Spiral Knights - Incentive: Restructure the Weapon- and Armor-System

Incentive: Restructure the Weapon- and Armor-System

12 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 08:48

Bugtester

Lately there have been many threads asking for increased difficulty, new content and overall things to make this game worth playing. What I found to be quite lacking was the way to do so. Most attempts would only help on a short notice, others would in turn simply not work.

An example:
Simply increasing the difficulty would help little to appease the audience without adding new content. First of, the transgression from T2 to T3 is already hard for new players, throwing more bricks in their way won't help make them more intrested in the game. Raising the difficulty of T1 and 2 would help them enjoy the game for longer, but leave the bored endgame players anfazed. Which is one of the reasons why no one really cares about the new monsters. What would be needed would be a higher difficulty beyond T3.
Just adding new and difficult content however doesn't help either, as the danger missions and Shadow Lairs have shown. Why is that? Two factor: Availability and incentives.
Both, SL and DM are not easily accessable. The first has the beyond "near-stupid" price of 1800 CE, the second has one mission a day. Both have a very high (at times fake) difficulty. In contrast to that there are the rewards, which are meager to say the least.
The payout of danger missions is not worth nearly the trouble of learning to cope with the levels. Dieing, paying hard earned CE to revive hampers the "fun" that any challenge would provide. Also, prestige my ***.
What about Shadow Lairs then? It's a joke - and a bad one at that. Shadow Lairs stand as the most difficult content of the game, and as such require a lot of trial and error. Unfortunatly, trial and error is expensive. And you know what's also expensive? The rewards. You don't just need the 1800 CE for entering, but also another 800 for one piece of armor. Which is also all you can make without having bought materials on the AH. So are they worth it? Are they? What do you say Almirian Crusader Armor? No, they aren't. Mostly. At least not in comparison to what you have to do to get them.

This of course only applies to the normal players. That is, everyone that doesn't run around in Proto Armor. I think they like at least the Danger Missions, but I have yet to meet one of those ingame. Who knows? I don't.

With all that aside, I guess I should get to the point where I start talking about what I suggest to do. Which is what I will do now. Right here. At this very point.
What was I going on about...?
Yes, restructuring. So what I'd suggest would be a complete overhaul of the system regarding weapons and armors. But you knew that, it's the titel after all.
To give you the gist of it: I want more everything. Sure, more new items would be nice. Of course, balancing them would be awesome. Yet, it would not offer the same incentive like getting better stuff. Did I say better stuff? Damn, know everyone will hate me, because I want to make the game easier! D:
Joke aside, it would, at some point, make the game easier. Which is the very nature of better equipment and why you want it. The trick is, making the way there harder. So now, before you start to fling your poo at me like some rabid monkeys, hear me out: What do all big MMOs have in common when it comes to weapons? You get them a dime a dozen everywhere, but the good ones always require a certain amount of work. May it be the five-headed Dragon at the end of a raid, or the tedious crafting quest to unite all the splinters of a staff, you have to invest time and energy, offer skill and patience.

And what does Spiral Knights do in that regard? Nothing. You can get a 5 Star weapon without having completed T1 - if you are completly hollow inside, content with killing myriads of little critters to amass the money to build it.
THIS is the very problem of the game. Where FoV would be one of the strongest weapons in any other game, it is a rather lackluster one in Spiral Knights. There are no accomplishments. You get no big badge of "damn ya did fine back there, bro".
Now you may argue that this is what the SL stuff is for - where I would tell you that there is a fine, but important difference. Shadow Lair equipment is less "I'm so hard, yo" and more "I'm so rich, yo". You can essentially buy your way to the end of the SL - to a certain degree it is even necessary.

I still haven't talked about what I want to do, have I?
Ok, now: I want more of everything. Hm, this sounds familiar... Well, whatever. After all I have said now, I want to introduce you to a more widespread upgrading system. A far more rewarding system, if I may say so. Let's break it down:

Heat stays the same
Materials stay the same
Effects stay the same
Most recipes disappear from the shop
Monsters drop certain recipies

Until here, nothing too special. So what's the big deal? I shouldn't need such a wall of text just to say that we should get rid of the recipes at the HoH.
And actually, I don't. Because that's just part of it. The big deal is coming about now:
Splitting the trees. Doesn't make any sense, but I wanted to make it catchy. What I mean is, we take every item and give it a second branch. I am not talking about a "new" branch, but a second. The difference here is, that the second branch is weaker. A lot so, in fact. Now, why would anyone want the second branch? "Want" is the wrong word. No one wants it, but everyone needs it.

