Spiral Knights - • Critical Hit Chance •

• Critical Hit Chance •

29 replies [Last post]

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 12:52

Ewbte

Hello again knights! Today I was a little bit bored from my weapons, it always do the same damage.. How could my knight always hit in same part of enemy? Hmm.. It would be cool if some of hits could be more powerful than others and maybe with different animation! *KABOOM*

Basics

Critical hit chance depends on attack speed. The higher your attack speed - the less chance of critical hit is.
Fast weapons have a less chance for critical hit.
Slow weapons have a better chance for critical hit.
Bombs too, that means Nitronome and Fuse bombs have a small chance, and bombs like big angry became big and angry :>

Projectiles

Every projectile has its own chance for critical hit and it depends on projectile's own damage. Easy, if one projectile does 10 damage, it will do 20 on critical hit. (autogun line, alchemers lines ricochets, crystal bombs and etc.)
Statuses don't have a critical chance.

Mechanics

Damage will be taken from final values, which means UV's, trinkets and armor/shield bonuses considered too. (That means Ancient set will increase chance of critical hit, and others with positive bonuses will decrease it)
Percentages and other maths are on developers choice. But I think that doubled damage on critical hit is enough, and 10% of critical hit chance is enough for slowest weapons such as troika line, magnus line, big angry bomb.

Misc

Same works for monsters too, that could make game a little bit more interesting :>
As you can understand I provide only main rules which could guarantee some balance.

What do you guys think about it?

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 12:57

Aureate

In that case, I only have one question:
Is my Nova Driver considered 'fast' or 'slow'?
Because if it's the latter, I can see this getting really out of hand with internal ricochets and stuff like that. >.>;

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 13:25

Ewbte

Attack speed bars which we

Attack speed bars which we can see is fake and real mechanics known only by devs..

Just as I said, all numbers on developers choice. Check first post, I've added some info for projectiles.

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 17:17

Shidara

Interesting idea. It makes

Interesting idea. It makes sense that positive bonuses would decrease one's critical hit-ratio as one would be able to strike faster anyway, making it pretty overkill to have the fastest sword in the game dish out critical hits at an alarming pace. It would also give plate armour a bit of a niche feature and something worth considering with this system in mind.

Whether or not I am in favour of it, I don't know. But I will keep an eye on this for potential discussion and fleshing out on the idea.

May I also add that you didn't really answer Aureate's question; whether the Nova Driver is considered 'fast' or 'slow'. OP only suggests that bullets would deal double damage when dealing critical damage, but it says nothing about different ratios for the various guns that we have, specifically how it works for the ricocheting alchemer bullets.

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 18:37

Hexzyle

-1

You're sacrificing balance for realism. This is the same mentality that screwed up Almirian Crusader and Heavenly Iron armor.

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 18:53

Skyguarder

We have bold numbers coming up of our screen if you use something effective against an enemy. For example, using a Warmaster Rocket Hammer against Hexzyle is very effective, so is a polaris. Therefore, his weakness is elemental. With critical hits, Hex would be crying because of the army of hammaws! :O

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 21:42

Klipik-Forum

Hmm

What if it only worked for normal damage weapons?

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 23:27

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Noklip

Actually, I've thought about this as a buff to certain weapons, particularly the Iron Slug and the Shard bombs. (The normal damage ones) This would be a special "status" which would work a little like stun, but instead of stunning it would do double (or maybe 2.5 times) the damage of a normal hit. This would be particularly handy on the Shard bombs because they hit so often that this comes into play often.

Anyway, having it on certain weapons is OP...like...Polaris? Rochet Hammer? (Which is considered a slow weapon, as a matter of fact...look at the speed bar...unless they go by something else.)

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 00:46

Hexzyle

@Skyguarder

Weapon Effectiveness replaces the need for Critical Hits.

Other games have both, but in those, Weapon Effectiveness (piercing/crushing/slashing/magic) isn't nearly as impacting as it is in this one.

