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Questionable Map Design in Danger Missions. (RANT)

17 replies [Last post]
Tue, 05/14/2013 - 10:33
Whitechocolatechip's picture
Whitechocolatechip

Once again, this is a rant, but I feel this needs to be said. Yes I'm whining about danger mission difficulty, but not because I think enemies are inherently OP or that status strengths should be nerfed or any of that jazz.
I'm here to state that the current elements are great, but the way they are assembled by OOO archetype mappers just makes me want to cry. As an indie game modder, I can see bad design choices from a mile a way, and it seems many danger missions have these, if not all.

Legion of Almire (Prime Example):

Alright, so I've been close to being able to solo LoA for some time. Got a dread skelly set, an awesome tag-team of Cryo Driver and Volt Driver, and an avenger between my thumbs. Usually I get killed in the final ambush of the 2nd floor, final wave. That crep is pretty hardcore, and although it's pretty borderline slanted due to overspawn of enemies, it leans more on good challenge than bad.

Now what I bumped into 30 min ago that made this post mandatory, was an insanely tiny room carrying 4 Almirian guards, 2 skull turrets, 5-7 zombies, fire, one Über zombie, and 3 silkwings all at once. How bad was it? MSPaint Illustration here > http://imageshack.us/f/23/dangerroomilustration.png/

This room was so rigged, I only got to down 2 of the silkwings including one energy rev, I was being drowned in lead from the turrets nonstop, the uber zombie could rez zombies in any half of the room at any given point in time, and I was getting 2 to 3 ply walled by enemies nonstop. What the hell. The tiny room plus some good balanced enemies would've been fun, the uber zombie and turrets would've been fun, some zombies, uber zombie, and a silkwing or MAYBE two would've been fun. This is just immature.

Part of the job here of mappers is to assemble a challenge that is dangerous yet not total Armageddon 5 times a second.

Example?

Heart of Ice:

Heart of Ice has been consistently frustrating for me on the first floor due to a room that infinitely generates either greavers or silkwings, with the opening waves also carrying 3 or so natural greavers, I have yet to test this again with my shiny new Dark Thorn Blade. Pre-patch though, this area was absolute BS, mostly due to bullets not registering at point blank and elemental droppings. Skelly set has UV's for anti-frost and this is still a strong issue. Then greaver patch rolls in, and none of the greavers are downsized in numbers or replaced. What the hell.

Regardless, I've constantly attempting HoI to learn things and push myself further. It's worth noting I'm not very good at fighting fiends, but through practice I've recently learned a lot including mastering the method for fighting devilites.

So one day while I'm re-attempting, trying to learn, I notice the infamous greaver spam room of death isn't there. I'm delighted, yet puzzled, to find this nice alternate room in its place. It's a 2x3 [?] grid of rooms with respawning freeze skelly turrets. Killing the turrets temporarily opens the gates to the linking rooms and there's a narrow pass at the end. Contained within this room is 4 waves of gritty fighting.

About a half hour later, after slaying all the enemies, I note that was incredibly fun, yet not necessarily super dangerous every second. Regardless I've used all my medical supplies in the room set and had an awesome time doing it.

This is where this differs from these BS rooms I keep ranting about. The room presented challenge through larger numbers of balanced enemies in a gauntlet-like fighting method, not any super tiny rooms, overly dense placement, or general OP conditions. It was perfect.

Compound 42:

This is a nice example, since I'm currently spamming UV's on my soon-to-be umbra driver in attempts to swear vengeance. Toxoils are an interesting alternative for trash enemies since they are very powerful and well rounded, which is also kind of their flaw. They are, in many senses, Mary Sue type characters because they possess no drawbacks.

