Spiral Knights - Allow Shield Bash to have different stats/effects dependent on what Shield is being used.

Allow Shield Bash to have different stats/effects dependent on what Shield is being used.

25 replies [Last post]

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 11:58

Glacies

So I recently went on the Test Server (not going to post any info here, but I wanted to make a suggestion here) and tried out the Shield Bash. It's not a bad concept but it could be way better. I'm sure there has been some suggestions on Shields being a more effective tool (I've seen some of them) but I might as well put my two cents here.

I understand that the ability has yet to be released officially but that's the best time to add suggestions into a core mechanic.

Damage:

From the official announcement of the Shield Bash we know that the Shield Bash will inflict a small amount of Damage upon successfully making direct contact with an enemy. My suggestion here is rather than all having a universal damage, why not allow shields to use their own defense to inflict that much damage? An example is that let's say I'm fighting Kats, instead of using something with Shadow Resistance such as Dreadskelly, what if I used an Elemental Shield to allow me to inflict slight Elemental damage when I Shield-Bash? Another example would be letting the Royal Jelly Shield inflict Piercing Damage rather than the universal damage. Allowing the Shield to be more effective as a tool to change the tide of battle instead of a defensive tool. I mean the point of the Shield-Bash is to sacrifice Shield Vitality for a bit of Power, right? It'd be the player's choice on either a more offensive approach or a more defensive approach to the challenge the player is facing.

Along the lines, color-coding would also generally be a good idea so we at least know what we're using:

Normal: Red
Piercing: Yellow
Elemental: Green
Shadow: Purple

I'm not talking about having damage as impressive as like a Divine Avenger hit or anything CLOSE to that. The Shield-Bash is nothing more than meant for a quick effective weak-attack. But allowing it to be more effective if only slightly would increase the usefulness of the ability. This brings us to my next suggestion:

Statuses:

I'm still trying to figure out how this one would possibly work but why not allow Shields with a Maximum resistance to a Status allow the player with a light chance to inflict that minor-status? I'm trying to figure out how a dual-status shield (See almost every shield ever) would utilize this. It'd allow the player to effectively turn the Shield into a some-what damaging tool.

My reasoning for the "Max" only able to inflict Status? UVs. We don't want a shield that can effectively have 3-5 Statuses applied to them. It'd make it unbalanced as you could just apply Shock, Stun, Fire, Freeze, and Poison all to one single shield. (I know Statuses can't be rolled, but luck does happen.)

My only suggestion I can currently think of for the dual-statues is take one of the elements and apply it to the Shield. An example would be Dragon Scale Shield would most likely inflict Fire due to the effect. I suggest letting OOO decide what effects should apply to what shield as long as you can average it out, we don't need 2-3 Shields that can inflict the same status.

Cosmetic:

Something I thought up on about Statuses is let the player know damage and status the player is using when Shield-Bashing.

My suggestion on this would be highlighting the Damage/Status the Shield will use for Attacking using an ambient glow while inspecting the Shield. Due to how Shields work (and you relying on them if this suggestion ever happens), it's highly suggested that we see some sort of way to view the stats on the Shield since we're turning it from a Defensive tool to an Offensive one by choice. It'd suck to have Dragon Scale Shield expecting it to inflict something when it instead inflicts something else.

I'm not expecting this to get any good views on it and like always on any suggestion I would like to see some constructive criticism.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 12:10

Hexzyle

Damage

So this is essentially a nerf to Construct and Beast levels, and a buff to all the other families?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 12:14

Glacies

Yeah, I had a feeling something like that would come along. Working with something that inflicts the same element with the same weakness doesn't really work out for this suggestion and it's nearly impossible for a workaround unless there were core mechanic changes applied to those families.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 12:33

Hexzyle

@Glacies

Status is also wierd, it's encouraging players to bring the wrong shield to the wrong levels, which doesn't make much sense...
Maybe have this as a UV?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 12:59

Zeddy

"Status is also wierd, it's encouraging players to bring the wrong shield to the wrong levels, which doesn't make much sense..."

Except it totally does. You're trading defence of offence, and that makes sense.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 13:15

Little-Juances

Wouldn't Owlite be totally overkill?
And what do we do with jelly?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 23:04

Klipik-Forum

I want my ancient plate shield to have more bashing power than most others... I mean... Look at it! It's as tall as I am! And it has spikes on it!

I think it would be better if they all did normal damage, but shield health was drained as a percentage and the amount of damage done by the bash would be proportional to the amount of health taken off your shield. That is to say, omega shell and plate would do a lot more bash damage than swiftstrike and BTS.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 00:20

Hexzyle

@Klipik-Forum

"but shield health was drained as a percentage and the amount of damage done by the bash would be proportional to the amount of health taken off your shield. That is to say, omega shell and plate would do a lot more bash damage than swiftstrike and BTS"

BTS has the same health as Plate.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 02:24

Glacies

All the Shields with the exception of Omega Shield and the Guardian Shield all share the same vitality depending on what rank they are.

