I'm certain this doesn't mean that the old RSS wasn't close enough to real life bombs, but that it wasn't close enough to Nick and the devs' image of what they wanted bombs to be.
Just wanted to throw this out there because it frustrates me, seeing this over and over.
I'm not claiming it isn't a stupid thing to say, I'm saying this because people keep misinterpreting it because they want more things to pick apart because of how bad the change was.
I'm not late to the discussion; I was here way before the update hit, and I made my own comments then too. I'm just trying to clear up a possible misconception.
I've heard that that was a misunderstanding, and because it was actually being used to OHKO enemies. Which makes a lot of sense, considering that the closer you are to an explosion, the more damage it should do. Right?
RSS was a weapon designed to be used for range and area of effect capabilities, yet was used to OHKO enemies. It was deemed to powerful and therefore removed.
Now, is there anything else that I can think of that functions like that in this game? Yes.
ALCHEMERS.
Alchemers, a ranged weapon that later gains bouncing bullets for AoE capabilities. Think about it, why are alchemers deemed superior to the antiguas? Because, like RSS, it has a mechanic that can be used to deal massive damage to lone enemies. And an alchemers charge is more powerful than RSS, because it can ohko TWO enemies with it's charge attack.
Balanced, yes?
If we are gonna enter into an OHKO discussion, don't forget to mention the blitz needle and it's screwed up charge that can even be used into a somewhat effective way against constructs and jellies.
This is still a relevant discussion because the old shard bombs are still gone without an adequately explained reason and the current ones are still buggy and carrying arbitrary restrictions no other similar weapons have.
I know that even when I gave up hoping that the devs would do something about it there were still people discussing and hoping for something to come out of it and I actually admire them for their perseverance (you included between those I refer, if I'm not mistaken). But the point is that RSS' discussions are almost non-existent right now, so he's actually pretty late to complain about people picking on the "RSS not being bomb-like enough" as if it was common (at least on the general discussion, I don't follow the other forum sections).
In my opinion, the bombs would gain a lot more utility if the shards stuck into the enemies they hit before exploding and had no knock-back. Kind-of like the needlers from halo.
Returning invincibility frames to LD was fine, it was a bug and, although I wish they had implemented a constant vulnerability, I can live with LD being as unbalanced as it currently is.
The new UI is fine. Sure, I hate not seeing my crowns and mist at all times and am no longer playing as much because it starts to give me a headache but I can still live with it. I don't like it, but it's not game breaking.
RSS was my favorite weapon in the entire game. Of course, I can still kill most anything with one hit. (Thank you, Alchemers and Blitz.) and of course, I can still use the current shard bombs to do what I would use RSS for (Like killing RT, sniping turrets, supporting my team in LD, etc) but the game is still so much less fun now. I barely bomb anymore because it feels hollow without my bread and butter.
Also, +1 to Bulby's idea.
I've noticed more threads popping up recently after the boston marathon... poor taste.
OOO has decided that bombers don't deserve any DPS, they can't have burst damage, and are only useful as utilities to make other weapons and tactics more effective. So essentially AoE status vials, with a black-hole-effect thrown in for 2 and knockback for some. I mean they do damage, but apparently they aren't worthy of being true weapons like guns and swords. So they were bomb-like, but they did not fit OOO's intent of utility over damage
Dark Retribution's DPS is so high that no sword combo can compete with it.
tell that to mini-jellies :P also, it greatly depends on where the enemy is.
lets say you go on a RJP run
each orb set orbits at the same speed, if any enemy is at the edge, it will only get hit by 2 of the four orbs a maximum of 6 times taken from watching a youtube demo and watching the hits at the intersection/# of cycles). counting the initial explosion, that means 13*30 ([2*6 +1]*max damage against slime/grem in stratum 4), or 390 damage. the 6 cycles take a little over 4 seconds by my stopwatch, which I will round down due to human error. so 390/4 is 97.5 DPS without any damage boosts
Compare that to acheron (without any asi or damage bonus). 31 full acheron combos per minute (from Lancer Knightz data) means a combo every 1.9355 seconds. Taking the minimum damage against slime/grem in s4, you get 123+123+156, or 402 damage. 402/(30/61)= 207.7 DPS
So in this example, even if you were to place the enemy in the center to where it was impacted by all 4 orbs for all 6 cycles (making it [2*12+1]*30) it still trails the sword by about 20 DPS. And that is the only bomb that comes even remotely close to the swords. If I have made an error, please correct me
What were the old Radiant Sun Shards like? Were they like the dark Snarby bomb or something?