Regardless, this one gets me a lot. On the first floor there's a fire-ridden room with a very nonchalant ambush, but one of the waves spawns 3 polyps at once. This breaks down 50/50 as a BS situation, depending on luck. The polyps can either be cool bros and fire spikes and oil at you, but are challenging since they are quite tough due to poison overlay nerfing your damage... or they can be total jerkwads and just keep spamming toxoils over and over and over again. This becomes an issue that they don't wait for their current toxoils to die before spawning new ones, and don't seem to carry any feasible cooldown for spawning toxoils.

Once again, this can end quite badly due to the poison dampening your health, especially after the entire room is constantly on fire due to literally more than a dozen toxoils all at once, plus polyp fire (if they actually choose to shoot spikes for a change) This isn't so bad, if you're lucky you can best it, but the fact they sometimes do this at all is just ridiculous.

Ghost in The Machine:

GiTM isn't a particularly wowing danger mission for me to begin with, but I'm sure anyone that's reached floor 2 remembers the CPU-smashing room with the bombies.

For those who haven't, here's it in a nutshell: Über zombies and other competant enemies charge you in a room with many electrical hazards. However, any time you cross into the upper half of the room, 6 bombies spawn. Electrical bombies. This kind of mirrors the poly thing in that they don't wait for the current set of bombies to expire before spawning more. This wouldn't be so bad if the Über zombies didn't have the dreadful resurrection effect; so depending on your party or how much you derp, you can have literally 30+ electrical bombies attempting to explode all over you at any given time, and when they go down they are almost guaranteed to respawn from the Über zombie res effect.

I play on a pretty neat-stuff type computer. Better than average, can play all sorts of stuff with parties of friends and eat the least lag out of any of us by a longshot. Even my computer gets reduced to 0.2 FPS if this happens, which literally makes the situation unbeatable if you trip the bombies enough. Yea game-grumps, I know. So don't trip the bombies. Unfortunately, I happen to give a flying frank about the fact this can happen to begin with, this will destroy any player's ping, frames per second, and anything remotely comperable to fun all at once. This is game-breaking.

I understand challenge is a must for Danger Missions, it's the entire point of doing them. They have to challenge even the best equipped T3 players as much as possible, but "by any means deemed fit" is not always a good solution. Some combinations just lack balance, and moreover, THEY AREN'T FUN!

I'm pushing end game content here and trying out danger missions frequently, but running into stupid OP crap like this is just killing the game for me. I'm not saying nerf it, I'm saying distribute the challenge in a more fair sense. I like challenge, I like long fights, but I hate tiny rooms like the one in the MSPaint Fail I linked earlier. Mature Challenge is best, not something like that, that a 9 year old would make and call "super awesome challenge" by pushing borderline impossible depending on luck.

P.S. I hate greavers. Gorgos are cool though.
P.S.S. I hate people who say "get a blitz needle" to fight greavers even more. If you need to grab the single most OP weapon in game to fight an enemy properly, there's something fundamentally wrong with the enemy.

/Rant.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 10:51
#1
Narfle's picture
Narfle

Am I correct that you are doing all of these solo? There are a lot of players who can run DMs solo with no problem (I am not one of them), however I will say that higher level content like danger missions and shadow lairs are really intended to stress teamwork, and that sounds like what is ultimately giving you fits--you're not SUPPOSED to have so many baddies breathing down your neck because your teammates should be there to draw fire and thin the herd. C42 is a breeze (a stinky breeze, perhaps, but still a breeze) with a teammate alternating between shivermist and dark ret, for example. If you want to take on DMs without a party to back you up, that's fine, but blaming the level design--designed for a party of four--for your having trouble soloing feels a little disingenuous.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 11:10
#2
Mystrian's picture
Mystrian
Suggestions

Maybe practice the techniques "kiting", "shield bumping", or just work on your movement. Learn how monsters draw aggro.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 11:15
#3
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Only read the prime example and the stuff before it, mind you.

You really need to give bombing a go. Bombs are underrated and would totally immobilize zombies (in the case of a shiver), leaving them to burp about as you kill the Silkwings and the Howlitzers. (Turrets) Crowd control bombs are best against Bombies because you can effectively stop them without killing them, which ends up much better than killing them when you have a Dreadnaught (Uber Zombie) breathing down your back.

