-shot clip, hinders movement, and the shots have no knockback.
Prisma Driver does the same damage as an expanded Polaris. Polaris probably has a bit more interruption and a shock status. With a hit limit, all Prisma Driver has over Polaris is faster traveling speed. To balance that out, Alchemers have a two-shot clip, do no knockback, deal no status, but does not get its movement hindered. Prisma Driver is also capable of ricocheting around walls and hitting up to three different targets that do not need to be clustered together. In addition, Prisma Driver does not push around enemies and disturb your teammates. Higher damage is also easier to achieve as damage output is not dependent on whether or not you're able to push an enemy into a wall. The Prisma Driver charge is also capable of hitting up to 9 different enemies that do not need to be neatly clustered around exactly where the charge got unleashed, although it will work in that situation as well. Polaris is most certainly not capable of that.
If you want a high-damage single-shot sniper gun that takes skill to use, there is Callahan and Iron Slug. The reason their charge attacks slow you down is because you're not supposed to be anywhere near danger upon using them. In the meantime, current alchemers are both high damage against single targets and crowd controllers; it needs to a pick a side.
"Prisma Driver"
Not that I have any problem referring to the gun in a lower * state, I just have this disturbing feeling (based on your past knowledge of handguns) that you are incapable of naming its 5* version without looking at the wiki. Hmm?
Nova Driver, got that from the top of my head.
I will admit to not having used the Prismatech line before.
Lets perspective this; we'll assume you will use full clips when firing.
Polaris: +Knockback
+ Shock
+ 3 shot clip
+ Interruption
- May push targets out of range, but this is usually a plus (If you're using the handgun as support)
Nova: +Ricochets
+ Ricochets (as it applies to charge)
- 2 shot clip. If not switch shooting = horrible DPS
- No knockback
- No shock (in PvP = a lot worse)
Both seem pretty balanced to me, especially when you consider that that if you're fighting multiple targets, the Polaris will also hit many monsters.
Brandish should be reverted to what it was ( a single explosion after charge) as DPS wise, I think it out does DA in combo and charge.
About the freeze/unfreeze argument.
Say an alchemer's charge hits an enemy twice. Say the chance of freeze is 50% (this is actually fairly true)
Chance of being frozen on first hit, then the second hit unfreezing an enemy: 50%
Chance of not being frozen on first hit, then the second hit freezing an enemy: 25%
Chance of not being frozen on either hit: 25%
Freeze chance is 25%
Now, lets say there's a hit limit:
Chance of being frozen on the first hit, then the second hit doing no damage: 50%
Chance of not being frozen on the first hit, then the second hit doing no damage: 50%
Freeze chance is 50%
However the major problem is that invincitinks unfreeze enemies. Fix that, and this will work, otherwise the Hail Driver would never cause freeze.
You forgot these about polaris:
- Makes it impossible to see
- Slow (usually a con but it's situational)
Hex, I really don't understand your math. Theoretically there are four possibilities-
1st freezes, 2nd freezes
1st freezes, 2nd doesn't
1st doesn't, 2nd freezes
1st doesn't, 2nd doesn't
This leaves the chance at 50%, still. ALL THAT MATTERS is the second hit, the first is an irrelevant variation. The method of disabling later ricochets simply shifts the focus to the first hit instead of the last one.
"It needs to be pick a side"
Why? A gun can be unique outside of it's function as vs. high density/low density.
I don't get Hex's math...
"chance of not being frozen on either hit: 25%"
"freeze chance is 25%"
Where did the other 50% go?
What it should be:
Chance of first hit freezing: 50%
chance of second hit freezing: 50%
chance of third hit freezing: 50%
since any hit after the one that inflicts freeze will remove the freeze, the only hit that matters is the last hit.
No clipping: first hit is last hit -> 50%
Double clipping: second hit is last hit -> 50%
Triple clipping: third hit is last hit -> 50%
chance of freeze is 50%
If you impose a hit limit, the only hit that can hit is the first. So:
hit limit: first hit is last hit -> 50%
chance of freeze is 50%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now compare that to what would happen to a Storm/Magma Driver:
Chance of status on first hit: 50%
Chance of status on second hit: 50%
Chance of status on third hit: 50%
Since subsequent hits don't cancel the first status, it looks like this:
Chance of NO status on first hit: 50%
Chance of NO status on second hit: 50%
Chance of NO status on third hit: 50%
~
Chance of no status on first + second hit: 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4 = 25%
Chance of no status on first + second + third hit: 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/8 = 12.5%
So, the chance of not getting a status on any hit is 12.5%. And since chance always must add up to 100%, that means:
Chance of status is 87.5%
Now if we impose the hit limit here, only one shot hits. So:
Chance of status on first hit: 50%
Chance of status is 50%
And of course, the same works with brandishes assuming the enemy rides the entire wave of explosions. The percentages are different because there are 5 explosions instead of three.
