Title.
Can you remove bomb radiuses now that every player is a button away from avoiding bombs?
-1
No. Players have a hard time playing vs 5 instances at once, I'm not sure they could handle this. I think they would need some kind of visual indicator of detonation time. The knowledge required to even stand a ghost of a chance vs a bomber without the radius for timing is immense. Too much of a dependency on knowledge to compete in the lockdown metagame. Hopefully denied.
-1
I'd have to disagree with this one as well. The radius' on bombs are still helpful, especially in determining if a bomb is your teammates or enemies. Why remove something that's an important visual indicator to most of us?
@Neodasus
As of right now the only bombs worth anything in LD are status bombs. A bomber should be able to provide support in more ways than laying a cloud to run around in.
Right now bombers get worked by anyone with a gun and a striker just has to sit and watch the drop, swoop, swing, retreat, repeat.
I think you are over thinking the whole thing. Memorizing detonation times would not be needed to combat a no-radius bomber.
The only time it would come into play really is when a bomber drops during a fight involving multiple people from both sides. Instead of fighting away and just walking outside the white circle when it appears they would either have to actually pay some focus to the bomber involved to note where/when they drop or decide to dispatch him first to negate the chance of catching a Nitro mid swing.
@Neodasus
I don't get indicators before someone hits me with a sword or fires a gun at me. Why should bombers be any different?
@Flaame
The visual indicator will remain for yourself and teammates, of course. Why wouldn't it? Think for once.
Actually you do. They're called frames :)
Actually you do. They're called frames :)
Swordsmen and Gunners don't have 5 seconds of attack animation frames before they deal damage.
If you can't analyze frame data then why complain? You're obviously at a disadvantage anyway.
@Neodasus
Dude you can't register individual frames in real time especially not like you can register a big white circle with a growing smaller circle inside it.
Honestly, I would love to hear how you implement your "Frame Data Analysis" into realtime gameplay, but that's a different thread.
Again man, you are over thinking this. Let's keep this on track.
Would removing the radius turn bombers into OP LD Gods? No. You can still sit back and gun. You can still swoop, swing, retreat, repeat. All the same tactics would still work.
Would removing the radius force players to respect bombers more from a dmg standpoint and add more ways to offer support without spamming status bombs? Absolutely! Dropping a dmg bomb no longer is just a game of step over the white line. It's a game of pay attention or get dropped by the support bomber laying it down while his strikers go to work.
And if you're so great at frame analysis, why do you need a big circle indicating where bombs are?
This is a pretty interesting issue. On the one hand, making the radius invisible to enemies would certainly make bombs more dangerous, and might make it easier to hit people with them. However, I think the radius itself implies a threat - "Don't step here, there's a burst of damage in this area sometime soon!" - which acts as a deterrent for enemies (at least, enemies who aren't familiar with just how weak that threat is). Also, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that change, given that both lag and the game's camera angle might hide the bomb's presence from me until it's too late to react to it. And boy, oh boy, do I hate getting hit by things I couldn't see coming.
I'm wondering how bombs might be in Lockdown if enemies could still see the radius, but not the filling circle in the middle that would indicate when it would go off. You could still know if the bomb was enemy / friendly when you see the bomb go down, but rushing in through the radius may be a less appealing option when you don't really know when the bomb would go off. In my view, this would pretty much be a buff to a blast-type bomb's area-denial capabilities - that threat of damage - more than anything. What do you think of this, guys?
But if you leave it in, I'll have a good time destroying blast bombers with dash until it gets changed. :)
P.S. opposite idea to Nordic: You can see the fuse expanding, but not the edge. So you know a bomb is going off, but you don't know exactly how far to run or when it will go off.
If you REALLY must keep the radius, only let the opposing team see either the timer OR the radius.
It would give a reason to use bombs in LD
If this gets in you will see me in LD as full bomber...
Right now there is no point for Nitronomes or DR... only to hold points *sigh*
You WILL have different queue, like a bomb on the ground, if you can perceive frames before swordsman hit and gunner shoots, you WILL be able to see the bomb on the ground and move away from it
No. Players have a hard time playing vs 5 instances at once, I'm not sure they could handle this. I think they would need some kind of visual indicator of detonation time. The knowledge required to even stand a ghost of a chance vs a bomber without the radius for timing is immense. Too much of a dependency on knowledge to compete in the lockdown metagame. Hopefully denied.
Saying this
Then after this
If you can't analyze frame data then why complain? You're obviously at a disadvantage anyway.
You are just hypocrite who thinks he always right...
