Spiral Knights - So about those auctions in the Bazaar

So about those auctions in the Bazaar

28 replies [Last post]

Wed, 05/11/2011 - 21:48

Pawn

I wish people in the Bazaar wouldn't say something was an auction if its not gonna be an auction.

Countless times i've seen someone not get the price they were looking for and be like, i got an in game whisper for this bid, so if i don't get a higher i'm selling it to the anonymous buyer.

Or one today closed at 11 pm and the bidding was low (225 CE) and COINCIDENTALLY somebody started a new profile, joined the forums, and outbid the high bidder (Me, you guessed it) by 1k CE. Yeah, who the hell outbids the high bid by 5x the high bid?

If it's not an auction, don't call it an auction. If you desire a minimum, say there is a minimum bid.

Wed, 05/11/2011 - 23:54

Raspberry

Things you don't see

Yes, people do bid in game and haggle in game. Potential buyers insist that sellers post their IGNs so buyers can haggle in game. If the buyer does not post to forum or chooses to remain anonymous, it's against forum terms of service to disclose private discussions without consent. Do you really want sellers to violate terms of service when they get in game offers and bids?

Most of the game items I have sold are from potential buyers contacting me in game. Should sellers NOT sell to people unless they post to the Bazaar? That's silly. I even have repeat buyers who contact me daily in game to see if I have any new 5* gear they might want or commission me to make.

New players come in game all the time wanting to play with old gaming buddies. They take the shortcut route by buying CE just so they can get to Tier 2 or Tier 3 faster to actually play with their friends and not be a burden. Afterall, buying CE with real money to pay for higher tier gear and recipes is part of the game. In game buying, selling and trading while using the game mechanics as intended, is far better and safer than buying items and accounts from questionable 3rd party sites.

As far as auctions go, I get secret lowball bids in addition to high offers to end auctions NOW in game to suit someone's immediate gotta have this NOW in game. I don't believe it's fair to anyone to change stated auction terms while an auction is running.

If you lost to an anonymous or new player, move on. No need to imply that someone is cheating because a lowball bid lost. Perhaps this high bidder is not a nibbler, and is offering to pay what he perceives as fair market value so that he does not need to nickel and dime an auction to death by raising it a little every time. Some people would rather play the game than spend time watching an auction. If you believe a seller is being dishonest, ignore them. It's not worth your time or CE to force a deal with a dishonest person.

I am pretty sure the majority of buyers and sellers are honorable. Those that slip up lose their reputation fast.

Good luck on future purchases and adventures.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 00:22

RapBreon

Legacy Username

@Jeburk

It's called a reserve price, if that price is not met, the seller won't sell. The reserve does not need to be disclosed to those partaking in the auction.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 02:04

Pawn

Nobody

Nobody raised the bid price from 225 to 1.2k CE, when there was only 2 bids currently and the auction closed in 4 -5 hours. Act like you have some sense.

BTW, saying, hey i'm gonna sell this item to the highest bidder then not selling to the highest bidder is a lie. You can say what you want about reserve prices since you love to be contrarian, but saying you are sell to the highest bidder and then raising the bid artificially is scamming and is also against the terms of service.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 04:01

SirNiko

Legacy Username

Unless the developers set

Unless the developers set rules for how auctions should take place and then enforce them with warnings and bans, this behavior will continue. For now, participation in an "Auction" is at your own risk. With luck the official Auction House will eliminate the need for this.

That said, this "Reserve" price concept is new to me, Rap. When you start an auction it is common courtesy to open with the minimum bid you will accept. It is a phenomenal waste of other players' time to rescind the auction because you did not meet an arbitrary desired price when you could have easily stated that price at the beginning. It is also common courtesy to make in-game offerers post to the auction thread so that other bidders are aware of the bid, have a chance to counter-offer and have some measure of confidence that it isn't the auctioneer rescinding the offer arbitrarily because they didn't get some unspoken minimum price. It is also common courtesy to automatically extend the length of the auction by 5-10 minutes in the event of a valid last-second bid, to prevent bid-sniping.

Be kind. Always start with a minimum bid and be prepared to sell for that minimum bid and no more. Push all offerers to post in the auction thread so that other players have the opportunity to counterbid. Never rescind an auction, ever, if you have received at least one valid bid according to your posted auction rules.

