Spiral Knights - Bomb Revamp

Bomb Revamp

19 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 07:18

Putkinen

What if bombs damaged the player? *dodges rotten tomatoes as his ears ring from the boos*

Well, that was fun. Seriously though, could be kinda fun? Vortexes slightly pulling you toward them, Vaporizers freezing you in your tracks, etc. You're wearing a demo suit for a reason, are you not? It'd make bombing less about.. just running in a little circle, blowing yourself up with yet another Nitronome with no ill effects while everything else flies away. It's just kind of lame right now. If bombs damaged you as well, you'd have to focus more on footwork and your choice of armor would be more meaningful. A Mad Bomber suit would be just that, a suit for the bomber that isn't as worried about blowing himself up as he should be. Volcanic suit is/would be focused on keeping you alive, now with the addition of keeping you safer from your own infernos if you're just a little too slow whereas Bombastic, a set that makes your bombs slow to set but the blasts stronger would keep you from trapping yourself with your own snares as you set up the bigger charge in the midst of the enemy. Mercurial would be uniquely suited for dealing with vortexes, the increased speed allowing you maneuver more easily as you try to set up your charges in proximity to them and protecting you from the worst of it if you fail. Demo gear could reduce the self-damage somewhat, making less specialized kit more hazardous to use in comparison but that's not necessary. Stun resistance should be included in the line for thematic and practical reasons.

The change would effect the bombs themselves dramatically too. Now that you can't just set up a Nitronome in a tiny space without hurting yourself, a shard bomb might actually be.. useful? The radius of the outer detonations would leave a little safe zone in the middle. If the initial scattering blast did minimal damage and knockback, you could block it with your shield still have time to reach the spot before the other charges blow you up. Lower-end vaporizers are much easier to run away from, meshing nicely with only the best demo gear having specialized status defenses. Bigger blast radius and non-family specific damage wouldn't automatically be better, making the high-end choices more interesting.

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What do you think? I thought this would be fun to talk about at least. Any specialists that wanna chip in? Naturally bomb damage itself would have to be adjusted to compensate for the fact that you can't place as many without killing yourself. No need to even say that.

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And just to be clear, you would not be able to blow up your teammates. Because duh. :|

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 07:35

Thunder-The-Bright

you really want to dodge tomatos.
even if I am not a bomber (my only bomb in the arsenal is the proto) I would say that this would destroy bombs as weapons. mist dealing statuses to the user alone would make mist bombs a rip off.
bombs are meant to be spammed (see BN). don't do this to bombs.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 08:01

Zeddy

I think this would be fun, but you've got to admit this is a straight up nerf to bombs in general. I expect you have a buff in mind to compensate for it.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 08:09

Gzilla

C-C-C-Comber Breaker

Bombers are ignored as/is we don't need another penalty for bombing, this would just discourage some newer players to become bombers, or deter older more experienced bombers.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 08:17

Oatmonster

Lick Number 58425

How would this make Shard Bombs more useful?

Why should bombs be the only things that damage their users? To me, it looks like the player is well within the shockwave of Triglav charges; why shouldn't those hurt the player too?

People can easily catch up to Catalyzer and Pulsar shots, should those damage their users too?

You know what else is "lame?" The fact that we have infinite bombs and infinite ammunition for our guns. We should change that. It's also lame that you can stick your sword through a wall without any ill effect. Swords should break whenever they clip anything hard. The broken pieces would fall to the ground and anything that stepped on it would take damage.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 08:58

Luguiru

And when swords break they are permanently removed from your knight and you have to craft a new one to replace it.

For guns if you use the charge attack too often it has a chance to overload and blow up your right arm, forcing you to use your left until that one blows up from all the gun charge spam and you have to delete your knight and start over completely. While you only have one arm from one being blown up you can still use a shield but shield cancelling is not possible.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:04

Putkinen

I hope you actually read the whole post. Never know with people.

Try not to be so snarky, it's really not called for. Honestly though, blowing up in your own Pulsar shots would be funny and nerf the gun a bit. +1 from me. :)

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Just to be clear, inherent to this change would be making bombs do tons and tons of damage. Otherwise, what's the point of using them? Even shard bombs would be useful if they created a circle of death around you. But hey, you mess up and don't reach the safe area.. Boom. Mind you, you still have a shield and I'm not advocating instant death here. And as said, people don't use bombs much as is. Maybe a change to make them more interesting would change that?

