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Damage Bonus vs. Attack Speed with health bars.

7 replies [Last post]
Thu, 04/04/2013 - 14:45
Dwarfwarlock's picture
Dwarfwarlock

So I joined like a week before the UI update, and now we have health bars. Health bars will now tell us wether or not we kill something just barely or overkill something. It can tell us if a low damage bonus leads to a monster's death with one entire less attack.

I am sort of theorycrafting (minus testing or math) as to which is better. Or really, I am just proposing a hypothesis.

From the advice I have been given, it has been a biased "oh damage bonus damage damage". Well, nobody who has given me advice has done tests for a comparison to attack speed increase.

I have my gear planned out, damage bonus vs. attack speed is irrelevant for my gear because going for one or the other intentionally means reaching past maximum. In other words, I am just theorycrafting and this will likely only affect those that don't come close to the maximum for either.

This game works in a way that killing a monster can be a matter of a few hits. Sometimes 3, sometimes 7, whatever. The point is that the amount of hits is small. The only exception is bosses.

Someone sitting and facing a wall attacking as much as they can for one minute to get a number will not work. We aren't fighting training dummies, but rather enemies that die quick.

It's now different for every person. If it takes my alchemer four hits to kill a mender, but the first three hits bring it to like 1% health (something that only now we can know), then a low damage bonus might be what pushes my alchemer over the edge to kill that mender in three hits.

What else does that mean? Well..... damage bonus past low will be unecessary, as it will likely remain a three hit kill wether or not I have an additional medium damage bonus. This means that damage bonus can theoretically be useless at a certain point in certain scenarios (albeit very specific, it could possibly be taken into account).

Attack speed? always useful. Even if it takes 3 hits to kill something regardless of how much I increase my ASI, my ASI will always make me shoot faster and, therefore, kill the enemy faster. However, it will never be extremely useful in specific scenarios like the previously mentioned low damage bonus that reduced a whole necessary shot.

That low damage bonus putting me over the edge to kill that mender in three hits rather than four will be so much more useful than any ASI obtainable. 25% less shots means that 25% attack speed increase would be necessary to even it out for DPS against that mender.

Tests according to the wiki suggest that each level of attack speed increase is worth 3.6% to 4%. This means that maximum ASI (around 24%) wouldn't even be as useful as that low damage bonus which pushes me over the edge to kill that mender in 3 hits rather than 4. 25% less shots > 24% faster shooting. theoretically and way different for every scenario.

However, with damage bonus potentially being useless in certain scenarios (that low damage bonus lets me kill the mender in 3 hits rather than 4. But what if, at very high damage, it still takes me three hits to kill it?) this means that it is possible that a low ASI bonus could potentially be better than very high damage bonus in very specific scenarios.

Does what I am saying make any sense? lol. What I am saying is that if we graphed the usefulness of damage bonus and ASI in how it increases DPS on a weapon, the graph for Damage Bonus would be spikier with potentially very huge benefits, but also potentially useless. The graph for DPS increased by ASI would gradually increase always, but it would never be significant (however, always reliable).

On bosses, however, everything would be useful, so target dummy tests would work. Bosses aren't a matter of 3 vs. 4 hits.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:08
#1
Thinslayer's picture
Thinslayer
Makes sense.

I see what you're saying. Have you tested this theory in the field?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:20
#2
Dwarfwarlock's picture
Dwarfwarlock
Well nothing formal, just my

Well nothing formal, just my current hypothesis still for me to mess with in the future. I just guessed after killing something until a mere 1% ish ( a scuttlebot) after 4 or 5 hits I thought. hmmmm. If I had a small amount of damage bonus, that would be ridiculously effective. But if I have more.... would it make a difference?

My planned future set for guns carries Maximum damage bonus + medium ASI. But.... what if that medium damage trinket is worthless on 90% of the enemies I face on my usual expeditions? What if my most hated enemy is taken down with one less hit due to that medium damage trinket?

It could mean the difference for me using that medium damage trinket or switching to ASI for all around effectiveness.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:19
#3
Bopp's picture
Bopp
is this what you're saying?

I haven't read your full post, but you seem to be saying: ASI gives a uniform boost of about 3.6%, whereas damage bonus sometimes gives a huge boost (3 hits to kill instead of 4) but sometimes gives no boost at all (3 hits to kill instead of 3). Is that what you're saying?

Yes, this is an important consideration when planning ASI, CTR, and damage bonus. It has been discussed many, many times. For example, it appears in my sword guide. It is the motivation for multiple projects, to measure the health of monsters, so that we can figure out how many hits each monster takes, and thus plan damage bonus rationally. If you go to the Wiki Editors forum, you can see thread about some of these projects.

The measurements are complicated by the fact that monster health depends on many factors, such as depth, party size, what your teammates are doing, etc. So we need all of the help we can get.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:27
#4
Dwarfwarlock's picture
Dwarfwarlock
Is that what you're

Is that what you're saying?

Absolutely.

The measurements are complicated by the fact that monster health depends on many factors, such as depth, party size, what your teammates are doing, etc. So we need all of the help we can get.

And I mostly just posted this for now because we got one major factor that let's us test this much, much, much easier: enemy health bars. We may be getting more help quicker than we expected now.

And of course I am new so I am sorry I missed any past threads related to this.

Of course I did forget that enemy health changes based on depth.... that would make this ridiculously hard to manipulate.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:30
#5
Lukehandkooler's picture
Lukehandkooler
I *think* Lancer Knights have

I *think* Lancer Knights have a table for all weapons like this.

unfortunately, in as much as monster health pools change depending on party number and are already offset by the fact that it already takes a different amount of rounds to kill various things, I believe you are chasing rabbits. For every correction you would try to make tweaking DMG vs ASI, you would most likely worsen another kill scenario within the same area of influence, barring bosses of course.

Edit~ Also these new health bars make counting your shots a lot less relevant because you can pretty much see if the next volley is going to kill something or not rather then having to keep mental tabs on which monsters have taken what amount of damage.

~Luke

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:29
#6
Dwarfwarlock's picture
Dwarfwarlock
Good point Luke

Yeah and I forgot about how party health is larger for number of players.... it may just be best to do target dummy tests for boss purposes.

If we weren't going general puspose and instead were looking at something like if I wanted to kill greavers much faster, I could gear towards that specifically.

I'll probably just go damage > ASI for now.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:36
#7
Lukehandkooler's picture
Lukehandkooler
FYI the dummies in the hall

FYI the dummies in the hall dont reflect pure vs less optimal damage types nor are they indicative of what weapon (stars, heat) vs Strata will yield.

Sorry to be a downer, I really appreciate theory crafting and what you are trying to do.

~Luke

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