This is not required behavior, but it does make for a much more pleasant bazaar community.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 04:10

Alpha

Agree with jeburk and

Agree with jeburk and SirNeko.

The rest suck.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 06:24

RapBreon

Legacy Username

@SirNeko

Attend a real auction, property auction if possible, the owner has a right to a reserve price, or google it, or youtube a hot property show even, it's a fairly common concept. The lower initial bid is there to spark interest and get the ball rolling, any person on the face of this earth who thinks they'll win an auction on the low-ball minimum bid is kidding themselves and unfamiliar with the workings of an auction.

Alternatively if you which to dispute this with me some more, go forum search "Bazzar etiquette", it mentions reserves and what a starting bid is. You may find it rude and distasteful, but regardless of YOUR PERSONAL values, which is to say, not common courtesy. This is how auctions are conducted, both here and real life. If people opened with the minimum bids they were willing to accept, they might as well sell it, not auction it.

I made it easy, ctrl F, English auction or reserve, read that line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction

Seeing as our auctions follow the English model, there it is.

TL;DR, Auctions are not fixed sales with retailers, they are competitions, subject to change at any moment. Highest bid doesn't mean you've won.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 10:17

Pawn

Ok @rap

Ok i made this thread to discuss a general theme, people making auctions and then not selling their items. If they aren't gonna sell, then they really shouldn't call it an auction IMO. It comes back to what you said previously about words coming to mean certain things in certain situations rap. And in a video game if you don't because you don't like the prices you get, and there was no reserve listed, then how is an auction ANY different from simply WTS? Not really too much different. Also, with real auctions i've NEVER seen an invisible, secret reserve price--only up front stated reserve price. I've seen the auctioneer even state to the bidders that they aren't even to the reserve yet, when trying to bait more bids.

Anyhow, maybe i should have posted this to start with, but here is the OP (from auction thread) posted at bottom--does it change your opinion when he specifically states, all bids on the forum will be honored over in game messages? Isn't that similar to stating there will be no reserve? Tell me you don't still support his behavior!!!! How are you going to twist that?

"Ends on Weds 11pm PST

Please post bids here only. All bids on forum will be honored over in game messages.

Buyout: 15k ce

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 11:01

Mohandar

Existence of a reserve price must be disclosed

A quick search on Google and Wikipedia suggests that if your auction has a reserve price, you are required to state explicitly that you have a reserve price, though the amount need not be disclosed. This is common courtesy and logic- why would any bidder waste time if the seller could simply pull the plug if he were dissatisfied? By stating the existence of a reserve price, the seller is informing bidders that lowballs are not guaranteed to win, and bidders acknowledge that they understand and will abide by the seller's rules.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 15:53

SirNiko

Legacy Username

Hey folks, just for the

Hey folks, just for the record "Niko" is not a misspelling of "Neko". It's really supposed to be "Niko".

Rap, that's an interesting detail I didn't know about auctions. I see the point, that you might snowball the bidding early to get a higher final price. I disagree, however, that the buyer should not expect to get the minimum bid. If a person follows all the written rules of your auction they should fully expect to win if nobody else plays. To lose because of an unspoken rule is highly unfair to the bidder.

If you wish to use reserve prices, I'd highly recommend you state at the beginning of the auction you will be using a reserve price and explain the concept in detail (whether or not you actually disclose the reserve price). Most online auctions (notably E-bay and virtually all online game related auctions) do not use the reserve price concept. If you do anything else you will surely draw the ire of the bidders (as you've observed), not to mention it might draw the attention of moderators. In all game forums I've visited rescinding an auction after you received at least the minimum bid is, at best, subject to a warning and at the worst cause for a ban. Use reserve prices at your own risk.

As I said before, the fact that the moderators have not posted auction guidelines means that this is all just courtesy details you are free to ignore. You would do well to be more up-front about your auction rules in the future to avoid unhappy auction players.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 18:43

#10

pxcasey

Legacy Username

Ebay

Ebay does use the reserve price concept, but I don't think many people use it. Maybe on really big ticket items.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/reserve-price.html

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 18:57

#11

Ninette

E-bay uses reserve price and

E-bay uses reserve price and it get's used plenty, many people just don't know it exists. If an item has a reserve though when you bid it will let you know "reserve not met".