I guess you could say that...
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Byas is biased.
Yeaaaaahhh
Along with everybody. *clears throat*
I deal 60 to 80 dmg per orb on Jellies and I can pretty much kill anything that isn't shadow resistant with Dark Retribution in Max DMG CTR Max (Mad bomber here)...
And you can hit 8 to 10 times... Plus it doesn't stop there, it hit whatever it's around... Repeatedly...
In an arena the Dark Retribution DPS is really hard to compete against... Specially in RJP... It just has an insane amount of DPS... The only thing that I really see competing against and something I use is the Combuster or Acheron in DMG max and CTR VH+ (skolver set + BTS)
I did some arcade speed-run because I need the Neutralizer recipe and only resolved to my DR for DPS in arenas and my Nitronome to clear up the way
Bombs are CC/DoT or burst dmg type... the only main constant dps is the DR... Elementals are CC/DoT, Blast is burst and DR is DPS... not fond of shard bomb here, got none
I was assuming the frames didn't allow the orbs to hit the enemy multiple times on the same cycle. Let's take your count of 8-10 and make adjustments, with some notes
A) you can't hit 60 damage in stratum 4 to begin with. applying the extra damage percentage for bombs as documented here you would be hitting 44 damage (rounded up) with the 30*1.45x (roughly)
B) I had been ignoring any sort of bonuses, because bombs get the short end there. I will now take into account my set's bonuses: damage max, asi max (skolver cap +coat, BTS, asi vh acheron, ctr vh triglav, asi trinket)
*Tier 2, Stratum 4 only*
revised calculated DPS:
DR:
8-10 hits*4 orbs +1 explosion= 33-41 hits*44 damage= 1452-1804 damage/4= 363-451 DPS
Acheron:
damage from max damage is approximately 1.42x >>> about 571 per combo
combos per minute increased to 39 from asi max
571*(39/60)= 371.1 DPS at beginning, 387.7 at end, 379.4 avg DPS
so at 8 it is about as close, 10 significantly higher. huh. if zeddy could confirm how many strikes it is capable of (since I assume he uses it) I guess there is one "abomination" bomb like the blitz for guns
though I am curious how the combo dps compares to the charge for acheron
If you wait for your DR to fully end before planting your next one, I must inform you that you are using it incorrectly.
There are two variables: Total damage for the bomb, and the time it takes between placing the bomb. Charge time, as it were.
Let's try again, shall we? You are correct that maximum hits are 13, and damage adds up to 390 wherever it is you calculated that. At max charge time, DR takes 1225 milliseconds to charge up. 390 / 1.225 = 318.
@Xtweeterx
Old RSS launched eight projectiles from where the bomb was placed in the cardinal and ordinal directions. If the enemy was directly on top of the bomb, they would be struck by all projectiles, resulting in massive damage.
Within the confines of the game, I would have to agree with Nick's comments about RSS not being bomby enough for two reasons: that the shards traveled at perfect and constant angles, and that they traveled further than any projectiles generated by guns.
Not that I agree with the new bomb. Nothing that effectively kills a class is a positive change, whatever the argument.
You know, if the old RSS would have gotten, I don't know, a hit limit as to not get those OHKOs, maybe it wouldn't have been needed to change them. I wonder if it would be able to implement such a feature on a weapon... /crushingirony Maybe that would also be useful to balance some weapons that multihit on charge but again, it is impossible to implement most likely. /plsneedrez
...And maybe reducing the distance a little.
@aumir agreed. or perhaps made a RNG that determined which "angle" the 8 should go, though idk how realistically doable that would be
@zeddy I like pie, do you?
What's the DPS of Irontech Destroyer?
