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Nerf fiends.

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Sun, 05/05/2013 - 03:53
The-Cutest-Boy's picture
The-Cutest-Boy

The title sums everything up, but if you want the long version:

I can provide hundreds of screenshots that prove a few things.

1: I, like many other players, can consistently solo all 3 stages of a T3 arena, and in all 3 stages of it, will both enter and leave with 100% full health, without even using a single pill.
1#2: But only if it has no devilites or greavers, the fastest enemies in the game.

2: Devilites are the deadliest common enemies in the game, now that greavers no longer spawn in groups.

3: The fiends group of enemies is the most deadly group in the game by a huge margin.

The problem:
Using the 7-2, 7-3 and 8-1 missions as examples, (The 6 that focus on the 6 individual monster groups), I entered the 4 7-2 and 7-3 ones with full health, and I left with full health and 3 unused pills in my bar. On my first try on the 8-1 T3 fiend mission, about 5-10 minutes in, I was overwhelmed by roughly 8-10 devilites and 4-6 spookats in a confined area. I entered that area with almost full health, (Took a hit from a group of devilites before; aside from greavers, they're the only enemies that can consistently hit me and other players), 3 pills and both tetra pendants on. 1, maybe 2 minutes of dodging, weaving, shielding and barely managing to attack back a single time, I used up all 3 pills, and I was still back to below 50% health. I had to return to haven rather than pointlessly die and waste energy. This is where the problem comes into play: when you're surrounded on all sides in close quarters by slimes or gremlins or whatever-enemy-that's-not-a-fiend, it's no problem. You can focus on all 10-15 of them, or even all 25+ of them if there's groups of mini enemies, like scarabs, because they all have relatively slow movement speed, or relatively slow attack speeds, or both.

Devilites (and greavers) have neither of those things - slow movement speed nor slow attack speed, so you can't focus on all 10-15 of them simultaneously. They deal all the same damage as common enemies, they spawn in the same groups of 1 all the way up to more than 15 simultaneously, depending on the mission, and yet their movement speed is insanely high, as is their attack speed. When you have 8, 12 or even 16+ enemies all attacking at different rates on all sides, it's not so bad, as long as they're slimes or robots or what have you. If they're greavers or devilites, you will be hit. Repeatedly. Maybe even to the point of dying. All because,

1: Their attack speed is so high compared to other common enemies.
2: Despite this, they do just as much damage as other common enemies with slower attacks.
3: Despite both of the above, they can and almost always will move faster than you do. A perfect example being just a few minutes before I started writing this. I joined a friend in the Whipping and Mishandling mission, a 6-2 one. On the 3rd level of this mission, there was this area: http://i.imgur.com/GhAceDq.jpg Due to extremely bad luck, after 3 levels in a row, I didn't come across a single heart capsule to boost my health, and out of 2 pills found, I took 1 and my partner took the other. As you can see, I've already taken 1 hit, leaving me at 74% health despite 4* shadow armor, 4* shadow helmet, 4* shadow shield and 2 tetra heart pendants. In that picture, I fire 1 shot. That's one of the only shots I had time to fire out of all the 30+ seconds the fighting lasted.
4: And despite all of that... Three Rings still wants them spawning in amounts ranging from 1 to as many as 20 all spawning at once.

At one point in the fight in the above screenshot, I was here: http://i.imgur.com/RwFFFrD.jpg (I'm invisible due to flickering while taking damage. This was the moment my shield broke.) In this picture, I have a fiend circled in blue with two arrows nearby. This is the path the fiend took when strafing. You know, that extremely high speed movement, almost teleporting, from one spot to another. It did this twice. First, from where it's circled to where the 1st arrow leads, then from where the 1st arrow leads to where the 2nd arrow leads...

And in this picture: http://i.imgur.com/bCpppK8.jpg It did it 2 more times in a row. It started behind me and to my left. On the 3rd 'teleport' let's call it, it actually ended up in front of me, because hey, why not give groups of enemies that spawn in packs of 10+ the ability to teleport faster than the player can move. On the 4th teleport, it finally paused, allowing me to pull back ahead of it and fire off that 1 shot, though its friends were still happy to keep spamming their ranged attacks at me all the while.

