There is no more "lifting" of bombs to start a charge, the charge starts automatically and you maintain normal walking speed. (dropping a bomb or releasing a charge too early still slows you down, and there is a new effect for a failed charge.)
Thank you guys so much. Holy crap. Bombing actually feels so much more fluid now. It's amazing.
The normal walking speed is unintentional--a bug. Sorry! The new effect for the failed charge was done on purpose, though.
I read the thread title and I was like Yay! I might go back to bombing because of this, then read that the speed was a bug T_T
Bombers get trolled again! XD ( the new animation is nice though, pity that bombers couldn't keep the speed though, it would really put it on par with swordmasters and gunners, I guess bombers will just have to keep on being easy pickings in LD for now XD )
Oh, and just a quick question, could you guys add LD to the testing server? It would really help out to test these features in a pvp environment, see if there could be any bugs/exploits before releasing this feature.
Ohhhhh :( Would, uh, would this bug perhaps stay in if we asked really nicely?
With regards to Lockdown, we specifically disabled that feature for now so we could get feedback focused on how the abilities feel in the Clockworks. We will likely hold a separate PvP-specific test in the future.
I wouldn't mind bombs returning to their intended walk speed, but I'm still kinda disappointed that instant bomb lifts aren't supposed to happen. Being slowed to a crawl for a split second when you try to *start* a bomb charge makes bombing feel clunky.
<3
Also I like the little cloud of dust over your bomb whenever you stop charging it (before detonation of course)
And yeah I noticed that when I picked up my Mad Bomber set... I really enjoyed it and felt faster... I did 19-22 as bomber only and I enjoyed it more than I usually does in the real server (I did not used dash or shield bash much, but it was nice)
In as much as I am 'USED' to working with that abrupt delay that occurs every bomb use, I do agree with Nordic that it leaves bombing feeling a bit more clunky than it ought to be. There's already quite a bit of vulnerability when charging bombs, not to mention when you fail to charge it. To be honest, its just a lot more enjoyable without that abrupt walk 'delay'. That should be a plus, and there should be plenty of ways working around the removable of this in terms of balance. A simple tweak to the overall charge time might the only thing needed to keep things 'balanced', if that need be.
Also, consider the fact that the only thing you can do with bombs is charge them. With swords and guns, you can do a more immediate action; granted, you lose pace when swinging a sword, but the action is otherwise immediate, and you have a good range of flexibility on hand (I.E shield cancelling or defending quickly after a single hit). And at the very least you only slow down when firing a gun (Aside from using the autogun series). Bombers, on the other hand, have to commit to purely charging; nothing is immediate. And when the one thing you want to focus on is bombing amidst a group of enemies, that split second of delayed walking really does make commit to a charge very troublesome, if not midly frustrating.
All of the elements that people have already mentioned leave pure bombers much more vulnerable to enemy attacks, and while people have learned to work about this (a'la the nitro shield, etc.), it makes me wonder why bombs don't do significantly more damage. Placing so many restrictions on bomb usage--lower walk speed, charge-only attack, additional animation time for lifting/placing bombs--implies that they should be on par with swords and guns for damage output, but of course that's not the case since we get one attack in and then have to wait for another charge. I understand this is a bug, not an intentional change to the game's mechanics, but it would go a long way toward balancing bombers with swordies and gunners if it were to BECOME an intentional game mechanic
Bombers have a much easier time dealing AOE damage than other classes. With the right setup a bomber can clear a room faster than a swordie or gunner. Increasing the damage output would then make us bombers too OP. We would then be able to drop 2 Nitros or 1 BAB and clear the whole room. Case in point, the old RSS, allowed for a one shot kill basically. Thus we now have Shard bombs? If they do increase damage, I can see them reducing both radius and knockback. I'll will take an increased blast radius though :P
I'm not saying that bomb damage SHOULD be buffed, I'm just saying that if you step back and look at the general mechanics of bombs vs. swords and guns, you would think that with all the restrictions placed on bombs the pure damage bombs at least (blast lines, etc.) would do more damage than they do. I mean, really, restriction-wise what is the sword or gun equivalent to a bomb? Maybe the 5* autogun lines? By the wiki: a blitz charge does about 2.5k-2.8k damage on a single neutral target in t3, and a DBB does a 217-230 to the same. Around ten DBB drops to do the same damage to the same target as a single blitz charge (and that's not beginning to address other balance issues, like only having one event-only piece of shadow def bomber gear, and no bomber gear at all with native pierce def). Any 'right setup'--i.e., using a DBB on beast-only levels--for a bomber to clear an area faster than a swordie or a gunner is still putting a bomber at a disadvantage in regard to overall balance.