The second branch is a weaker version of the first branch, for example, when the Silversix branches into the Argent Peacemaker at heat level 10, it would branch into the "Silvery Knight" or something at heat level 5 instead. Here the new tree. It would be little more than a different model and a tad weaker, but a lot more accessable. You see, the recipe for the 1st rate branch would be a lot rarer and only drop on certain monsters and bosses. Sometimes you simply don't have the choice but to craft the weaker one, especially when just getting started.
There is a problem with this however: We need more "room" to let you feel the difference. Right now the Antiqua, the Silversix and the Agrent Peacemaker are, at Stratum 6, 70 damage points apart from one another (30, 100 and 170 respectively). The second branch would the be noticeably weaker with a difference of 50 damage points - for the first 80, for the second upgrade 130. It would set them apart without making them entirely unplayable, through I would lower monster health in general a bit, to make the last upgrade of the first branch even more coveted. Before you start shouting give me a moment to explain why they should be a real reward:

Twice the necessary materials compared to the second branch
Untradeable 5* materials
Recipe is a a rare random drop from special monsters
Recipe is tradeable but one time use (considered a material)
First branch items can not be unbound

So what would this achive? It would be the greatest incentive this game could get with minimal changes, without a need for great changes. By now we have seen that new content in terms of levels doesn't help. We have seen that new monsters alone don't help either. Here, we would bypass all balancing all AI issues, all enviromental issues, hell, even creativity would be optional. Just slap some colour changes on the second branch and everyone is happy. Best thing is: The first branch would be far stronger than the second, the second is however still playable, even if just barely - so you could actually go and get whatever weapon you wanted and still be rewarded with something of the best. And it would be legitimate, because you invested a lot more time into it.

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 08:48

Bugtester

Reserved

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 23:50

Thinslayer

Cool concept!

I like the concept. I was thinking, though, that we could further improve the system by changing how the equips are obtained and crafted.

*We could make people guess at the recipes like in Minecraft, instead of having the recipes spoon-fed to them. It would definitely make the crafting itself more interesting.
*Assign some equips to drop from certain enemies. Jelly armor only drops from jelly cubes, kat hats only drop from kats, Sealed Swords only drop from zombies, and so forth.
*Change the acquisition method between equips. The vortex bombs can only be obtained by collecting a rare "artifact" in some places around the Clockworks; the Sealed Swords must be "unsealed" before they can be used in crafting; and such like.

My ideas are rather complicated, though. Yours are simpler, if perhaps a bit unrealistic, what with enemies dropping recipes and all.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 00:29

Troupe-Forums

Dear God...

Recipe is a a rare random drop from special monsters
Don't turn the entire game into a Katastrophe, please.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 01:05

Pyromoon

the problem i see with the

the problem i see with the current system of crafting is that the super rare recipes are behind locked gates (shadow dungeons) that require a key (a very expensive one) that cost about 1300 CE... In my opinion the game is already a "katastrophe" just its not apparent enough for anyone to really notice yet.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 01:34

Feline-Grenadier

Umm...

You just found a way to kill the already-bad player economy.

By making monsters all the more valuable, you promote even more grinding in the game for recipes. Should recipes behave like normal materials, everyone will want to grind...solo. Or with alts.

By not being able to trade certain materials, the already beaten AH will pretty much gut itself out. The high-end mats in the AH are more popular than you think.

Weapon outcomes based on heat are useless. When one is grinding for crowns and mats, heat is not a concern; you'd simply hit level 10 heat while working for the crowns and boss tokens. Thus, you'd probably be getting a heat 10 weapon before even reaching the target CE & crowns.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 05:40

Bugtester

Concerning: Katastrophe
I didn't expect it to be understood as a "Katastrophe"-Event system. With "special monsters" I simply mean "certain types" - to stick with the Argent Peacemaker example, only Lumbers would drop the recipe. Hence, yes, you have to hunt a certain type of monster, but the monster itself is not random.