Conclusion:
This would not be a buff to the Ice status alchemer/brandish, but it wouldn't be a nerf either. It would be a nerf to all other status inflicting brandishes and alchemers.
It would be a nerf to ice ones too, klipik. Right now, there might be a 50% chance of causing freeze for an alchemer, but thats a 50% chance after double damage.
But it wouldn't be as much of a nerf, since it would only lose damage as opposed to damage and chance for status.
Also, it's worth mentioning that giving the brandish this nerf would go against the entire nature of the weapon; it's designed to hit enemies multiple times. Yes, I realize that it's probably OP, but changing it so that it's design and functionality are completely different is not the way to fix it. You'd end up with something like trying to use a catalyzer in LD- it doesn't actually do anything because the normal bullet triggers invincibility frames and prevents the explosions from doing damage.
"chance of not being frozen on either hit: 25%"
"freeze chance is 25%"
Where did the other 50% go?
Why did you chop out half my paragraph? I said:
Chance of being frozen on first hit, then the second hit unfreezing an enemy: 50%
Chance of not being frozen on first hit, then the second hit freezing an enemy: 25%
Chance of not being frozen on the first hit, then no freeze on the second hit either: 25%
(50% + 25% + 25% = 100%)
Therefore, Freeze chance is 25% (I bolded scenarios that end up with the monster frozen)
"since any hit after the one that inflicts freeze will remove the freeze, the only hit that matters is the last hit."
Incorrect.
If the second last hit causes freeze, the last hit will break the freeze, regardless of whether it would have frozen or not.
"Chance of first hit freezing: 50%
chance of second hit freezing: 50%
chance of third hit freezing: 50%"
Once again, for your 3 hit logic, you've failed to account for defreezes. The possible scenarios are:
1st hit causes freeze (50%), 2nd hit defreezes, 3rd hit causes freeze (50%) = 25%
1st hit causes freeze (50%), 2nd hit defreezes, 3rd hit doesnt cause freeze (50%) = 25%
1st hit doesnt cause freeze (50%), 2nd hit causes freeze (50%), 3rd hit defreezes = 25%
1st hit doesnt cause freeze (50%), 2nd hit doesnt cause freeze (50%), 3rd hit causes freeze (50%) = 12.5%
1st hit doesnt cause freeze (50%), 2nd hit doesnt cause freeze (50%), 3rd hit doesnt cause freeze (50%) = 12.5%
Therefore possibility of causing freeze is 37.5%
I'll take this a step further for those who don't yet understand and simulate a 4 hit scenario. F stands for caused freeze, N stands for did not cause freeze, and B stands for Broke Freeze.
N, N, N, N = .5^4 = 6.25%
N, N, N, F = .5^4 = 6.25%
N, N, F, B = .5^3 = 12.5%
N, F, B, N = .5^3 = 12.5%
N, F, B, F = .5^3 = 12.5%
F, B, N, N = .5^3 = 12.5%
F, B, N, F = .5^3 = 12.5%
F, B, F, B = .5^2 = 25%
Situations that ended in a freeze: 6.25% + 12.5% + 12.5%
Chance of ending up frozen after 4 hits = 37.5%
You're leaving out an option. You're forgetting "Chance that the first hit freezes an enemy and that the second hit also freezes the enemy." I'm pretty sure freezing hits can refreeze whether the target was already frozen or not. I'll go test it right now.
I'm not forgetting anything. If the first hit freezes an enemy, the second hit will break the freeze. Isn't that the basis of why you made this thread in the first place?
Ah, please do. And stop editing your post shortly after posting it: That's what I do!
We both tested it with Cold Snap, so unless Hail Driver works differently, freeze weapons are fully capable of refreezing a frozen target.
Disregard my above two posts: It is possible to reapply freeze without breaking it.
Zeddy, double post 10 minutes apart, wut?
We both tested it with Cold Snap, so unless Hail Driver works differently, freeze weapons are fully capable of refreezing a frozen target.
@Hex: Not sure if you're still standing by post #41, but if you are it's still wrong. If the second hit unfreezes an enemy, the first hit is irrelevant and the second is the only one that matters, which has 50%. But I guess that would change if you didn't know that you could freeze frozen enemies.
Although this would be nice, (as an old user of the Hail Driver) I don't want to see a bugfix like this until a Brandish/Alchemer nerf is shipped out in the same update.