+1 for Blast Radii gone
Raise skill level
Different queue for people who thinks the blast radii is the ONLY queue for bombs (you have a frame before they burst BTW neodasus :D)
Dash in so people WILL be able to move out of the way and have a counter for it
I don't see why not
I like Klipik's idea, it's actually really smart and I feel ashamed I didn't think of it first.
I can understand showing the fuse/bomb radius for gremmy demos in the CW, but this has always bothered me in LD. I think Kilpik's idea is a very fair middle ground between the current setup and totally eliminating the radius--though I wouldn't be opposed to totally eliminating the radius either ;)
@Hexzyle
I'm talking about others that can't. What's the point of giving bombers an advantage that only the smallest percentage of players can overcome? What is a sword user to do vs a pure bomber if he can't time his attacks? Bombers were never meant to be damage dealers, they were meant to control CPs with haze bombs and in LARGE skirmishes (not 1v1) provide support with bombs such as the Nitronome and the DBB. Bombers are not designed for solo play. They were designed to make things easier for their teammates, to give the enemy an extra instance to pay attention to. If you're having trouble solo'ing a point by yourself and end up being decimated by a lone swordie or gunner then you only have yourself to blame for taking a crowd-control style of play into a 1v1 situtation.
@Dbltap
Back when I was in Knightmare I had suggested that we do some testing on frame data and how it interacts with asi. We did this for about three weeks with all of the weapons considered 'meta' at the time. Yes, it sounds difficult to analyze frame data in real time but that is what I did when I was 13 at EVO(Did this for three years until I quit pro gaming to focus on school. Picked it up again freshman year in college). I've been doing this for nearly 10 years so I wouldn't have a problem adapting, but it's not a good idea for the common player.
And by, "the smallest percentage of players can overcome," you mean, "every player," since everyone will have dash and will be temporarily invincible.
YODO into the bomber and combo them, not getting shocked or stunned until afterward. Strikers can already do this with boost, and now everyone can do it with dash.
Narfle before I continue, do you have access to the test server?
Well, that would explain all the testing feedback I've already posted.
derp
well instead of arguing lockdown theory why not play a game of lockdown later in the afternoon?
Who's arguing theory? This has already happened to me playing LD on the test server, and I've already done it to other people--5 tiles of movement plus limited invincibility is way more than enough to pull it off. Just like with a striker boosting into a bomb cloud there is a certain amount of luck based on when the status ticks occur, but it still works. YODO has nothing to do with it.
I'm talking about others that can't. What's the point of giving bombers an advantage that only the smallest percentage of players can overcome?
So was I, until you changed the target of the argument (to yourself) after I created a point that you couldn't counter. Lesser players aren't given enormous warnings before a sword is swung or a gun is fired, so why do they get such a large advantage over bombers?
@neo: I am a guardian bomber. I generally run with two bombs plus a support weapon.
@hex: +1
@Narfle
Do you use a flourish/btb as your sidearm? Even the most notable gunners and bombers such has Blueflood and Roarr use them in close quarters.
I'll have to tell Blue you called him 'most notable,' he'll get a kick out of that. You're asking me if I use a flourish in close quarters? Sometimes. But as with my previous example of strikers boosting into a bomb cloud, and catching bombers with dash before getting hit by a status, it's easier and more effective to use a heavy sword.
@Neodasus
So what you're saying is that bombers aren't to be dmg dealers; rather, they are supposed to spam status bombs and hold points... NO! That is not what bombers are "supposed" to be, that is what bombers HAVE to be given the constraints placed upon them by the game.
You seem to think that a purely sword player would be unable to deal with an elite bomber without the radius being shown.... If the sword equipped player is too weak or too stupid to deal with a bomber unless they have a visual cue of the blast radius and detonation timer then they should move on and look to fight another player or go to another point.
A bomber will never be able to chase someone down and kill them. Seriously if a pure bomber is working you over then you can disengage as soon as you have low health unlike when a striker wears you down then when you try to escape he chases you down and finishes the job. Sword equipped players will still maintain their dmg dominance.
@Klipik & Nordic-Oten
What you two brought to the table made me stop and think for a moment, but after mulling it over I don't think some pseudo-radius compromise is a good idea.
Getting hit from off screen is just part of playing SK. There is no precursor to a brandish line or an alchemer line charge so why should a bomb be any different?
Bottom line, a bomber will never be an OP dmg producer. They are too easy to evade, with or without AoE indicators their attacks are too slow.
Bombers will never be able bring the fight to you like a gunner or swordsmen can so let's remove the radius and let them play.
@Dbltap
You can't throw bombs. They were designed for a turtle style of play.
Don't you use a gun as a sidearm? You can easily counter bombs, radius display or not, using guns.