Concerning: Grinding
It's an MMO, what do you expect? Also, what are you doing right now, if not grinding FSC? Let me rephrase your statement:
"By making [different] monsters all the more valuable, you promote even more grinding [of different areas] in the game for recipes. Should recipes behave like normal materials, everyone will want to grind...solo. Or with alts. [Which is what we are already doing but hey, I like complaining.]"
Yes, I want you to grind - The Clockwork. I know, I am a monster. Also, you could endorse teamplay by adjusting the droprates and difficulty rates. The drop rate is 2% alone? Make it 8% in a group of 4. And if you want to run around with four alts, really who cares? Sure it's meant to be a social game, but as I said, the second branch weapons - which you will most likely have to use before farming for the first branch - are so much weaker, that you probably don't want 4-Person difficulty when playing alone. And if you manage? Kudos, you've earned it. At least this way would give an incentive to group up. Right now you are only encouraged to go alone.

Concerning: Trading
You won't be able to trade 5* Mats and the weapons themselfs. The recipes however ARE tradeable. And yes, 5* Mats are popular, but every other game manages an economy with rare mats that are untradable, why not this one? We still have costumes, UV and accessories.

Through if heat is a concern - let's say, when rates are halved - then what? It would also give more value to the heat amplifiers.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 10:53

Dream-Harmonics

"Most attempts would only

"Most attempts would only help on a short notice, others would in turn simply not work." - How do you know? How you can claim that most things wouldn't work or would be short term solutions? I just felt a sense of arrogance coming from that statement, I apologize if that's not what you meant or intended but I've been subjected to a good number of experiences over the 2 years and have a pretty good idea of the things that "wouldn't work".

Firstly however, I agree. You /generally/ can't please everyone and Three Rings have to go with their sense of the majority which sucks when the current minority used to be the majority of their target demographic. I can't speak much for Shadow Lairs because I've only done a few and I can't speak for Danger Missions at all because I've never done a Danger Mission to date, but I didn't bother with Shadow Lairs because re-texuted existing content with defence/status changes is not "new" content.

"Joke aside, it would, at some point, make the game easier. Which is the very nature of better equipment and why you want it. The trick is, making the way there harder" Make the game easier? Please no. Spiral Knights is already aimed at a much younger audience than that of it's original demographic so making the game easier is only going to bore veterans to tears as well as drive them away and turn Spiral Knights into more of something that it's not.

Heat stays the same - No problem
Materials stay the same - No problem
Effects stay the same - No problem
Most recipes disappear from the shop - I think while the idea of making recipes more scarce would increase the price/value and bring back the value of most Cobalt/Calibur/Blaster recipes instead of them being simply "given" to you along with a few other recipe lines/series, it would introduce "recipe grinding". I do think the removal of HoH would revive the arcade to a certain extent and would balance recipe prices/value and get the core of the game jump started since Spiral Knights was originally intended to be an arcade-style game, but to fully revive the arcade much more needs to be done.
Monsters drop certain recipes - Not sure what to think about this. If up to 3* recipes were still relatively easily accessible then I think doing two things may balance it out.

1.) Ramp up the rarity of 4* and 5* recipes as well as decreasing the drop rates of 4* and 5* recipes to make them a "Oh man! I got a 4*/5* recipe from this mob drop" instead of, a "Oh man, I've got to get that recipe now... /sigh"
2.) However it may be done, with an energetic revival of the arcade, I think the chance of getting decent 4* and 5* recipes from Basil would complement monster recipe drops nicely.

While I like the "second branch" idea, it would introduce a more complex web of weapons and armour that have slight variations for the sake of accessibility/availability and that's waht 2*/3* gear is for. Like you said, if you slap a different colour or texture on an existing weapon it just takes away from the whole series and story behind it, it literally becomes a pre-existing weapon/armour series with another branch slapped on the side. I think the existing weapons and armour sets need to be balanced FIRST so that Three Rings can sort out everything they have in the game already instead of introducing more stuff to patch over problems that need to be sorted internally rather than taking time to create and add external additional content when they can simply tweak and balance stuff that's already there making the next balance patch quick-to-release and easier to build upon because everything has been balanced prior to the addition of new layers of content. There's a lot of gear that is really underused because it's been rendered obsolete over time or severely underused because of how unbalanced it is compared to the more popular options. I think it's better to really polish and refine this game as it stands and then start adding new stuff rather than having an odd mixture of "popular" gear, unbalanced/underused gear and then this sort of isolated category that has been added for it's own sake of padding out the gaps that remain.