If you cut the game engine's Weapon Effectiveness Bonus/Penalties by three-fold, THEN Critical Hits will be useful/balanced.

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 01:17

Ewbte

Answers

@Shidara
The answer was "on developers choice", I only suggest the idea with some base rules.

@Hexzyle
So the critical chances should be really low. And 10% is not much. Let's imagine Triglav, and now imagine that 1 of 10 hits do critical damage.. Not so often, yep? For more balanced work, damage could be increased only for 50%, not doubled.. but again, thats only my thoughts.

@Skyguarder@Autofire
You can find some topics where people talk about attack speed bars, and that it have no links with real speed numbers. For example Sudarsuka has the same attack speed bar as Divine Avanger, but Divine avenger's attack speed = Sudaruska's with ASI Medium. (I don't recall about Grand Faust).

And that's why I left all mechanics for developers.

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 01:56

#10

Hexzyle

@Ewbte

10% is still a considerably high chance for critical hits.
And if you've ever played TF2, you'd know that many people feel kills influenced by crits to be "cheap kills".

If you want changes to the damage numbers, the best way to do it would be damage variance. That is:
damage x (0.9 + (0.2 x random))

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 09:57

#11

Ewbte

@Hexzyle

Maybe you are right about 10%, and again, that was only my thoughts about numbers, it don't pretend to anything.
Not sure about randomised damage..

It is funny to kill from one hit and still funny to die from one hit.

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 18:42

#12

Klipik

It's only funny until you get competitive. Then, it's random and unfair to everyone. Ever wonder why there are no randomly placed, respawning damage boost powerups in LoL, but there are in Mario Kart?

(please don't try to tell me Mario Kart is a competitive game.)

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 23:06

#13

Ewbte

@Klipik

I've accidentally reared some of your posts on this forum.. Klipik, excuse me, but you are boring.

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 23:41

#14

Klipik-Forum

I'm not concerned with being entertaining. :P

But hey... If someone thinks of something fun that isn't gamebreaking... I'm all for it <(^_^)>

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 07:38

#15

Atholl

Nice

This would be a really nice idea to work on , this critical chance can even bring back weapons considered useless (winmillion, iron slug, sudaruska) if they have a little higher chance to trigger the critical.
Oh and also they don't need a X 2.0 miltipler, that would be an overkill, i feel like a good X 1.3 should be enough.

Tue, 04/23/2013 - 05:23

#16

Aureate

Eh. I feel that doubling damage output is too much; many weapons deal enough damage as it is. Adding an extra 50% of damage should be about as much as is needed - beyond that feels like overkill.

Damage randomization would be good, though. At the moment all you have is a fixed damage output per swing type/shot per depth, which is a little dull.

Tue, 04/23/2013 - 22:15

#17

Qwez

I believe there should be more skill involved...

In Dark Souls there is a counter hit system. When a player attacks an enemy that's in an attack animation, the player will deal more damage.

Perhaps let's have it this way:

We'll add this functionality with the reverse being possible, extra damage on player. This would allow for higher damage, but you have play a little cautiously.
-Because enemies have really slow attacks, the counter-hit would not be possible during the wind-up animation. Counter-hits would only be possible when they can damage you. This also applies against players because Triglav, Iron Slug, etc. (imagine if enemies could counter-hit during Triglav charge attack wind-up).

Ex of this counter-hit:
Trojan charging at me, I sidestep and slash it in the back as it passes for counter-hit bonus damage.
Slag Walker is breathing, I shoot it for counter-hit bonus damage.
I am using Plague Needle charge, get smacked for extra damage.
I am using Triglav charge, I am more damaged by that bullet I ran into.

This wouldn't be a prominent change like your RNG damage increase, but it'd use a lot more skill. Well, RNG is nice too, I don't have to think :)

Wed, 04/24/2013 - 12:23

#18

Houndoomwars

@ qwez: Sounds like a great

@ qwez: Sounds like a great idea! It makes sense turrets open their mouths to attack, and attacking in general forces you to drop your guard. Plus, people would think before spamming polaris in LD.