To give you some insight into what this was like, check out this picture, taken 6 and 12 seconds before those other 2: http://i.imgur.com/iGr1Yav.jpg On-screen, you can see 7 devilites targeting me to attack. You can even see weapons being thrown toward me from off-screen by 2 more devilites on radar/the minimap in the topright corner, for a total of 9v1. Give me 9v1 slimes. Give me 9v1 gremlins. Give me 9v1 robots. I swear, 9/10 times, I'll come out either with the same health I had when I came in, or one of 'em will drop a heart capsule, I'll pick it up, pick up some hearts they drop and walk out with even more health than I had when I came in. 9v1 devilites? Nah. For all my dodging, for all my kiting, for all my shielding, for all my gear being 100%, well, 'geared' toward defending from these exact enemies, those screenshots show it was no good. 9+ of them actively fighting me. I didn't manage to kill a single one before they got me to slightly below 50% health. I was going to die, so once again, for the 2nd time this year and the 2nd time this week, I had to return to haven before I died a pointless death and wasted energy for no reason. Looking back on it, I have no idea how I soloed that mission without dying. Maybe it has a split path, I got lucky and ended up on a level that wasn't that one; who knows. Whatever the case is, this time around, with a dead partner not contributing anything, I had no such luck. 9 devilites, not counting the 4-8 off-screen who weren't actively trying to kill me, vs. 1 human player = 1 dead player, given enough time.

When you experience firsthand how these enemies bring you down to 74, then 48, then 22% health, you use 3 ultra health pills and 1 status cure pill with 2 tetra heart pendants and full shadow armor equipped, then have to leave the mission anyway to avoid dying, it's extremely plain to see that fiends - specifically devilites and perhaps still greavers; I haven't yet had a chance to see what the new greavers are like compared to the old ones - are vastly overpowered compared to any other enemy in the game. Give me a mission with nothing but gremlins and robots, and I'll come out with full health and 3 unused pills in my bar. Give me a mission with nothing but the undead and slimes and I'll do the same. Give me nothing but fiends, and I'll take heavy amounts of damage despite my dodging and blocking, and will not come out with 3 unused pills.

How to solve it:
There are plenty of options.
1: The most obvious one being, "Do what you did with greavers just a couple of days ago; reclassify them as elite enemies so they no longer spawn in groups of 8, 12, or even 16+." Then again, if you did this, there wouldn't be many non-elite fiend enemies left, so let's look at other options.

2: Make them focus on using melee instead of ranged attacks, or remove their ranged attacks altogether. They, like greavers, can consistently move faster than the player can, making this a very small nerf indeed; they'd still be able to 'teleport' right up to the player, as usual, and get in a melee attack. When it's 1 devilite vs. 1 player, this is ridiculously easy to block, though very difficult to dodge. But it's rarely 1 devilite vs. 1 player. It's usually 4-14 devilites vs. 1-4 players, making it hell on Earth and almost impossible to escape unscathed.

Since only removing their ranged attack would barely dent their DPS at all, due to their ability to 'teleport' next to the player and quickly use a melee attack, this wouldn't be enough to nerf them down to the same level of difficulty as other enemies in the game. So let's continue looking at more options.

3: Lower the frequency with which they attack. If you're going to have them spawn in groups of 10+ with all of them attacking us from literally every side at once, at least make it so that... Well, let me put it this way. Think of 5 seconds in a fight vs. the usual 10+ devilites. In the 1st second, you're blocking 1-3 of them attacking you. In the 2nd second, you're blocking a different 1-3 of them attacking you. In the 3rd second, you're still struggling to shield and dodge simultaneously while a different 1-3 of them attack you... And your shield breaks, and now you're damaged without ever laying a hit on them. By lowering how often they attack by a large amount, players would actually have a chance to shield against one attack and run away before other devilites attack again, instead of the usual, "Awesome, my shield is receiving 2-4 blows per second and there's nothing I can do about it."