tl;dr: I understand that bombs are supposed to be balanced relative to the difference in their AoE, but big-picture I think that going pure bomber is still underpowered compared to swordie and gunner equivalents. Keeping some small part of this bug (even just losing the bomb raise animation) would help in that regard.
tl;dr: I understand that bombs are supposed to be balanced relative to the difference in their AoE, but big-picture I think that going pure bomber is still underpowered compared to swordie and gunner equivalents. Keeping some small part of this bug (even just losing the bomb raise animation) would help in that regard.
Try this loadout in the preview test, you can basically kill anything with it
Gear:
Mad Bomber (or chaos) set
Volcanic Plate Shield (a good big shield with lots of normal defense)
Bombs:
Nitronome
DBB
DR
Status bomb of your choice, Voltaic, Venom and Shiv are good choice, you can go with stagger and ash to if you'd like...
Trinket:
Bomb dmg med
Penta heart, true-love locket
You will experience full dmg full ctr bombs with the main blast one, main pierce one and main shadow one with an elemental status too...
Nitronome usually kills in 3 shots, just like swordie and with the new charge buff/ASI buff, it's on par with swordie because of the AoE IMO...
Try it, 19 to 22 are really good spot to train as it is just hard enough, you can still try harder spots since you are on the test server... Although old school arenas are the most fun you'll ever have... Voltaic + DR + some Nitronome here and there or a Nitronome spam fest :D
The difference being: to be 'on par' with a swordie, you have to wear a set that gives you max dmg/ctr (or as close to it as you can get in a single set without UVs and trinks) with multiple maxed status penalties and only one native type of damage defense. That isn't even close to equal. The fact that pure bombers have learned to cope with it is not the same as it being balanced.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Callahan
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Dark_Briar_Barrage
Now that would be a more fair comparison. Blitz ridiculous damage is another problem.
The difference being: to be 'on par' with a swordie, you have to wear a set that gives you max dmg/ctr (or as close to it as you can get in a single set without UVs and trinks) with multiple maxed status penalties and only one native type of damage defense. That isn't even close to equal. The fact that pure bombers have learned to cope with it is not the same as it being balanced.
I was comparing DMG max vs DMG max... it takes 3 sword hits to kill a mob and 3 shots from drivers to kill a mob in DMG max... the difference is you can up ASI on guns and swords while it doesn't do squat on bombs
Edit: Go fight Dust bunnies with a DBB and then do it with a Blitz or Calahan or any flourish... not the same thing huh? Old school arena too it's much easier as bomber
But if you are a swordie or a gunner, you are getting max damage or max ASI in a set that offers you with a variety of different damage defenses, and with no negative status resists, that's my whole point... Yes, a DBB will kill lots of bunnies (an enemy that we've only had for a month now), and solo bombing with mad bomber or chaos will speed you through an arena (as long as you don't run across spikes/run into any status whatsoever, since you have no resistance to either), and that means everything is totally fine. Clearly I was wrong, my bad. If anything, the time on the bomb raise animation should probably be increased, since bombers are so OP. Think I'll put all my bombs away and go back to swording--I want to give the baddies a fighting chance, you understand ;)
[EDIT: I apologize for the snark. I very rarely get worked up about anything, but this is a sore spot with me. Players who are pure bomber, or at least mostly bomber, have consistently gotten the short end of the proverbial stick over and over again, and I assumed when I saw the bug and the new bomb-cancel animation that bombers were finally getting some long-overdue love. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the balance of bomber gear relative to swordies and gunners.]
@ Narfle
Just FYI, I was going full bomber for a lot of time... Obviously Zeddy is *the* bomberman by excellence but I am fairly good myself and you can rest assure, the new ASI buff makes a lot of difference... You can spam more efficiently than before...
I was happily surprise by the difference it makes in CTR Max. After so many hours of CTR Max bombing I kinda know where the sweet spot is to have the most spams so when this came in, I automatically felt it.