Thu, 04/25/2013 - 00:36

#19

Ewbte

thoughs

@Qwez
@Houndoomwars

If we take a closer look to how gameplay works, system suggested by Qwez will end in random attack spam as it was before, but with almost every time critical hit.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 14:53

#20

Putkinen

-1

One of the things I appreciate about this game is that it isn't tediously random.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:59

#21

Thegreatpiggy

Suggestion

If there is a critical hit chance, then there should be a rare variant in which the critical chance is higher.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:40

#22

Geosmin

+1 to Atholl's suggestion to

+1 to Atholl's suggestion to add crit chance without base damage penalty or other cost, in order to buff some weapons that seem in need of a bit of buffing.

@ Hex: I didn't get an impression that it was about "realism," but rather just something that Ewbte thought would be fun. Key terms: "would be cool if," and "could make game more interesting." I'm gonna assume that "As you can understand I provide only main rules which could guarantee some balance." was added to the post in response to yours. :)

Back on-topic, my first thought was that I'd not like a global mechanism adding more chaos to weapon behaviour. I greatly enjoy the chaotic nature of my Volt Driver, but as far as that chaos goes I only like it for the contrast it offers against more reliable and predictable weapons like the Pepperbox I like to use it with. Personally, I prefer a wide dynamic range of options from reliable to chaotic, but if the range has to be narrow I strongly prefer that it be strongly on the reliable side; if I had to choose one Pierce bomb it's gotta be the Snarble Bomb, but if I get a second option I very much welcome the Piercing Shard Bomb with Stun, to the extent I'm probably going to upgrade the unpredictable one first since I already have other Pierce weapons for my more practical needs.

I think the way I'd most like to see crit chance implemented, then, is something kinda like Punch's and Bechamel's gear-modifying services, where you pay some crowns to trade a bit of base damage for a chance to inflict bonus damage.

My second thought was that the worst way to implement it, IMO, would be as a new, non-optional base mechanic applied to everything whether you happen to like it or not. The most likely way it might be implemented, IMO, is as a piece of gear that is totally optional and adds the mechanic to all equipped weapons, but does not allow me to mismatch like I enjoy doing by using an Alchemer or Shard bomb with a more "vanilla" but reliable weapon.

I don't like the idea of tying it to hit size, either; pairing up a big, slow, heavy-hitter with a faster, more agile weapon that shows up in a lot of games, and methinks it's for good reason. I think that aspect of the contrast between the Jelly swords and Jelly guns is a rather "basic" part of gameplay, so we shouldn't tie it to a chaos-to-predictability axis that many players might want to stick to only one side of, whichever side it might be. I do like the idea of a crit chance mechanic, just not as something we all are forced to use or as something that's tied to speed of the weapon.

More generally related to this thread, I agree in that I'd like to see more [optional!] chaotic things to add a bit of spice to the game; moar of the Sealed Sword's unpredictable status infliction, Shard Bomb sumunitions' fuses, etc. etc.
-maybe even a random-rolled damage type to go with the status effect. :D

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:35

#23

Hexzyle

@Geosmin

That first post I made about the suggestion making the game more "realistic" was in response to Ewbte's "How could my knight always hit in same part of enemy?" statement.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 21:37

#24

Geosmin

To me, that particular phrase

To me, that particular phrase actually suggested moving away from realism, though that can vary by setting (Fallout's VATS system and similar futurisms it's based on) and I think I can see what you meant.

Whether locational damage can be used to focus on one location to get faster results or just add some chaos to the game depends on how the whole targeting gameplay works, and "realism" can go many different ways depending on setting, but talking about crit hits with chances to inflict made me think that such a crit mechanic as described was what we're talking about, with locational damage being mentioned as an illustrative fictional explanation rather than the actual subject of discussion, especially considering how SK plays.