We don't really need a second branch though, I think a tweaking of "popular" gear IF it needs tweaking would suffice, then re-balancing the underused gear to come next which would provide a wider range of viable "paths" and playstyles making combat more interesting and diverse, but personally I don't think we need the addition of a category that exists to act as a a sort of 3.5* bracket that doesn't really need to be there if the existing gear was properly balanced in the first place.

This is what I ultimately think thoough; Spiral Knights is a unique arcade-style MMO with a specific target demographic that was established in the beta/preview phase. This game isn't MEANT to be easy, it isn't MEANT to be a breeze, it's aimed at the people who enjoy a challenge and want to be rewarded for their efforts but don't drop the game at the first hint of difficulty. Sure there's difference between smashing your head against a brick wall and challenging gameplay, but the people who aren't accustomed to Spiral Knights and often define the gameplay as "too hard" or "grindfest" are the ones who are used to playing games that give you an easier time. The thing is, over time, SEGA has influenced Three Rings and ultimately made them loose their original target demographic and taken on this arcade-casual hybrid that is just horrible and doesn't work.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:25

Klipik

Razor, <em> and </em> for italics :)

The lesser alchemy paths are an interesting idea, but in reality with the recipient system you have the game will be ruled by people with elevator passes and hundreds of thousands of CE. It's like lockdown before heart trinkets, certain rich guilds dominated over everyone else because they ground enough love puppies to get true love lockets for everyone. Same thing for this- the game would be dominated by rich guilds and people who had the extra cash to spend on elevator passes and the extra time to grind out the recipes. It's like the badly executed katastrophe, only not made any better and made permanent. The drop rates would either be extraordinarily low, to compensate for the increased number of monsters (not just black kats) or too high, and everyone would just get 5* recipes plonked in their lap every run of whatever level they took.

And what would happen with all the gear we have now? Would all new players be eternally disadvantaged because we (the vets) keep the overpowered weapons and they have virtually no chance of getting them? The system we had before missions (and still have now even though mostly no one uses it) with basil works fine, especially if you remove most recipes from HoH. If the HoH had only, say, cobalt line and the defensive lines (jelly,skelly,magic) it would achieve basically the same thing, only less drastically and with less economy- and player-balance- ruining results. You could get some standard gear easily, but to really get anything special you’d have to go delving.

Every other MMO survives with untradeable high-level mats? How many of them have a CE-to-crowns economy to balance as well, and as few pieces of gear (and mats) as SK has?

And you can’t say everyone is grinding solo anyway. I know I like running with PUGs, and other people must too, since I keep finding them.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:46

Bugtester

Numbers are paragraphs I'm referring to:

1. "but I've been subjected to a good number of experiences over the 2 years and have a pretty good idea of the things that "wouldn't work". "
How does my statement sound more arrogant to you than that? xD
Be it as it is, I went to the length of giving two examples, DM and SL, where one of the more often called for additions, new and difficult content, didn't bring the change people hoped for. Especially difficulty is asked for in every second post, yet people don't see, that difficulty alone does not hold the incentive to keep them playing. They want to be rewarded for their efforts.

2. "I can't speak much for Shadow Lairs because I've only done a few and I can't speak for Danger Missions at all because I've never done a Danger Mission to date, but I didn't bother with Shadow Lairs because re-texuted existing content with defence/status changes is not "new" content."
- Thank you for supporting my point. No sarcasm intended, I really mean it.

3. I really hoped I could convey it just like that, but I'll elaborate further:
Right now we have a Argent Peacemaker with a 170 damage points to a neutral target. The second branch 5* gun would be 130 points. The AP here is however supposed to be the pinacle of sweat, tears and blood. You are NOT supposed to get it, you put it quite nicely with
"1.) Ramp up the rarity of 4* and 5* recipes as well as decreasing the drop rates of 4* and 5* recipes to make them a "Oh man! I got a 4*/5* recipe from this mob drop" instead of, a "Oh man, I've got to get that recipe now... /sigh"".
hence it's fine if it is OP. The difficulty however should reflect on that:
When the AP is super sexy luxory, then the second branch 5* gun would alread be 30% weaker than what you are using at the moment. 30% is a s***load. And you'd have to play with only weapons that are about +30% weaker than what you use now. So when I am saying "make the game easier" I am talking about nerfing the life of monsters by about 10%. Which yould still be make you weaker than you are now, but without breaking your neck.