As for the dual-statuses, the only logical thing I can really thing of is letting OOO decide what effect they apply. Clearly Royal Jelly would inflict Stun as Dragon Scale would most likely inflict Fire.

Also, Zeddy is correct, the point of this being is that you're essentially giving up your only line of defense for a more "pow" to your... well Power! Imagine the Deconstruction Zones, you could easily use Grey Owlite Shield for mass protection against those annoying Gun Puppies and Gremlins. Or you could approach the room much more differently and use something like a Dread Skelly Shield in place of the lost resistance. Allowing you to effectively use the Shield for a more quick-power escape that deals nice damage versus an Owlite Shield which would only provide a tiny bit. I mean you're sacrificing a large potion of your Shield's Vitality, you should be able to customize how that dash is used.

This also gives players more incentive to use other Shields instead of the usual Barbarous Thorn Shield and Swiftstrike Buckler. (NOTE: I do know some people actually DO use the other Shields for their intended defensive purposes rather than just sticking with the two listed above.)

Something I'd like to suggest if this is ever implemented is to color-code the attack. Respectively:

Normal: Red
Piercing: Yellow
Elemental: Green
Shadow: Purple.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 07:08

Hexzyle

I still think this should just be a UV, as:

Increase Bash Damage
Elemental Bash Damage
Shadow Bash Damage
Piercing Bash Damage

The first one would increase the normal damage of the bash, while the latter three would stack their appropriate damage on top of the normal shield bash damage. Maximum/Very High (depending on how the scale would work) would increase the bash damage by 44% (11% per level)

Hmm. Gives me an idea to make a UV thread...

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 14:47

#10

Klipik

@Hex

Oh. :P
Still...

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 17:53

#11

Glacies

Only main problem I see with that, Hexzyle would be those Triple Maxes people often get. You could easily have a shield inflicting Normal, Piercing, Elemental, and Shadow all within a single charge. Which not only would be really weird but insanely overpowered. Unless it was a passive UV that's applied to another UV (Such as "Shield Bash Damage Medium (PASSIVE: ELEMENTAL).) or have something such as an attachment slot in our Shields.

It'd be nice to see more UVs with rolling though for Shields.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 23:54

#12

Hexzyle

@Glacies

You could easily have a shield inflicting Normal, Piercing, Elemental, and Shadow all within a single charge

It wouldn't be THAT overpowered because you got the shield cooldown, (not to mention the shield bash is as slow as a troika combo when it comes to recovering) but you're right, maybe they shouldn't be able to stack them. Anyway, I'll keep that in mind when I make my thread (coz we're kinda derailing this one)

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 00:50

#13

Etharaes

This is quite a good idea. This would open up more gameplay options, and would also probably be good for OOO because it might encourage players to craft more shields.

Though, if Omega shell will do no more damage than grey owlite/dread skelly/royal jelly, I will rage.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 10:57

#14

Glacies

I updated the first post with a few more things (not much), trying to keeps this thread STAYING ALIVE, STAYING ALIVE.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 12:55

#15

Diamondshreddie

Wait a second.....

If they inflicted status respective to resistance, ad you were using jelly shield...

then it would have a chance to deal stun and...

O __ O

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 15:29

#16

Glacies

Make sure you read Statuses. Royal Jelly Shield would most likely only inflict Stun along with other shields only inflicting one status. Otherwise most shields would be Overpowered with multi-status.

Wed, 05/15/2013 - 10:32

#17

Diamondshreddie

but!

But if it inflicted sleep, there would be a great reason to use it!

Wed, 05/15/2013 - 13:08

#18

Nick

Developer

We may implement differences

We may implement differences in the future (we've discussed it), but not until we release the initial feature and collect data on how its being used by players.

Secondly, while variety is nice, the purpose of dash and bash is to give all players a useful ability that doesn't require too much thought. Adding further complexity where a bash might end up being suboptimal for a level could muddle things. But, we'll see!

Wed, 05/15/2013 - 14:46

#19

Glacies

@Diamondshreddie:

From perspective, Sleep is Overpowered if there was anything that could constantly inflict it would make everything an easy breeze. Luck or not, I'm sure the Developers do not want this.

@Nick:

I was wondering if you had ever taken the consideration into differences on this core mechanic and clearly you have. I understand as generally this could get a bit confusing on the Player's part (Especially if they're new to the game) and like you said depending on how it's implemented, could make things either better or worse.

And generally you're able to get more views on what to change from the entire community than just the few that have tested it.