Of course Bombers are "underpowered" compared to swords mainly because of the delay of the bomb...
But if you compare bombs vs charge only swords or charge only guns they are well balanced... The problem is timing the bombs (which not a lot of people are fond of), but when you can time Venom Veiller + Voltaic Tempest + Dark Retribution spawn kills, it feels better than spawn killing with a brandish or a blitz... :D
we'll just have to agree to disagree on the balance of bomber gear relative to swordies and gunners
I guess so... o.O bombs are underpowered but not by much...
Edit: If bombers had a useful shield for them it wouldn't be as bad -_-
But that's just it, we're not getting a buff of any kind. What you are experiencing on the preview server is a just a bug. You don't need to assure me, I have tried it myself, and I agree that it feels much better, as others noted as well. It's just too bad that it's not a change that is going to be implemented on the main server.
I only see Eury say the walking speed is a bug. The skipping of the raise animation does not seem to be addressed at all.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see. I took, "The new effect for the failed charge was done on purpose, though" to mean that the failed bomb puff was the only intended change.
Well, I can still lift a bomb instantly after the update, and my run speed is lowered slightly while charging like normal.
Whoo!
The nice bomb lifting animation when you charge should be back now with the latest preview update.
I've contemplated the increase in damage to bombers but it still comes back to there are just broken weapons. Most of which just happen to belong to swordies and gunners. If anything the bomber class is the only class perfectly balanced. They evidently achieved this by nerfing the old shard bombs into what we have today. They had to balance bombers because of their AOE potential. You saw what we did with the old DR and RSS mechanics.....
Obviously I'm only speaking from my own experience, but as I said before, I was not trying to suggest that bomb damage should be buffed--I was merely using the blitz charge as an example of a non-bomb weapon that experiences somewhat similar restrictions to use, and pointing out the huge disparity in damage output therewith. The bomb movement bug people were running into on preview (or even just the loss of the bomb lift animation) would have been a nice small way of addressing some of that difference, but neither change is being implemented anyway.
Two things:
Thanks for letting us run while lifting bombs now! If that's intentional, I think it's pretty cool!
Secondly, the new bomb-fail animation cannot be shield-canceled. Are you planning to get rid of shield-canceling altogether or will this just be for premature bombs?
+1
The most impressive thing I have seen so far on the test server is what the OP has expressed. I can't tell you how much more natural bombing is! I hope that the it stays just the way it is! Right now, in the test server, I breath a sigh of relief every time I "lift" a bomb.
Test server bombing:*sigh*... BOOM! *sigh*... BOOM!! Mwahahah! Run for your lives fools!
Public server bombing: *grunt* *heave* *strain*... BOOM! *grunt* *heave* AAAA! RUN!... BOOM!! *sigh*, I wish these bombs weren't quite so heavy, it takes so much effort to lift them...
I love bombs, but the delay at both ends leaves a bomber open to a lot of attacks that swords and guns avoid.
@Zeddy: Eek! If they killed shield canceling... OOO, please don't do that.
I have to say, Bash and Dash is not very helpful for a bomber... anyone else feel the same?
The skill ceiling for bombing is really, really low. It's too easy and that's why it shouldn't be buffed.
@Neodasus
You mean you're able to shardbomb Vanaduke? I'm very impressed!
@Yvanblo
I find dashing and shield-bashing extremely handy for bombing. As a bomber, you often end up in these little situations where you're ganged up and don't have time to charge. If you had a sword or a gun, getting out of these situations would be simple, but with a bomb you used to only have shieldbumps and vials to rely on. Dash/Bash is great for things like greavers. I only wish the maneuvers were able to cancel your charge so you could use it right away instead of having to put your bomb down first. It really feels like at least dashing should be able to do that.
Patience is a virtue but hardly any indication of skill
@Zeddy: I guess I meant as opposed to with a sword or gun. With a sword, I dash, and then slash those little devilites with extreme prejudice. With a bomb... not so much, as they will have recovered long before I can charge and plant a bomb. Bombs don't have a sneak attack like swords and guns. Now if we could charge our bomb, dash, and then plant it...!!??
@Neodasus: Wow. so helpful. Bombs are, with a few exceptions, pretty slow to kill stuff. In my mind that makes it more difficult to go full bomber. If your in RJP with AOA and DR... that's different.