4: Increase the amount of time they take to 'broadcast' their attack. You know how a gun puppy opens its mouth, pauses for a second, then attacks? That gives you time to dodge or shield or both. I'm almost certain that, out of every single enemy in the game, devilites' primary ranged attacks have the shortest pause/'broadcast' time in the entire game. One moment they're standing still, the next, they're attacking you almost instantly. I don't know about you, but this makes it so that, whenever I block their attacks, it's almost always at the very last fraction of a second, and if I had been just a tiny bit slower, I would've been hit. Funnily enough, I don't have this problem with any other enemies.

5: Lower their health. The faster they die, the faster we can fight back against the 10+ of them that are still alive. For example, when 10 are alive, I can barely fire off 1 AP bullet every 5 seconds or so, due to constantly being bombarded by attacks at least once per second, if not far more frequently than that. But when only 2 are alive, I feel safe firing off 2 AP bullets, shielding, waiting for them to attack and repeating. Hey, speaking of killing them quickly...

6: Give us back the old AP. It would finally take 'em down a beg, so it's not, in terms of deadliness, devilites and greavers > every other enemy in the game. Why did you do this in the first place? Let's take a look at this.

2 years ago,
T3 100% elemental guns that don't force you to freeze for 1-3 seconds while firing, unable to block or even move: 5 (That don't force you to hold still for 1-3 seconds while firing, unable to block or even move)
T3 100% piercing guns that don't force you to freeze for 1-3 seconds while firing, unable to block or even move: 1. Argent Peacemaker. It was literally the only one in the game that didn't do that.

Now,
T3 100% elemental guns: 6 (Same, don't force you to be defenseless and motionless for 1-3 seconds)
T3 100% piercing guns: 0 (Same)

All because AP was pointlessly changed from piercing to elemental. Why, Three Rings? 5 good elemental guns wasn't enough for you, and 1 good piercing gun was too many..? It was one of the only weapons that worked well against fiends. Now there's nothing that works well. Now everything is, either it deals low DPS to 'em but lowers the risk of you receiving damage, (I.E. "safe guns," guns that aren't autoguns or a magnus line gun), or it deals high DPS to 'em, (Assuming they don't dodge, which they do 33-50% of the time), but vastly increases your damage received by 100-500%, due to forcibly being frozen for 1-3 seconds while firing, unable to move or even shield. So why not make AP the way it was before? It's objectively a good decision. I'll take 1 good piercing gun and 5 good ele guns over 0 good piercing guns and 6 good ele guns every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

7: Or just add a new line of piercing guns to the game that aren't "unsafe" ones, like literally 100% of all piercing guns in the game right now. The autoguns and magnus line ones that force you to hold perfectly still and unable to shield for 1-3 seconds during every attack, 100-300 seconds per every level, with no choice but to take damage from enemies. So why not add just one piercing gun that isn't an "unsafe" one? I don't think one is too much ask for.

8: Here's another thing you can do: slow down the speed their projectiles travel at. From what I saw while playing with that friend in the screenshots above, every single attack that hit him was a ranged one, not a melee one. Not only is the warning that they're about to come at you extremely brief, the projectiles themselves move extremely quickly compared to more common projectiles, like the bullets that standard gun puppies and spookats fire. Why are every single aspect of devilites either equal to or faster/more powerful than other common enemies..?

9: One more option you can utilize: simply make them deal less damage. If you're a three rings dev who reads all this and actually decides to nerf fiends, if you only use this option, sure, we'll still be taking hits 500 to 5000% more often than we do from all other enemies in the game, but I guess at least it won't hurt as much... Meh.

The best option would probably be some combination of two or more of the above, if you ask me.

To help back up my words about almost never taking hits from non devilite and greaver enemies, here, have an album of over 100 images of the last T3 arena I ran. Due to having to upload the pictures 15 at a time, about 1 in every 15 or so are going to be out of order, but aside from that, enjoy: http://imgur.com/a/4WNeN#0 Zero hits taken throughout all the fights, so zero pills used. Just before stepping on the party button in the first room, I set down a spike shower bomb. After that, I only used 2 guns for all 3 sections of the arena.