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 19:20

#12

RapBreon

Legacy Username

@Jeburk

I have twisted nothing up until this point. In light of this new information though, I can see how his words were mis-guiding, and I concede this point. But on that note, the buy-out was 15k CE (assuming the buy-out wasn't TO drastic), surely you don't think you were a being a little optimistic to think you'd win with a bid of 225 CE though? FAIRLY or NOT. Regardless of reserves though, you were still out-bid, by a large margin yes, but you were, so why is it a problem?

@PringerX, doesn't look like it's common logic to me. Though a reserve is generally mentioned before-hand or when the bidding reaches the reserve price.

@SirNeko, in real life unless someone is desperate or it's a repossessed property sale you should be playing the realist and not expecting to win something of value with a low-ball bid and in Jeburk's case it's like picking up a $200,000 house for $10,000, it's not going to happen and if you can't see how his hope was misplaced, then you have too much faith in consumerism.

Finally, an auction is an opportunity for the BUYERS more than it is for the sellers, it is a chance to lay claim to a generally UNIQUE piece of property/item, the seller (disregarding extenuating circumstances) is not a retailer and desperate to sell and willing to cater to your every whim, they're trying to find the right people interested in their property so they fetch a good price.

The Bazzar Etiquette thread needs to be stickied.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 20:04

#13

SirNiko

Legacy Username

I do stand corrected on the

I do stand corrected on the issue of reserve costs, but I disagree with your statement that the buyer should not expect to win at a lowball cost when the seller does not indicate a reserve cost exists. To offer something at a low price then rescind it when the low price is met is poor business etiquette.

I stand by my original points -

If you intend to invoke reserve costs in your auction, you most certainly should make this clear in the opening post and explain the concept of reserve costs, as they are not often invoked and many players are unfamiliar with the concept. However, doing so is likely to make bidders hesitant to participate in your auction. Which is why...

I would advise against using reserve costs at all. If your reserve cost turns out to be much higher than what the buyers were willing to pay it makes the entire auction a waste of time for all who were involved and reflects poorly on the auctioneer as a result. My strongly urged advice would be to simply use your reserve cost as the opening bid. Yes, you lose out on the chance to ease the bidding up and have a more intense finale, but in exchange you avoid all the previous mentioned problems with your perceived character as a seller.

The situation where the auctioneer opens low and only receives a low bid being the fault of the bidder is questionable at best. The bidder may have believed the opening bid was indeed a fair price for the item, which is common in a game market where the value of things is unclear (After all, nobody knows truly how rare a rare UV is). It also makes the auctioneer look like a fool as he obviously overestimated the value of his item, but he has invoked a rule that shields him from any risk associated with his mistake.

Suggesting that the buyer should be thankful you gave him the chance to make a bid you never intended to honor is a rather silly notion. You should have stuck to the "Reserve pricing is a common auction rule!" line of debate as it has proven to be a stronger position.

Note: My use of "You" does not imply you are actually guilty of creating the poorly managed auctions in question.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 20:48

#14

Pawn

yeah

It wasn't a real bid.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 20:48

#15

cheeserito

Legacy Username

Jeburk

Stop complaining because things aren't always bending to your will.

If I understand your posts correctly, the auction still had 4-5 hours left on it when you got outbid. I fail to see what's wrong with the auction at that point. In one particular auction I saw, Delcore was outbidding by 10k CE everytime someone tried to outbid him by a small margin. So 1k CE is hardly anything. It wasn't even a snipe, as this was apparently done within 4-5 HOURS of the auction ending, not 4-5 seconds.

And why do you reprimand him for taking in-game bids when you say things like "Nobody raised the bid price from 225 to 1.2k CE, when there was only 2 bids currently and the auction closed in 4 -5 hours. Act like you have some sense." and "Or one today closed at 11 pm and the bidding was low (225 CE) and COINCIDENTALLY somebody started a new profile, joined the forums, and outbid the high bidder (Me, you guessed it) by 1k CE. Yeah, who the hell outbids the high bid by 5x the high bid?" Saying that he takes forum offers as priority is not nearly the same as having "no reserve"! A reserve price is there in the seller's mind to make it so that they know if they actually want to take the highest bid or cancel the auction. Not if they want to bids from different locations.

People will very often outbid by a large margin because they don't want to pay the buyout, but they want to ensure that they get the item.

And you seem to be assuming that this person actually went out of their way to create another account just to smite you. Paranoid much? Do you have any proof that this person created an alt just to piss you off? Because that's what you're implying. :/

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 20:51

#16

Pawn

READ THE POST

READ THE POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or shut up.