Proto bomb, a training weapon, has a small blast radius for a reason. That's the idea here, different areas of effect and effects would need to be considered from a safety standpoint as well seeing as you'd now need to get out of the way before the thing blows up in your face. Vaporizers would still be usable because high end armor would make you straight up immune to them and the smaller areas of effect of the lower end variants is easily avoided. The things could use a rework in general though but I'm not gonna go there.

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Oh and uh, Thunder.. spamming bombs in Blast Network gets you killed. You're trying to use a game mode built around planning your bomb use to keep you from killing yourself while killing others as evidence as to why this can't work. Oops?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 09:15

Addisond

You really, REALLY like tomatoes. Anyway, this defeats TONS of bombing techniques that were previously possible. It sounds like you're soloing a lot, bombing is more complicated in parties.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 09:26

Gzilla

@Put

This would make things HARDER and DETER people from bombing, what part of that do you not understand? People would stay away from bombs if they knew that they could kill you, it wouldn't be attracting more bombers, it would be deterring them.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 09:41

Little-Juances

OOO already hates bombers anyways. For all we know, this dude could get a job as Nick's personal assistant right now.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 10:18

#10

Zeddy

I can see it working, personally. Always liked bombing in EDF2017. How much damage boost are we talking here? 100%? 200%? Would the user take the full damage? What about teammates?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 10:35

#11

Firefistace

Only if

Sure lets do that, and while we are at it make it so guns and swords hurt teammates too

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:19

#12

Thunder-The-Bright

mmm.

I saw guys spamming bombs at BN and not getting killed while killing others many times. luck?
while I get rarely to 3 bombs and I die. by myself. lack of skill, I know.
but by "spamming bombs" I mean continuosly getting them on the ground. while you mean continously getting bombs on the ground without any pattern and just run from the explosions. which doesn't work.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:52

#13

Putkinen

Hmm.

Then how come guns aren't the dominant weapon in the clockworks, Gzilla? Swords are far, far harder to use safely. It's clear that people are not entirely averse to risk if the weapon is good.

As for Zeddy, I dunno about numbers. I don't know how much damage a Nitronome does to a player. It'd be pretty pointless to introduce risk if it wasn't very powerful in return. If monster health dwarfs player health, the mechanics would need to reflect that. Hell, I don't actually know how many shards it takes to kill a zombie right now with the best gear available. That's why I made this thread, because I wanted to talk about it with people who actually have the know-how to fill in why it wouldn't work, why it would break PvP completely, talk numbers etc. Sigh, so much vitriol. If I knew people would get so defensive, I wouldn't have bothered. I just though it'd be interesting to talk about, you know?

Oh and Fire, it's considered smart/polite to actually read the things you comment on. I specifically noted that there would be no damage to teammates. I know how broken that would be.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 15:11

#14

Gzilla

@Put

For me, it's not that the idea is bad, I'm just worried if OOO were to actually implement this, the learning curve for bombs would be higher then it is, which isn't bad, keeps the nitrome spam in the clockworks to a minimal. I would actually use the bombs if they were tweaked like this, like Zeddy said, a buff would probably be issued, but what damage percentage should we buff bombs by, this would be a case by case basis, but it would be hard to implement.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 16:00

#15

Putkinen

Should be fine.

Damage taken in tier 1 is really minimal so I doubt it'd pose any real threat to newbies if they blew themselves up a little bit. Reviving costs less energy too. They'd eventually learn to get out of the radius.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 16:40

#16

Father-Frost

RE: Putkinen

You understand that OOO hates bombers please don't give them more ideas to nerf us.

P.S. You can't escape a irontech's radius well charging another so this would be a rather big hindrance to the current highest DPS blast bomb.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 17:13

#17

Hexzyle

You were wondering about damage...

Nitronome deals about 200-230 damage, which is nearly 6 hearts worth.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 17:21

#18

Zeddy

A typical 5* player has 15 pips of health. 15*40 = 600. Most enemies have 450 health at depth 19 and 733 at depth 24.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 08:45

#19

Firefistace

So it does damage to you but not teammates?

Sense make

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Bomb Revamp