Yeah my point exactly... With or without an AoE marker, bombers are slow.
Thus, far you have continued to take this thread off topic all the while contributing nothing to the discussion. Throwing bombs? Um okay thanks for the post... Whatever man.
Anyway I know where you stand and you know where I stand. Let's see what the rest of the community thinks without you making statements or asking questions that add nothing to the thread.
Well it's not up to me whether it gets done or not. I don't think it will ever happen though, so I really hope you can make your case stronger than what it is now.
don't be hatin on nitronome! Thing is beast for making people back the eff up. I'm gona go use mine right now :p
+1
thought this should happen even before Dash was in LD. too easy for a striker to take down a bomber by looking at radius + timer...
with Dash in the game, it's more like +100
Otherwise we may be looking at the death of bombers in LD as we know it :(
I haven't done much bombing on the test server, how has it been going for you bombers? Looks like it's gotten tougher/less fun :/
bombers, forever unloved...
What if all they do is remove the edges and invert the animation? You'll see a red circle shrinking then boom.
The information will still be there but it won't be so explicit.
Players will only get a warning, it's upon them to judge the exact radius. Adds a tiny layer of skills.
I really like how Neodasus just doesn't answer to people he cannot answer
from Hexzyle
I don't get indicators before someone hits me with a sword or fires a gun at me. Why should bombers be any different?
answer from Neo
Actually you do. They're called frames :)
From me:
+1 for Blast Radii gone
Raise skill level
Different queue for people who thinks the blast radii is the ONLY queue for bombs (you have a frame before they burst BTW neodasus :D)
Dash in so people WILL be able to move out of the way and have a counter for it
I don't see why not
So a frame warning isn't good enough but an inverted radii animation is good enough?
Go figure...
You don't want to die to bomber, you fear them, I can see it in your eyes...
from Hexzyle
I don't get indicators before someone hits me with a sword or fires a gun at me. Why should bombers be any different?
answer from Neo
Actually you do. They're called frames :)
Neo contradicting himself:
HexZyle: And if you're so great at frame analysis, why do you need a big circle indicating where bombs are?
Neo: I'm talking about others that can't.
"I really like how Neodasus just doesn't answer to people he cannot answer"
It's a good quality. A lot of people will just argue to the ends of the earth (sometimes I do that... I think...) even if they don't have a point to make. It means he's either satisfied with how a debate has gone, or he no longer thinks he can change the mind of the other person.
Guys don't make this thread into a toxic environment thanks. There's a reason I don't respond to certain posts and you just proved it. Thank you.
EDIT: I was referring to the frames made when starting the action of shooting and the short animation during reload--and the action of starting the sword animation and the end of the swing. I wasn't referring to bomb frames actually.
I'm not from the test server or anything... but in case you don't know
If you observe sword damage is dealt BEFORE the animation even starts (at least, barely a second after you click)
A gun bullet is fired like what, 0.3 seconds after clicking?
A bomb takes like what, over a second to detonate?
Frames have no point in your argument here...
With that short delay and factoring players with ping in...
When's the last time someone bothered to think from the perspective of someone with ping? Sure, "go predict and dodge. If you can't do that, too bad for you" It's not as easy as it looks...
"If you observe sword damage is dealt BEFORE the animation even starts"
I would like to point, for the sake of keeping facts straight, that this is false. Try using a Sudaruska sometime.
(at least, barely a second after you click) I mean like 0.1-0.4 seconds-ish.
I have ping, so every slash I make, the damage is always delayed. The observance I made is from watching all the Gran Fausts and Brandishes being used in lockdown. I apologise if this is false, but the point that it is still nowhere near the time before a bomb blows up still stands.
Ok this is coming from a pure bomber. I dont use any sidearms nor do I own any, exept what you get from the DLC. Ive pure bombed since I started playing this game a little of a year ago. In LD, I get kited on by people using guns and the swordies just dash and slash. You have got to be a moron to not be able to judge the timing of a bombers bomb detonation. Our only saving grace is attack patterns. Swordies will always dash and slash or poke. Gunners will always kite. Thats how we get kills or hold off areas. By mixing up bombs with different fuses you can pretty much throw off a few swordies. But weaving in and out of gunners gunfire is how you take down a gunner. They pretty much have reduced movement speed while shooting. Luckily its slower than our charged walk speed. Blast radius is the only thing we have going for us. Now I would like to be able to throw bombs like the gremlins or be able to just drop full charged bombs but I can tell that probably wont happen. Again, the bomber class is the only class that is actually balanced. Gunners and swordies are broken. Either fix the broken classes or break the bomber class in order to achieve some sort of balance.
I've always thought it was dumb enemy players could see the radius.