Don't hesitate to post below and let me know what you think about all this.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 04:14
#1
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
yeah, sure.

keep using AP and you will keep dying. you don't need fast and little bullets for devilites. you need the pulsar line or the brandish line. even alchemers will do because of the charge. AoE is what kills devilites the most. using the peacemaker will get you killed because you can't hit them.
I use polaris for those because I know where they will dodge (well, 75% of the times). they aren't a big deal for me becuase of that.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 04:38
#2
Troupe-Forums's picture
Troupe-Forums
they were already nerfed

you're doing it wrong.
Try callahan or polarising them.
if that fails, blitz.
Or using a toothpick on them if you're using swords.

removing their ranged attacks would leave normal devilites with no attacks and make overtimers even less menacing than wolvers.

they don't even track any more, seriously...

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 04:39
#3
The-Cutest-Boy's picture
The-Cutest-Boy
I agree that AoE damage works

I agree that AoE damage works well against fiends, since they often spawn in large groups and sometimes get/stay tightly grouped together. I'll take your word for it on pulsars and try out the new one I bought on fiends ASAP. Thanks for the polaris advice; I'll end up improving this kilowatt pulsar to a polaris if it turns out to be as useful against devilites as you say.

Edit for the 2nd post: Swords, autoguns and the magnus line guns are a death sentence since they force you to be defenseless and motionless, (Or in the case of swords, able to move, but with far less control and still no ability to shield in the middle of combos, not to mention you have to be within an enemy's attack range while using a sword, which isn't always a problem when using a gun), while attacking. Never using 'em is what allows me to almost always end missions with 100% health and 3 unused pills, compared to teammates who died 1-5 times and are still missing health when the mission ends. But I'll definitely be trying out the pulsar line now, and frankly, I'm disappointed in myself for not trying one sooner.

Edited the OP with several more paragraphs, now mentioning specific ways devilites could be nerfed, (Or other things could be improved), to make it so that they're not vastly more deadly than all other common enemies in the game. I'll be right back, time to test this pulsar on fiends.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 04:41
#4
Troupe-Forums's picture
Troupe-Forums

Swords/Magnus are suicide?
I clear the devilite prestige missions regularly using nothing but my final flourish and callahan with no deaths. practice makes perfect.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 05:07
#5
The-Cutest-Boy's picture
The-Cutest-Boy
Then you're literally

Then you're literally somewhere between 50 and 100x better than every single sword-and-gun user I've ever met, maybe even the #1 best sword user I've ever met in my entire life.
And yes. Swords force you to get within 100% of all enemies' attack range to attack them. Guns don't do that. You can't control your movement nearly as well when attacking with a sword as you can when attacking with a normal/safe gun, and when using an autogun/magnus line gun, you can't move at all. Not one step. Furthermore when using those guns, when your enemies dodge, or your aim was sliiightly off: too bad. You're going to continue holding still and firing in that direction for 1-3 seconds. Aaand on top of all that, as if all of that wasn't bad enough already: you also can't shield at all at those times. Being 100% defenseless during 90% of the time I'm fighting isn't my thing.

Initial testing with a kilowatt pulsar vs. fiends, just before this scheduled maintenance:

Pros:
It's inflicting shock on them way more frequently than I was expecting
I have no complaints about the DoT that shock causes

Neutral notes:
I'm on some T2 fiend mission, and I'm not quite sure how this gun will do if/when I ever upgrade it to polaris and use it in a T3 fiend mission, damage-wise
Firing 2 pulsar rounds instead of 5 AP rounds is both a blessing and a curse; I can't get off as many shots when I use a pulsar when there are only 1-3 fiends compared to how many I'd be getting off with my AP. However, when there are 4-20 fiends at once, this lack of shots before reloading helps keep me from firing too many bullets at once before shielding, encouraging me to be more cautious instead of taking unnecessary damage from firing too many shots at once
I watched a small pulsar bullet hit a fiend, deal 0 damage, turn invisible as if the bullet hit... Then reappear a second later on the opposite side of the fiend, traveling along the same path and expand/explode. Then again, this more or less happens to me with alchemers and AP too sometimes, so it's no better and no worse when it comes to this aspect