Swords and guns, though popular, are often not viable in hard levels with lots of enemies. This is what BAB is for!

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 11:16
#4
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

The danger missions are supposed to be unfair. And its not like you have to play them. There is a plethora of cheap and easy content for you to play through. There are perfectly good solutions to every single room you find in the danger missions as well. Your party, and I do say PARTY because you're crazy if you're soloing them expecting a cakewalk with no revives, should be able to cover these issues.

The room you described in MS paint is solved by drawing aggro on the enemies, pulling the "uber zombie" out of the room, and then KOing it. This leaves you with a large number of zombies, which can be slowly lured out of the room and killed. Trying to rush into rooms is almost never a good idea.

The ONLY danger mission that I genuinely have a problem with is C42, and even then, its just the minor complaint of the mission being "pay to win" via dragon scale mail. And even then, its still a perfectly fun level.

P.S. Gorgos are a bit on the easy side to be honest, I prefer fighting grievers. I love evil-ish AI.
P.S.S. Blitz needle isn't terrible for fighting grievers, but even so- I prefer magma driver+a flourish. But I can fight them with a blitz. Nor is blitz the single most OP weapon in the game- it has fault in that it makes you hold still. Its only when you get really good with it that you can utilize it's potential. I can accomplish more with a storm driver than with a blitz needle any day. Provided I'm fighting something like say, fiends and undead.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 11:24
#5
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances

Go play shadow lairs. You'll love the impossible traps and overcrowded rooms.
Plus there's the swarm seed slowing you down and making monsters immortal!

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 12:08
#6
Whitechocolatechip's picture
Whitechocolatechip
I'm bad at formatting posts,

I'm bad at formatting posts, and as such can't do quotes properly, however I'll dish individual responses.

@Narfire I do most runs solo but have attempted danger missions with organized, geared, and competant party members. Rooms like this still stand out though. Also, my complaint is more that requiring a competant party is kind of stupid, seeing how the rest of the game is solo-capable. Making this differ might be understandable, but I feel a party short of anything completely elite would really slow me down. I have a higher survival rate in-combat than anyone I've ever met, no joke. Parties, almost without exception, tend to lower the quality of overall performance.

@Bladeofgrass I am aware and moreover, practice those techniques quite frequently. I primarily use alchemers for the purpose of maximum mobility yet stopping power and lots of sub-tactics. Why shield bumping is an issue in that room is as stated - the enemies produce 2-3 ply walls in formation, which seems inevitable with more than a dozen monsters in a super tiny room all at once, making shield bumping totally useless, provided your shield can even tank enough hits to get through, as taking hits are inevitable.

@Autofire in key example, shivermist would be borderline useless since it's about guaranteed that the uber zombies will not be affected, then will probably charge their buddies out of ice. I know trojans do this and its quite annoying at times. My primary partner for danger missions specializes in bombs, so I have a fair amount of experience with watching them work.

@Fehzor Can't pull uber zombie out of the room. The entire room is locked up in that amazing area that is less than 12x12 in size, and that guy takes up about 1/4 of the room at any given time. Enemies would've been fine perhaps, but that outrageously tiny room you're trapped in is just impossible to work through, and even most teammates probably would get massacred by walling enemies, and since health scales with player number may not have the proper stopping power to make a difference, short of being meatshields, which in turn lowers the amount of healing supplies available to the party.

On a side note I somewhat mirror your tactic. You use magma driver and flourish, except I use DTB and volt, since I haven't 5 starred all my gear. I find the shock life-saving in open areas and the DTB fairly devastating, provided you land hits. Its small swing radius makes landing hits challenging if your target moves too much, but it's quick enough to compensate if you're accurate anyways.