The implication is obvious that i'm saying it is immoral if it is a lie.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 21:15

#17

RapBreon

Legacy Username

@Jeburk.

Wait what? It wasn't a real bid? How do you know? Evidence, now.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 21:26

#18

Pawn

original item

owlite shield with a uv med normal defense (i'm pretty sure. i know it was a med something--not pierce).

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 21:26

#19

cheeserito

Legacy Username

Jeburk

READ YOU OWN POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're so mentally challenged, it's not even funny anymore. Did you not see how I directly quoted you? I obviously read your stupid posts. Which is exactly what they are. Stupid. Every single word you say is just dripping with stupidity. Where's your goddamn proof that he created the account just to outbid you so he could keep the item that you wanted for a lowball price? Huh? There is none, you're just defacing someone for no other reason than you couldn't have your way so you just had to whine about it.

Grow up. NOW. Or leave the forums. kthxbai.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 21:31

#20

Deslare

Legacy Username

I don't get what you're

I don't get what you're trying to do here. Auctions aren't run by the game, they cannot be changed by devs. They are run by people, and people can lie.

Seriously, if you got outbid, you got outbid. If it was a fake bid, oh well. Can't prove it. The 15k Buyout price is ridiculous for an Owlite Shield of any UV, clearly the guy isn't a good auctioneer.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 21:36

#21

sl0shie

Legacy Username

If you're going to have a

If you're going to have a reserve, it needs to be stated up front, along with ending time and if there's a buyout.. pretty basic courtesy to interested parties.

Other than that, who cares if it's an in game bid or on the forums? You would really be limiting yourself as a seller if you didn't pursue both avenues.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 21:42

#22

RapBreon

Legacy Username

@Jeburk

Hmmm, 225CE is def's a lowball bid but you COULD'VE won with it, if the auctioneer was true to his word and you weren't outbid, but even then, still a bargain and you shouldn't trust people to be fair when there is no repercussions for acting self-interested. 1 - 1.5k CE is about what someone should expect for a decent UV like that though. 15k is clearly stupid though.

Still if I were in your position, I wouldn't have expected to win under these circumstances, merely considered it a stroke of luck.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 21:52

#23

Mohandar

Not selling on forums and

Not selling on forums and in-game at the same time is a small courtesy to the people poring over the forums, but admittedly it makes little sense not to try and sell on both fronts. A more reasonable approach is to say you will also accept bids in-game via whisper- the forum-goers will have to take your word that you indeed received such a bid, but at least it won't completely blindside them.

@RapBreon- My point about the reserve was exactly that- the seller must mention that a reserve price exists when bidding starts, and all the people who decide it isn't worth their time to play lowball can leave. It is extremely poor etiquette to disclose that you had a reserve price and that it was not reached only as the auction is closing; you've now just wasted all the bidders' time. Perhaps you thought I had stated that the reserve price itself needed to be disclosed at the start?

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 22:02

#24

RapBreon

Legacy Username

@PringerX

Ah yes, my apologies I missed this;

"though the amount need not be disclosed" -pringerX.

I agree with your point. The existence of a reserve should be mentioned. Though anybody low-balling should not be taking their offer so seriously, it's in hopes you get LUCKY, not garuntee a cheap purchase.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 22:57

#25

Pawn

as per most my posts

I wanted to have a discussion, but unfortunately the thread degenerated before one ever materialized. Oh well, just a message board for a video game. I'm one of those people that sometimes forgets how inconsequential these things are.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 23:28

#26

Pawn

@rap

fair enough. I guess i meant less bickering and more constructive discussion.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 23:43

#27

RapBreon

Legacy Username

@Jeburk

Mmm, tones get mis-construed a lot and that devolves into insults and what not, and it becomes heated, it happens, no hard feelings. Regardless of how heated it got, I still think it was constructive all things considered, if you're willing to look passed negativity.

Thu, 05/12/2011 - 23:51

#28

Pawn

Yep

no hard feelings. Not everyone meshes on message boards, i don't take them to be an 'in real life' measure of people. It's kinda dumb to argue (so i shouldn't) since i think in real life if i met most people on the message board we'd bond over liking spiral knights, not fight over differences of opinions in the market, etc.

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So about those auctions in the Bazaar