The reason for the suggestion also, Nick, is that Spiral Knights was made for customization with the variety of Stats and Statuses and with this being a new core mechanic, Shields should really feature the same customzation not only with their Defense but with their newly-weak offense. You should know this though since you made the game. :P

I do hope that you'll take these suggestions into consideration if or when you do plan on adding more features to the Shield-Bash.

Thu, 05/16/2013 - 13:14

#20

Tedme

hmmm....

I like the idea, my thought on new players getting confused is, let Tier 1 shields do the same damage. This will let current players have fun choosing the "heavy" or "sturdy" shield for defense or offence, while letting new players get the hang of things before introducing this "new" aspect of differing damage. What do you guys think? Nick?

Of course, even if this works, Nick did say it will take a bit of time before adding the different damage.

On statuses, this should be WAY less common, but could work. Plate shields could have stun, Drake Scale could have fire, etc. but all status effects would be minor.

Fri, 05/17/2013 - 07:28

#21

Aumir

Well

I think this should be a given that different shields did different effects.

- Big shields like Omega Shell could have more pushback.
- Spiny shields like Barbarous Thorn shield should do a bit of damage.
- Fiery shields like Heater Shield could do a low Fire status effect added to the hit.
- Swiftstrike buckler and Jelly Shield could have no knockback and keep enemies nearby instead of spread them, with that spiral effect and slimy goodness.

Because right now, it looks like many shields are the same just some being clearly better than others. This could come with a buff in life in the more sturdy shields that aren't offensive like BThorn shield.

Thu, 05/23/2013 - 20:50

#22

Quotefanboy

Personal Note

The only thing I want to see is the Omega shell get buffed this way.

Being the "Health" shield, I feel like by using more health, it should have a more effective bash.

That's all I can say about shield bash upgrades. Everything else, other than the shield doing damage according to its element, might be unnecessary.

Fri, 05/24/2013 - 19:44

#23

Pawsmack

@OP/Glacies | Post #6

How are you going to tell Nick what Spiral Knights was made for? He never gave an official statement as to why Spiral Knights was created. I'm jussayin'... ._.

____
Hi guildy! :D

Fri, 05/24/2013 - 18:50

#24

Glacies

You got me there, I don't know what Spiral Knights was made for but I can only assume so much and like you said, without an official statement I don't know what Nick would like the game to be or so on.

@Aumir:

I want to make sure to give plenty of incentive to use other shields. The main problem I see with that is it gives no incentive to go out of the usual "Barbarous Thorn Shield"... Shield. The thing I see is people will try sticking to their usual "ASI High" or "Sword Bonus: Medium" Shields. A point to this is to push players outside of those boundaries.

Balancing is also a key factor in this that would have to be thought through on some things.

@Quotefanboy:

It would be nice to see Omega Shield get a buff but I don't see how it'd be unnecessary for each Shield to have it's own feature and incentive to stick with just one Shield with a passive ability.

Fri, 05/24/2013 - 19:58

#25

Quotefanboy

Well..

Here are some things I can see being changed.

A.) Damage according to element.
B.) Range and Knockback According to shield size (Buckler goes farther, Plate shields and such would block them back farther.)

Element could be very bad, because Shields that inflict freeze would be useless. They'd either stop you in your tracks, causing you to take damage, or you'd freeze them and then hit them out of it, causing a useless effect.

If anything, if an element would be added to a shield bash, it should be chargeable. If you charge your shield bash the bash will end with a Medium ranged explosion that will inflict status based on shields, but your shield would break upon doing so and wouldn't recharge for a little bit.
Yet that would be asking to make the mechanic of charging shield bashes, which we just got the thing so asking something like that can be going too far.

If anything, what I think they should do is tweak the health of every shield in the game (which shouldn't be too hard) and then make the shield bash take a certain amount of health, instead of a percentage. Causing shield bashing to be more risky for some shields, and less for others. This could also buff some of the lines out there, giving higher health to other shields allowing them to be more balanced due to shields more useful in the combat phase (See swiftstrike and Barb) will cost much more shield bar %.

On top of that, I can also see many armors getting buffs that can't be UV'd (Much like movement speed.)
Dash Cool down reduction, Dash Range, Shield Bash Cost Reduction, Shield bash Damage increase, Shield bash knockback increase.
All of those things can be added to the "Underpowered armors" out there to give armors a playstyle, as well as stats. Give cobalt a small amount of dash range increase, and shield bash damage while things like Ancient would give Cost reduction and Knockback increase.

That would allow the best of both worlds, giving shields more priority then just putting it out, and it'd give armors out there that "lack" the boost they need.

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Allow Shield Bash to have different stats/effects dependent on what Shield is being used.