Am I the only one completely non-impessed with fire proc? It seems shock dishes higher DPS in almost all scenarios... and yes, I know fire procs can stack, but not nearly enough to make a difference, especially since shock can lock enemies down and does an AOE/DOT combo for easy crowd control.

Blitz Needle is, in my opinion, the most OP item in game, probably almost tied with DA. The fact it deals as much damage as a callahan shot, 15 TIMES in a single power attack is pretty hilarious, and otherwise about 2/3 of that more like 12 or so on normal attacks. For DPS purposes it is completely broken, having more than 2x base stopping power on NEUTRAL compared to the volcanic pepperbox. It's just stupid disproportionate.

@Little-Juances sounds like good fun, but blowing 1600CE on a one-shot key is pretty damned awful, let alone 4 of them for a complete experience.

I do love how everyone has completely different suggestions though.

EDIT: Oh yea. Before someone else walks in and suggests teamwork teamwork teamwork. I still think teamwork isn't necessarily bad, but it should at least be consistent. The fact that a party, even a good one, can often lower efficiency by a considerable amount makes raiding most of the mission harder, then is magically required for one, and only one room in the raid is completely idiotic. Consistency is absolutely key, otherwise players end up feeling violated and cheated, like myself. This just feels broken to me because there is almost no consistency when it comes to these rooms.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 12:11
#7
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Whitechocolatechip

"Also, my complaint is more that requiring a competant party is kind of stupid, seeing how the rest of the game is solo-capable"

The rest of the game isn't a danger mission. If they make the level easy enough to solo without problems, then people who actually play in capable parties will find it boring.
Also, if you're not utilizing all three weapon classes, you should not complain about level setout and mission difficulty: What is hard for one class is easy for another. While you're complaining about "super dense enemy spawns" and "tiny rooms", another person is blowing the same room sky high with bombs.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 12:35
#8
Flowchart's picture
Flowchart

You know what makes soloing that room easier? Polaris spam. Go ahead, nobody's there to see you, although you might feel a bit dirty afterwards.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 12:51
#9
Neodasus's picture
Neodasus
Can't grasp the big picture

Can't grasp the big picture when playing a certain room?

gg (get good)

Can't focus on 30 instances at once?

gg (get good)

Can't understand what priority kills are?

gg (get good)

Look man I get you, I'm a designer myself. I understand how you feel but just know that you are probably not the intended audience for this game. To be fair, I'll answer every complaint you have. On LoA on the 2nd floor the way to defeat it is by prioritizing the Howlitzers and destroying the Slags first. Kill order is essential, a good player should be able to prioritize kills on the fly. Maybe your timing is off or maybe you are under-equipped. The fact that you're using Dread Skelly is a dead giveaway that you are using low tier armor. Dread Skelly was horribly designed anyway so why take armor that is inherently bad and use it in a level you consider to be inherently bad? OOO designed that last room to see how the player prioritizes mobs. The smaller slags will keep respawning, simply focus on the ones that spawned beforehand. I never use guns, so this should be easier for you. For HoI, naturally a gunner like you will have problems with fiends--so I won't touch this one. C42 is difficult for even me, as the poison blobs put me in a soft-lock when I shield--so learning not to shield when blobbed has to become 2nd nature. Otherwise you will end up being caught on fire, and so it's literally a pick-your-poison situation. Once again though, this stage tests how you can prioritize kills. Notice hwo most rooms require you to kill gremlins to end the room rather than focusing on the respawning jellies.

You and I are different, as a sword/bomber I have to pay attention to every instance and time things perfectly. This in itself is also a problem though, because nobody should have my level of skill to be able to complete the Danger Missions by themselves. This proves that the skill floor is incredibly high in this game, while the skill floor is too low.

Besides, nobody cares about the solo gamer anymore. They WANT you to find a competent party. They WANT to promote party roles in the future. You should hold off any reservations you have for now until they implement Battle Sprites. If you really are a game designer, then you should know that the perspective of a designer with information from R&D has a better perspective than that of a player. They know what they're doing, and nerfing monsters now would just cause a power creep that would spiral (see what I did there) out of control thanks to all these new mechanics and features. Think abotu things from their perspective--how do you promote party roles? How do you get players to play the game the way you intended?

