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Yo LatisanSklay/FortHood, this is the kind of stuff that you should be putting on your arsenal podcast stuff IMO

23 replies [Last post]
Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:04
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

This UI stuff.

I hesitate to call them this because it's ridiculous but- "Controversial Issues" like that where the playerbase is vaguely split. Explain both sides of the story, find out what the developers think, even try to interview them and then fail because they don't talk to us about said "Controversial Issues". Talk about Nick's quote in the testing forum, and about what players thought.

What does that gunners don't like the wheel-o-changing weapons say about the game's design?

Things like that. Ya. You probably already do discuss them, but if you don't then you should.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:09
#1
Paweu's picture
Paweu
Gunners don't like the wheel?

Gunners don't like the wheel? Why wouldn't gunners like the wheel? Surely you don't mean the exploiting part of playerbase that abuses as much they can weapon-switch-animation-cancelling?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:12
#2
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

It isn't exploitation though. As far as I know, we're allowed to juggle our guns while firing continuously. It's just how weapons in Spiral Knights work.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:15
#3
Paweu's picture
Paweu
How isn't it exploitation?

How isn't it exploitation? You can't get the same output without doing this. You are exploiting additional dps from a game mechanic oversight.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:15
#4
Shidara's picture
Shidara
@Paweu

To combat this, would you rather each gun have an amunition count that doesn't reset until you manually reload or reload upon running out of bullets?

Food for thought. Anyway, sorry for going off-topic.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:18
#5
Paweu's picture
Paweu
Ammo count wouldn't be

Ammo count wouldn't be needed, just a check if the animation is finished before switching to another weapon.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 15:36
#6
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

It's not exploiting because OOO hasn't stopped people that have directly told them about it. Why WOULD it be an exploit?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 16:48
#7
Grittle's picture
Grittle
They never directly told us

They never directly told us the One hit Koing mobs with old RSS was an exploit until the last second...

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 17:13
#8
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
...you think OOO has to tell

...you think OOO has to tell you something's an exploit before it actualy is? I know chu bettor fezor

Let's say I can walk through walls in-game by saying some magic words at my computer, without any use of 3rd party programs or client modification, and OOO has no idea it's even possible. When I'm in the floor grabbing your ankles without warning, watching you fall on your face every time I get a hold of those cute little footies of yours, are you going to say that it isn't an exploit because OOO hasn't said so yet? No, you use judgement to see if something is fair or not fair.

It's not nessecairaly wrong to say that this gun rolling isn't an exploit, but going "OOO, is this an exploit? say nothing if it isn't" is probabaly not great way to validate that point.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 17:38
#9
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

No, but I think that OOO knowing fully well about something that seems like an exploit and not telling us it's an exploit even when directly told makes it not an exploit. I believe that Zeddy actually reported someone for alch switching and got a "Pffft" back as a response. It's apparently a legitimate tactic? If one wants to come in here and tell me otherwise then I'll listen, but until then, I'm going to do it as much as I want and think nothing of it.

And I don't think they EVER told us that the old RSS's multihits were an exploit.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 18:13
#10
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

The response was something along the lines of "Thanks for telling us about this, we'll look into it!", which is OOO speak for "Go eat a shard bomb, we don't care."

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 18:31
#11
Burq's picture
Burq
That's a good point.

This entire thing has cause far too big an impact to not discuss it in the podcast, kinda interested to hear what they think of the entire fiasco.

And as much as I hate LD and the gunner strikes that weapon-switch everything to death, the fact that the weapon wheel affects them this way is hilariously sad, like an unexpected nerf that came from the dumbest of places and that no one could see coming. Leaning on the hilarious thou, I really do hate them that much.

Also, considering the weapon-switching is to cancel weapon animations to faster firing, wouldnt calling it an exploit mean that shield cancelling is also an exploit?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 18:38
#12
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
If you want my honest

If you want my honest opinion, it's kinda looks like an exploit, but its a fair enough one considering how OP some other things are on their own.

"Go eat a shard bomb, we don't care."
That's not incredibly mean actually. Shard bombs won't do much to your mouth anymore beca- (http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/122/7/8/beating_a_dead_horse_by_p...)

-but the question here pertains to OOO's magic-8 ball governed response crew. Does "we'll look into it" mean "no" or "try again later"?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 18:45
#13
Flamearc's picture
Flamearc
@paweu WATS THE (censored) IS WROGN WITH YOU

ummm... being a gunner.. I know it is not an exploit
You can obviously do this for swords too.. its called shield canceling or is that exploits too...
Do you have to swing all 3 hammer strikes or the rocket hammer? Do you have to use all 2 hits of a divine avenger?
If gunners have to finish both shots of a gun, swords should have to complete all their strikes!
Gunners are able to shield faster and switch faster because of ASI, not exploits.
Gunslinger haters these days....

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 19:25
#14
Klipik's picture
Klipik

+1 to OP, talk about UI update please. Also possibly current state of the game, but that might make two podcasts.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 20:25
#15
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Answer is hazy. Ask again later.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 00:04
#16
Paweu's picture
Paweu
"ummm... being a gunner.. I

"ummm... being a gunner.. I know it is not an exploit
You can obviously do this for swords too.. its called shield canceling or is that exploits too...
Do you have to swing all 3 hammer strikes or the rocket hammer? Do you have to use all 2 hits of a divine avenger?
If gunners have to finish both shots of a gun, swords should have to complete all their strikes!
Gunners are able to shield faster and switch faster because of ASI, not exploits.
Gunslinger haters these days...."