And of Nitronome?
What about shard bombs hitting with two shards and the core?
Now that you have calculated those, tell me why are you calculating DR differently.
DPS is a calculation of damage over time. I want you to understand this concept, because you show that you are not. Whether I deal 1000 damage in the first second and do nothing for the next 10, or I do 100 damage 10 times over 10 seconds, I do 100 DPS. To calculate DPS, you simply divide total damage by total time.
Let's say I plant 10 million DRs.
My 10 million DRs will, combined have done a damage of 390 * 10 million = 3.9 billion damage. How long did it take for all of this damage to be dealt? 1.225 seconds * 10 million = 12.25 million seconds. We add your 4 seconds for the final bomb to go off. 3.9 million damage / 12.25 million seconds (+4) = slightly above 318.
10 million DRs will, over the course of 12.25 million seconds do much more damage to a single target than you could whacking away at it with acheron. Millions more.
It was specifically designed to allow demos to snipe. Unfortunately, we can't do that now can't we? I don't think RSS will be changed back any time soon.
So before I wasn't able to graph it out like I wanted to, and had the wrong idea of multiple bombs going off in my head. My earlier figures were assuming the bombs exploded as soon as they were planted >.< I have no idea why I was thinking that. It's been a long semester. Calc 3, differential equations, linear algebra, and data structures... if you are in/heading to college, never take 3 math classes in one semester. anywho
You are mostly correct. I don't like your thinking of DPS because it really is better to treat the two types differently in my opinion, but it works. You're just slightly off, by a matter of decimals.
If you plant 10,000 there are two separate timers you have to take into account: charge time and detonation time. There's also the fuse time, which I estimate at 1.8 after some testing.
Consider the time the first one is planted t=0. With respect to that time, each new bomb will be planted at: sum(1.225,n,2,10000). Each bomb will detonate at: .55+ sum(1.225,n,1,10000)
Copy those into wolframalpha.com if you don't have a graphing calculator or know summation notation.
The ten-thousandth bomb will detonate when 12250.575 seconds have passed. Add 4 seconds to finish. After 12254.575 seconds, 390*10000 will have been dealt. You end up with a DPS of 318.248.
What you're doing is using the total plant time (here 12248.775)+4 and dividing by total damage, which gives you 318.295 DPS. Just slightly off ;) If you'd like I'll post the graph I made to visualize it.
But I will formally say you were right and I started with misconceptions. My apologies. It appears we have one decent damage bomb, except against undead...
So what was this thread's topic again? xD
I don't know, I just spotted an opportunity. Besides, everyone's technically biased in some way or another due to different experiences and surroundings.
My method increases in accuracy as time spent approaches infinity. Another way to think of DPS is that you're just "sampling" a portion of time spent doing damage somewhere in the middle of a big chunk of it. During this sample, only values which affect the time from you being able to plant one bomb to the next one have any say at all.
That being said, I've made a mistake. I've been trusting the charge time values on the bombing guide implicitly. It's true that bombs seem capable of charging at 1.225 milliseconds. Certainly no faster than that. However, the animation for actually planting the bomb takes a good 0.17 seconds in itself. We''ll just add a full 0.2 seconds for good measure. 390 / 1.425 = 273. In practice, I haven't been able to plant bombs any closer than 1.5 seconds of eachother.
Oh, I though it was related to some comment on this thread. Sorry for making you explain the pun/joke. :P
Zeddy, I was pretty sure it would, but my ti89 crashed when I tried to run it for 10 million xD but I forgot about the plant animation too. Still puts it +70 on acheron without any having UVs.
But nice Byas. That takes true skill
Swords that shoot lasers, pulsar bullets somehow able to multiply kinetic energy transfer by tenfold ( I mean, look at how slow the bullet, but how great the knock back! It doesn't obey the laws of physics XD), are all okay, but shrapnel bombs are a No.
No.
Nick stated it wasn't bomb like enough, not in their opinion or in the style of the game, and that statement was simply wrong.
Basically, they have screwed themselves over now as any new bombs that come out that aren't bomb like will just start the fire about the RSS again.