Cons:
Due to the bullet's velocity being roughly on par with those that gun puppies fire, combined with how slowly it fires compared to AP:
Shots I fire from an AP that actually hit a fiend per second while attacking: 1-3 per second
Shots I fire from a pulsar that actually hit a fiend per second while attacking: 0-1 per second
They're too slow to hit in many cases, unless the fiend chooses to hold still and take the hit, not dodge
The bullet expansion/explosion at the end of its lifespan isn't making up for the above nearly as much as I was expecting it would, but maybe in wider areas it would, since the first area I've tested it in wasn't large enough for most of my shots to be fired at a distance. Most shots were fired at close range in this first test
Shock is causing them to spasm way less often than I was expecting. From what I saw, 0 of the spasms interrupted their attacks, and that's what I was hoping for the most

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 05:14
#6
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
mmm

are you shooting always in the same direction with that pulsar?
I ususally get them (even in 1vs1) because I shoot in one direction, then 30° off the target, right or left. I hit them practically 75% of the time with that tecnique. (is that the right spelling?)

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 05:39
#7
Maycandy's picture
Maycandy

Instead of nerfing fiends, why don't we just buff everything else. Either way, people are going to yell at OOO

@Thunder-the-Bright there is a "h" somewhere in "tecnique" but I'll let you decide where :)

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 06:06
#8
Skyguarder's picture
Skyguarder

There was already a balance for devilites. If you nerf it and make it weak, then either put more devilites in the level (2x more) or balance other friends besides devilites.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 06:37
#9
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances

Whatever, this analysis goes both ways. Are fiends the ones needing a nerf or do all the other monsters need a buff?

"1: I, like many other players, can consistently solo all 3 stages of a T3 arena, and in all 3 stages of it, will both enter and leave with 100% full health, without even using a single pill."

See, this is wrong, where's the challange? What's the point of playing if you can't lose? Enemies NEED to be harder. We HAVE to die. That's how a game should be. A literal pain in the a**. And only devilites provide that.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 06:48
#10
The-Cutest-Boy's picture
The-Cutest-Boy
I don't know if you're

I don't know if you're trolling or you've just never played a T3 mission with nothing but fiends before. What makes devilites (and greavers) so deadly is their stun locking. You could even call it "shield locking." You and your enemy both attack, you eventually have to block, you're about to fight back but another attacks almost instantly, so you have to keep shielding, another attacks almost instantly, so you have to keep shielding, another attacks almost instantly, so your shield fails and you take damage. They keep attacking 0-6 times per second, you have to keep shielding. Their overwhelming numbers and literally impossible to escape speed (greavers only, you can get away from devilites if they happen to stop attacking, forget about you and you get far enough away) guarantees that they will hit you eventually, if there are too many of them/if you're stuck in an area with too little space to attack them from a distance where they remain non-hostile, which is rare.

2x more devilites would make it literally impossible to get past any devilite area without taking hits, and in the areas that already spawn 10-25 devilites, it would be impossible to make it through without using at least 3 pills and almost certainly dying at least once from the constant, nonstop stun locking. They force you to shield more than any other enemy due to the large numbers they spawn in, the high frequency with which they attack compared to other enemies, the high speed of their attacks themselves and their movement speed/teleporting which they use to constantly remain close enough to attack you. I don't know if you've ever had to solo 20 devilites simultaneously before in a room where the only safe ground to walk on is 1/3rd the size of a guild hall. Or if you've had to fight 3v1 greavers who are constantly being healed to full health by 2 butterfly fiends with 2 T3 gun puppy turrets, 4 common undead enemies and barbed wire all around you complicating things further. But some people have. In that last example, the only difficult thing is, 1: the greavers, since it's literally impossible to get away from them, unless you find a way to knock 'em far away and stay away on the opposite side of the arena while you deal with the other 1 or 2 of 'em, and 2: the fact that the butterflies kept healing them to full health before they were killed.

Revised kilowatt pulsar pros/cons over AP,

Pros:
It's inflicting shock on them way more frequently than I was expecting
Due to devilites and greavers being notorious stun lockers, the DoT that shock causes while you're forced to shield is a blessing
After barely spending 1 more minute getting used to using it at a distance, you're right; I'm now hitting more devilites per second with this pulsar than I am with my AP, at a distance
Furthermore, you, the person using the pulsar, are now the one stun locking the devilites instead; the trick to staying alive is focusing on stun locking as many as you can simultaneously so that they can't fight back, just like they usually do to human players