You should work on your reading comprehension. Not once did I say that this should be fixed for just gunners. But I guess, in blind rage, you can only see whatever you want to see.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 02:24
#17
Aureate's picture
Aureate
It's annoying even without switch shooting, but...

Getting worked up about someone calling the techniques 'exploiting' is ridiculous. It's true that it is technically exploitation; people are using their own ingenuity to take advantage of the way the game works. It's no different from a whole slew of other things, from using Vanaduke as a personal punchbag (a major crown source) and OHKOing turrets with Driver charges (OP) to shield cancelling (reasonable) and not using the entire combo of a weapon's swings (which is obvious and also reasonable).

One of the features of what I'd consider to be a 'good game' is that ingenuity should be rewarded - if people are intelligent enough to think about how to do things efficiently, then that should be okay, so long as it's not something utterly gamebreaking.
It's also the reason I like this game over a whole bunch of others, and why I wasn't entirely satisfied with the removal of the old shards. They might have been used for gibbing, but then given that Drivers and Needles were left as they currently are, the situation seemed unfair.

OOO know about it existing. It's just they don't consider it enough of a problem to fix it.
(Although given the amount of other stuff that hasn't been fixed, like Iron Slug and Winmillion...)

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 03:41
#18
Poopsie's picture
Poopsie
...

animation cancelling (which done by shielding in this game) is common in action games, by the way.
Just search youtube or google, you'll find thousand of games. People play them with using this so called exploits.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 06:11
#19
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
/laugh

"ummm... being a gunner.. I know it is not an exploit..."
LOL. that's exactly what you SHOULDNT say!

@others
You guys been entertaining. This really should be a podcast. I almost forgot to bring the popcorn.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:55
#20
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
Flamearc, what exactly did

Flamearc, what exactly did you hope to accomplish with that post? I don't think you'll ever bring anyone to your side of an argument by saying that "something is (censored) wrong with them", even if your opponents themselves decide on the inside that you're completely right. Berating people just makes it obvious that you objective is just to make yourself feel important, as opposed to actually finding a resolution within a rather simple conflict.

Even if you were wiser and more literate, pretty much anyone here would realize that the analogies in your post makes very little sense. The premise of the whole anti-gun rolling thing is that you can switch weapons fast enough to go fire continuously with a weapon that should only shoot twice, simply by either equipping it twice or by pairing something similar to it, then shoot/switch/shoot/switch, effectively making a gun that dosen't reload. If you switch swords over and over in the same fasion, you'll have an infinite ammo sword. That's exactly the same as a regular sword.

You don't have to swing all of your swords strikes in a combo, and you don't have to shoot all of the shots in your guns clip. You are completely correct. Though not one person here has stated that you should have to actually shoot all of the shots in your clip, so there was absolutely no reason to point that out. Most people are fine with shooting once then stopping, but you should have to reload after you do so, as if you had shot all your shots. That doesn't mean you always shoot twice on an alchemer, the same way a calibur dosen't have to strike three times. You simply have to reload after you stop pulling the trigger.

Fezor; "Answer is hazy. Ask again later."
Exactaly, in the end OOO just needs to get their shizums togetha' and tell us so we don't have to figure it out ourselves. Perhaps asking about it in the podcast would help, someone should go do that. huhuhuhu~

Aureate; "OOO know about it existing. It's just they don't consider it enough of a problem to fix it."
I don't believe that is accurate. The UI update is a rather big patch, so combined with the pets OOO has been working on, there is a high probability that they missed this while testing and were never be able to decide how important an issue it was, whether it is fair or not. I think this was only recently brought to their attention.

Poopsie; "animation cancelling (which done by shielding in this game) is common in action games, by the way."
Yes, this is ture. I've been playing a korean game where canceling melee animations by simultaneously moving and switching weapons is a popular maneuver. Why do the moderators and developers of this game believe it is fair? Simple; it can't be helped. If I'm whacking someone with my sword, and I see someone come to his rescue, I'm going to immediately dash away and shoot at him so save myself. If I didn't want to exploit, I'd have to wait for the melee animation to end before pressing any keys. How can you do that, would you take your hands off the keyboard and count the seconds in the animation? You can't do that really. The exploit happens accidentally in most situations, so it isn't the players fault and therefore is not cheating.
Kinda like shield canceling. If someone tries to wack me after I miss a sword swipe, I'm going to block. The animation gets canceled when I block, even if I don't want it to, so it's fair. Gun rolling is a bit different. If I decide I need to change the type of gun I'm firing, perhaps to shoot at an enemy with different defenses, the gun roll effect occurs. Though that would be infrequent, and more often than not the reason for switching isn't just to fire a different gun, it's to avoid reloading, a seemingly more abusive motive to change weapons, since guns are supposed to reload. Again though, it will happen accidentally on a few occasions, making the line hazy.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:59
#21
Flamearc's picture
Flamearc
@everyone

SORRY MY BAD

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:59
#22
Flamearc's picture
Flamearc
@everyone

goddang caps locks

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 18:12
#23
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
It's cool dawg, just be sure

It's cool dawg, just be sure to check yourself before you Shrek yourself.

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