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 17:33
#10
Noomad's picture
Noomad
Please OOO, if you're reading

Please OOO, if you're reading this, don't nerf the Danger Mission content. It's really the last thing I find fun, running with my guildmates.

As it was mentioned in the thread earlier, OP, this is an MMO, it stresses working with others by nature. Yes, the rest of the game is pretty soloable, but without content that needs parties, the game really falls through.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 18:33
#11
Neodasus's picture
Neodasus
I can tell you right now

I can tell you right now without a shadow of a doubt, they will most likely never nerf again after Battle Sprites.

Ever.

They are smart, they know not to do that.

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 18:48
#12
Zephyrgon's picture
Zephyrgon
So the game is getting more difficult?

Good

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 18:59
#13
Atacii
...

Legend of Almire: The last wave is mostly tedious, but kind of hard. As for the room you're referring to, the crusaders only spawn if you provoke them. And I'm pretty sure you should have already killed them before the dreadnought( uber zombie) spawn.

After you get used to crusaders this mission is easy, solo or otherwise.

Heart of Ice: I never got why people had trouble with grievers and I gun most of the time. Pretty sure the 2x3 grid room is always included. Not a huge fan of that one as hunting down the last enemy in each wave can get tedious. But it is a fresh design.

If I die here, it's always on one of the ice traps. The timing is kinda tight on those and I'm impatient. -.-

Compound 42: With proper gear it's mindlessly easy. Otherwise I imagine it can be a deathtrap at times as it's not that uncommon for much of the floor to be covered in fire. Wish they would tone down the flaming slime tiles and add more monsters.

Ghost in the Machine: I like the first level, but the second is garbage. Infinite spawning bombies means one troll/noob can single-handedly ruin the mission. The right arena makes the player repeatedly lure zombies out of corners through storm wisps...lame. And then there's the boss, which has you sitting in a corner 90% of the time. Yeah, not a big fan of this one.

tl;dr Some of the missions could be improved, but there is no need for nerfs. Seriously.

Wed, 05/15/2013 - 04:35
#14
Leekcoco's picture
Leekcoco
It's all about doing the runs

It's all about doing the runs with a decent party until you all learn how to deal with each arena and mob. There are tricks and strategies for all of them and once you do it enough times everything is manageable. But, if you're persistent on running it alone it's time to craft a Shivermist Buster or Stagger Storm. These are probably a few of the last challenges left in the game, it would be a shame to nerf it all.

I run the Danger Missions every night with guildies. If you ever need help, I could lend a hand. (PS. For that room with the respawning bombies in GitM, just stay on the bottom half and all is dandy.)

Wed, 05/15/2013 - 06:09
#15
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

"Now what I bumped into 30 min ago that made this post mandatory, was an insanely tiny room carrying 4 Almirian guards, 2 skull turrets, 5-7 zombies, fire, one Über zombie, and 3 silkwings all at once. "

Insanely tiny room? For bombs, there is no difference between one enemy and one thousand.

Wed, 05/15/2013 - 07:40
#16
Misten's picture
Misten
Pretty sure the client will

Pretty sure the client will lag/freeze to death for spawning one thousand enemies

Wed, 05/15/2013 - 07:45
#17
Asukalan's picture
Asukalan
So, you get killed and you

So, you get killed and you blame bad map design?

How about.... YOU JUST SUCK?

Not only because you died but also because you fail to take lesson from this and instead you whine on forum like a little one.

Also, from homepage of SK:

"Now they must work together to survive on a journey that will take them to the very core of the world."
"The Clockworks offer challenges that are best tackled with friends."

About that "OMgz i soloed all stuff but not this one, nerf it its too hard, i solo everything so i have to solo this too, blahablabhla"

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