Cons:
Those last 2 cons above only work if the area you're fighting them in is 1: large enough to fight them at a distance, and 2: you're able to get away from them long enough to start doing it. If one of those two things is true but the other isn't, or both aren't, then neither of those last 2 benefits I listed will work, making it more difficult for any of those 4 benefits to work
It only works temporarily when you're fighting 10-20 simultaneously; sure, you can stun lock 5, 7, maybe even 9 at a time, but there'll always be 1, 2, 3, 4 or even more outside that tight group that'll start attacking you, and that's where things remain dangerous
Pulsars seem to be 100%, absolutely, positively ineffective against fiends, due to the fact that 80% of the time, they move at equal speed to the player, and about 20% of the time, they move somewhere around 2-4x faster than the player, making it almost impossible to get away from them. 99% of the time, they're as close to you as they possibly can be, and at that range, pulsars can't knock them back. If you were already far away from them, you could use the pulsar's long range attack's knockback to keep them away. But that requires them already being far away... And greavers aren't known for politely staying as far away as possible
Shock is causing them to spasm way less often than I was expecting

Postponing reading and replying in this thread until I get and use a polaris for awhile, or I lose interest in this game again, whichever comes first

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 06:55
#11
Skyguarder's picture
Skyguarder

What Little-Juances said

If it's not challenging enough for alot of people, then what's the point in nerfing? It should be buffed then.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 07:31
#12
Klipik's picture
Klipik

Fiends are still a difficulty spike (except Gorgos.) They might not be too hard, but they're definitely harder than everything else with the possible exception of thousands of mecha knights or thwackers. They don't necessarily have to be nerfed, but it's either that or buff everything else.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 08:25
#13
Brother-Zeke's picture
Brother-Zeke
/agree with Troupe-Forums

I soloed the mission this morning, no pills needed (even though there were only two given the whole run) using Snarby Set, CoA, BTB, and Callahan. Try using Callahan and flinch locking them then finish off with a piercing sword, or just finish them off with the third shot (may be four shots to kill overtimers)

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 09:11
#14
Exerpa's picture
Exerpa
There is an issue with fiends

There is an issue with fiends and Callahan - Devilites lack a knockdown animation.
Callahan excels at locking wolvers and gremlins into place because they can not recover before you land next shot, even if you use the full clip and reload. Devilites however can only be flinched and therefore can escape when you reload.

Suggestion 1: Add a knockdown animation to devilites. Better yet, make sure that all the common monsters can be knocked over.
Suggestion 2: Double check the knockdown resistance on said monsters, notice that Callahan looses the ability to knockdown zombies somewhere in Tier 3, Dark Briar Barrage also has the same issue. No idea if this is a deliberate design choice or not, but as it stands the main attraction of this gun style is lost on devilites and zombies.

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 10:51
#15
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

[comment deleted]

Sun, 05/05/2013 - 16:47
#16
Qwez's picture
Qwez
I feel like you just don't understand the poor, overworked guys.

AP should be enough to deal with them easily... You know they're either going to dodge left or right >.>

-They only throw when they're locked onto you.
-At close range they tend to try to smack you (vulnerable moment).
-They dodge left or right, even when dodging might be into a wall.
-Having teammates can make it worse.

I support buffing other monsters, and anyways when Dodging and Bashing comes along, Fiends will be simple to destroy.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:18
#17
Asukalan's picture
Asukalan
The fact that you can beat

The fact that you can beat anything and have only problem with fiends does not mean fiends are broken. Maybe you are to self confidient, maybe your gameplay is flawed. Anyways suck it up, you fail at fiends, avoid them, many people get very well along with fiends. If they die they improve instead of coming on forum making wall'o'text with whining and crybabying.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 18:21
#18
Gent-Soopakoopa's picture
Gent-Soopakoopa
Tofu.

Eh, fiends are fine. Devilites, pitbosses, gorgos, overtimers. Use either a "toothpick" sword, or else
something from the troika series which can do massive damage and stat debuffs over a wide area.
Firotech alchemer-line guns work well too, just run around in circles constantly. You'll wear the
little buggers down eventually. If all else fails, find some friends or guildmembers who are good
with fiends and have them come alng with you on such missions.

Now greavers....I have to agree, they're a pain. But still.

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