@Neodasus
So what you're saying is you can shardbomb Vana. Mind recording it? I've always wanted to see it done.
@Yvanblo
The stun on shield bash is pretty handy for setting up trojans and such.
@Yvanblo
Like I said, having patience does not necessarily make you a skilled player. The "skill" from bombing is actually based on a player's sense of judgement and his/her knowledge of the map. That's where the skill begins and ends. There is no advanced technique for bombing, you cannot shield cancel or use any techniques whatsoever. I did not say bombing took "0 skill"--I'm just saying the skill ceiling is very low. Regardless of solo'ing vanaduke with a proto bomb, that just means you are able to memorize attack patterns and are obviously a very patient and observant player. However like I said, that is really all a bomber can be without the 'twitch' aspect of the game.
edit: My point being, bombs should never be on par with swords and guns because of how easy it is for a player to reach the skill ceiling.
@neo: then a player of your obvious caliber will have no problems. I look forward to seeing it.
Why would I do something that isn't even skill intensive but rather time-intensive--for free. I'm not someone that plays for the ego.
Well, personally, I find pure bombing difficult, so I always carry a sword gun and bomb. Pretty sure there would have to be some major changes to get bombs "on par" with swords. As it is, you are implying that simply speeding up delivery of bombs makes them too easy to use, and that "everyone" is able to master bombs in short order. Not everyone shares your incredible skills of bombing.
D&B is great for moving about and getting out of the way, no matter what weapon you are using, as a defensive tactic. My point is that so far I have not found it very helpful when going offensive while toting a bomb. The skill is, however, incredibly fun and powerful when toting a sword. Now to get a vial for dash cooldown reduction...!!! Being powerful is fun, why are so many people opposed to it? Is it not fun to slay Trojans with a single charge attack from your trusty Blitz Needle?
EDIT: @Zeddy: You bomb trojans!?!? You ARE the man!
@Neodasus
Your argument makes no sense. Bombs don't get a lot of tricks you can use to make swording and gunning easier and therefore bombing is easier? Go shardbomb greavers and tell me that's easier than using swords somehow.
Also, try actually shardbombing Vana? You have to win the fight on your first try for your claim that it's easier than using Blitz Needle to be valid. (If bombing is easier than using guns, it's easier than using Blitz Needle.)
I'm not antagonizing anyone here. I'm trying to help you guys understand as to WHY bombs shouldn't be on the level of swords and guns. Maybe it's my fault for bringing up things you didn't know about. Please look up the meaning of the term "skill ceiling" and then come back. Thank you very much, I'm only trying to put things in perspective.
edit: Here I'll help you
1. http://tynansylvester.com/2009/12/skill-ceiling/
2. Great, now that you understand what skill ceiling is: let's look at that "Vanaduke challenge" you guys keep talking about. What level of bomber would one have to be to do this? Apparently at the 'elite' level, from what you're telling me. So in theory, an elite bomber would do this no problem? What would it take for a bomber to do this? Time and knowledge. That is where the 'skill' for bombers comes from, knowledge of bomb patterns and patterns of instances within the clockworks. Is there a limit to this? Yes, there is a physical limit of knowledge one can have from the game. Is it easy to obtain? Yes, observation of instances within the clockworks is all it takes for proper timing. Of course we're over-analyzing a "set and forget" play-style but I hope you see where I am getting at.
3. How much better do you think a bomber could be once he's reached this 'pinnacle of skill'? Ask yourself that question.
For the record, I don't use blitz needle. I've never used guns ever haha. I'm a gamepad player only and I use swords/bombs. I've solo'd vana with a flourish but that takes much less time than bombs and to an extent even blitz needle.
Neo... we know what skill ceiling means, thanks. Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean that we know less about the game. Over and over again you have come in to someone else's thread and either a.) tried to steamroll their ideas, b.) run the thread off track, c.) talked about how pro you think you are, or d.) all of the above. If you weren't trying to antagonize anyone, you haven't been doing a very good job.
I'm just saying that for the sake of balance this shouldn't happen. Regardless of what you may think of me personally, the fact remains that bombing is too GENERALLY easy for it to be buffed any further. The subtle buff should be enough.
Please keep it civil, folks. Locking this thread down as the topic has been exhausted and greatly derailed.
Agreed. Much, much smoother.