Having thought about crits a bit, I think the simplest implementation I would like, at least in terms of change from the current state of SK, is to add that mechanic to some or all status-inflicting effects that also include any damage. My reasoning is, any one who's already invested much into a status-inflicting weapon is probably okay with the extra unpredictability, so that seems the safest place to add crit damage effects. _MAAAYYYBE_ tie the size and chance of the crit bonus damage to the intensity and chance of the status infliction. Now that I've just thought of it, I'd like to see at least one weapon that always inflicts either status effect or crit bonus damage, never neither and never both on a particular hit...

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 04:49

#25

Ewbte

Answers

@Thegreatpiggy
Actually no, it should be sticked with attack speed. Or balance will be destroyed.

@Geosmin
I wouldn't like to see it as a bonus from punch, because rich players will have advantage. It will make LD matches unfair.

@Hexzyle@Geosmin
Woah guys, slow down. This game doesn't need such a heavy things like "vats" or any "realism". It's an action game, everything should be easy and fun. And the more pretty-pretties players see while play, the more good mood they gain.

The numbers I suggested are just wind. Critical chance could be as small as 1%, but still it will bring some fun when critical hit will appear.
Please don't think about it like it is another option for total pwnage.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 06:15

#26

Geosmin

Thanks for reminding me about

Thanks for reminding me about PvP, I have a tendency to forget about it.

I only mentioned VATS as an example of how targeting of a specific location could be considered a movement toward realism rather than away from realism. I also said that I interpreted bringing up the whole concept of locational damage as a fiction explanation, as opposed to something actually modeled by gameplay mechanics, since the very post in which it was first brought up then went on to describe mechanics in terms of chance to inflict "critical hit" rather than any sort of actual locational damage gameplay mechanism. ...and also because such subtarget stuff would be really hard to fit into SK's gameplay.

I read that the second fuse on the Shard Bomb types has a variable length, apparently random, which my limited experience had so far allowed me to mistake for a consequence of my network jitter and super-crappy sense of time. It seems like an interesting way to add some chaos, so I endorse the idea of using that on whichever weapons one might want to make more chaotic. My favourite by far has to be the Sealed Sword's unique status infliction ability, though.

How about crit hits doing knockdown instead of just extra damage? I'm not talking about knockBACK or the Stun status effect, but rather that effect which makes the Spinecone and Magnus fun to combine with other weapons and usually welcome in parties with swordies because it serves monsters up for wailing on.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 06:42

#27

Hexzyle

@Ewbte "Woah guys, slow

@Ewbte
"Woah guys, slow down"

Because we're certainly writing so much stuff at eachother that it's turning into an online slapfight, isn't it. =]

@Geosmin
"I read that the second fuse on the Shard Bomb types has a variable length, apparently random"

It isn't. Unless very slightly, but I highly doubt that. The developers were very uniform when they programmed the mechanics of like, every weapon, monster and digit. I'll ask one of the Shard Squadians later to confirm.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 09:20

#28

Geosmin

/slap

I'm pretty sure you're right and it's all on my side, then, (technical issues and/or my poor sense for time) since I have a jittery network connection and you're much more involved in researching Shard Bombs than I am. If there were anything there to notice, you'd have noticed it by now. Also, I only _suspect_ it might be fun to add chaos that way, but not for me personally, as it's not my cup of tea.

If it looked like crits and/or any other extra-chaotic mechanic were likely to be implemented, I'd be really worried about it being hard to avoid using. I like to have nice, predictable weapons available if possible; I enjoy the Volt Driver for example because I find it fun, but when I'm not confident in what I'm doing I equip my bland-but-trusty Blaster or something totes overpowered like the Normal Pulsegun. Often, I find the bland option less boring/more fun than the overpowered one.

/e thinks trout are adorable

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 11:58

#29

Ewbte

@Geosmin
Knockdown is already exists

@Hexzyle
yes it is :3

Player can do critical hit, monster can do critical hit. Since every weapon and every monster has its own attack speed, everyone will have a fair chance for it. Why this shouldn't work and bring fun? I want reasonable arguments.

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• Critical Hit Chance •