4.+5. It's not really meant as a revive for the arcade, but integrating the arcade into the gameplay. Right now you have no reason whatsoever - with recipes for the rare "legendary" first branch weapons you have something to do with your time. At some point you just don't need or want the normal ones but aim for grinding apart from FSC.

6. The good thing is, this whole idea lays a strong emphasis on needing no balance. You are basically taking what we have now and nerf it, using those leftovers as the new standard weapons. Whatever balance would be applied to one part of the tree, would be applied to the tree as a whole, as it is in fact, the same weapon as before. For example - we say the Callahan is to slow and the balancing would be speeding it up. The same balancing would apply to it's second branch, as it is the same weapon... just weaker.

7. It's not a 3.5 bracket but a full on 5 bracket. The good ones would however up that to 6. I can not lay enough stress on the fact that the second branch is not a temporary solution but the endgame arsenal. The first branch would be the Naxxramas of Vanilla WoW. You don't simply run around with T3 in vanilla, but with the normal footsoldier equipment. I am at no moment talking about making some sloppy second rate weapons - what I want is making the game harder for everyone with the chance of rewarding obsessive fanatism. Thsi rewards in turn would make the game a lot easier. But as I said the WAY there would be what matters.

8. WoW Vanilla was also meant for the dedicated few, but T3 still made the game a lot easier. It's the reward for having mastered it. "You did all you could, here, show this to you friends, so everyone knows that you have absolutly no life whatsoever."

I hope I could convey the idea that this is not a simple "make the game easier" or "give moar wepnz", but a possibilty to create a way to introduce a challenging endgame content.

EDIT: I honestly don't understand people like Klipik that come up with economy where it plays no role. Especially if every other game manages to have endgame content without being in such dire trouble as SK. First of, Lockdown IS already unbalanced, so who cares. Lockdown needs an overhaul, there is little saving it - especially if PvE is supposed to work. - But that is known -
Tell me, what is the problem with untradeable high level mats if they are untradable? The are outside of CE and CR, as you can not buy them. Also, I fail to see how those big bad guilds could dominante the small players? Since when is Spiral Knights a "PvP first" game? it was originally PvE, it's an Arcade Style game, which is by nature PvE, so how can some guild keep me from having fun at the clockwork?
Grinding solo or not, look around the forums, ask in haven, I don't care. Fact is, playing alone is rewarded, other players hinder you.
Yeah current weapons... would become second branch. People wouldn't like it who spent hundreds in UVs, but I guess there could be some work around for that. There are other things at hand to consider but such a specific problem.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:12

#10

Troupe-Forums

So not only would the game become an even bigger grindfest than it is now, every single piece of 4*/5* gear in existence would be nerfed and players would be forced to grind for days to be able to get the gear they had back?

All that would do is drive away even more veteran players - they'd see it as a massive 'f*** you' from OOO. Besides, you mentioned that most other MMOs do this - why does spiral knights need to be like other MMOs? What's wrong with it being unique?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:36

#11

Shidara

Okay, so let me see if I got

Okay, so let me see if I got this right first...

The idea is that every weapon branches into an alternate line that is identical but weaker than the original line, and that these alternate lines would now occupy the recipes found with Basil/Hall of Heroes. (Or does your idea suggest the removal of the Hall of Heroes? Either way;)
The original line recipes are now found by defeating certain mobs as part of their drop table and will lead to the weapons we now know and love.
The alternate line branching starts when upgrading from ★★★☆☆ to ★★★★☆.
The ★★★★☆ only requires heat level 5 to upgrade to ★★★★★. (Does this mean that you do not need a heat level for the alternate ★★★★☆ item or does it remain the same?)
★★★★★ materials become untradeable.
Monsters have their health decreased by 10%.

Is that everything? I'd rather not give feedback to an idea that I don't fully understand. Maybe I'm just tired right now, but piecing it together from your rant made it rather difficult. For future reference, when making a suggestion don't have a massive rant in your opening post. Less than half the OP actually contains your ideas and explanations for how they would work. It is much larger than it needs to be and makes it tedious to read through. If you need a prologue, keep it short and relevant to your point so that you can better explain why your idea could work.

Rant over.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 16:29

#12

Klipik

Agreed with Troupe. Why does SK have to be like "other MMOs"? It''s always tried to be unique (except with the new UI) and that's why some of these systems just don't fit with the style of the game.

EDIT: And except the missions.

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Incentive: Restructure the Weapon- and Armor-System