Spiral Knights - Alternate path to cutters and caliburs: A question...

Alternate path to cutters and caliburs: A question...

20 replies [Last post]

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:54

Qwao

I mean alternate path as in the alternate to the mainstream Dread Venom Striker and Leviathan Blade paths respectively to title, by the way.

So basically: Myths I need to bust about Wild Hunting Blade, Hunting Blade, and the Cold Iron swords. These are either personal or community myths.

Myth: Dread Venom Striker is completely superior to Wild Hunting Blade with damage maximum in every way.
The question(s): Does Wild Hunting Blade's charge interrupt enemies? I know Dread Venom Striker's doesn't to some extent. If so, is it on the final giant wolver slash or during the first 4/8 hits? Is it to all family types or just wolvers/gremlins etc?
Outcome: If answer to question is yes, WHB is more viable for a player who likes to mix charges with combos.

Myth: (From the wiki, sword guide)"Also, the Wild Hunting Blade has more range, since the phantasmal Wolvers bite in front of the blade, not behind as in the Dread Venom Striker"
The question(s): Self explanatory: True or False? Does ping delaying animations have something to do with it?
Outcome: Self explanatory

Myth: Cold Iron Vanquisher/Sword has less knockback than Leviathan Blade lines on the charge.
The question(s): How much/little exactly is less knockback? Can someone upload/link a video to actually demonstrate how much is "less" knockback?
Outcome: Self explanatory

Myth: I recently made Hunting Blade (planning to go to WHB) but noticed that its swings felt slower than Dread Venom Striker (tested with no asi) and its charge time felt longer than DVS (both ctr med).
The question(s): Is Hunting Blade really slower than DVS (slash/charge or both)? If so, does WHB have a speed boost to match DVS?
Outcome: If first question is yes, second question no, then Dread Venom Striker is superior in terms of speed. If both questions are yes, then there is incentive to upgrade Hunting Blade to WHB (aside from aesthetic reasons/charge reason outlined above). If first question is no (therefore ruling out the second), then viability of both swords depends on charge.

What I hope to get out of this: I plan on collecting (most) weapons so actual usage doesn't really matter. I already have BTB, all four 5* brandishes, DA/GF so I'm pretty much done for actual combat gear. I just want to actually find out these because interesting news- I mean it's not everyday someone told you "Hey did you know WHB charge can actually interrupt enemies?" Prove me wrong or otherwise I'm fine, I don't need real statistics, just some reliable opinions. Other things: Depending on if I can bust this whole CIV charge "myth" I want to make levi before CIV if it's busted, or I'll have to make a CIV myself to test stuff out.

Other notes: Hunting Blade/DVS observation made on D25 of FSC against slags. DVS has damage maximum against undead and vhigh against all at level 10 with no asi. Hunting blade was at level 4 with a ctr med UV and no asi.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:04

Bopp

answers

Most of these are thoroughly treated in my detailed sword guide. You can also search Google for things like "spiral knights forum WHB DVS" to see many threads.

* Yes, WHB's charge does interrupt monsters more often than DVS' charge.

* No, WHB does not have greater range than DVS. My testing against explosive blocks in the ATH suggests that they have the same range.

* It would be nice to quantify the charge knockback of CIV vs. Leviathan (in terms of tiles, probably), but it's not crucial. The key point is that CIV's charge is more likely to land on a single monster multiple times. To land multiple hits with the Leviathan charge, the monster must be stationary, pinned in a corner, or something like that.

* Yes, the Lancer Knightz data (quoted in my sword guide) indicate that WHB is slightly slower than DVS in both regular and charge attacks.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:19

Qwao

Fast reply o.O

A few things to throw out there.

Point 3: To land multiple hits with the Leviathan charge, the monster must be stationary, pinned in a corner, or something like that. That statement makes me feel great, because I happen to know a tactic that allows you to hit the enemy up to twice stationary or otherwise at least most of the time if aimed well. I wanted to make a video about it, but I didn't know how the CIV actually fared so I was holding back on that. Depending on which I'll see.

Aside, nice to know these little itty bits of information. While we're at it, I'll just throw out a couple more fun facts.

Blitz Needle bullets deal the same damage to neutral enemies as Argent Peacemaker or Sentenza save for different mechanics.
Against neutral enemies, Supernova's expanded shots deal more damage than Polaris's. Does not apply to charge or small shots.
For whichever weird reason, holding a cursed weapon and performing a shield bash will cause self damage.

My Gran Faust loves me and does not seem to like inflicting self curse.

P.S Did not know you could use google to search for threads on SK forums. :o

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:51

Bopp

great

I happen to know a tactic that allows you to hit the enemy up to twice stationary or otherwise

Please do elaborate on your Leviathan charge tactic. I tend to use Fang of Vog, when I'm in the mood for such things. So I'm unsurprised but interested when there's something new to learn about Leviathan.

See http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/75898 for many more such examples.

P.S Did not know you could use google to search for threads on SK forums. :o

It's far better than using the SK forums built-in search. If you know some Google search query syntax, then you can do even better.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:59

Qwao

I am really curious if you guys bookmark these threads and save it in the "big list of useful stuff" or something. :P

Please do elaborate on your Leviathan charge tactic. It's really hard to explain it without going into graphical detail or actually demonstrating it. I'll try to put up the video over the next few days (kinda busy atm :d), but something about it from the best I can put into words is that you aim somewhere along the tip of your blade when you are holding it in charge position (if your knight is facing north it'd be somewhere along the bottom left corner of your knight) I tend to knock enemies into oblivion when aiming this way with my Lionheart blade, hitting up to twice, but sometimes with a bit of misaim and getting out of range you only hit once. With enough practice it works *most* of the time though.

Regarding Fang of Vog, it hits up to four times so I'm not really sure the same mechanics apply to it, I do know that you tend to hit more when going to contact point blank range and using it to the right of an enemy. Something like that. What I really hate is that the shufflebots in training hall die too quickly for any testing to be done proper, so you always have to go to the clockworks (maybe bring a few friends to increase hp) so enemies can actually tank the hits.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:32

Batabii

DVS and Lev are mainstream!? What happened to Divine Avenger and BTB and the Brandish line?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:21

Qwao

DVS and Levi are arguably the mainstream variants when compared to their alternate counterparts.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:49

Zeddy

I can confirm WHB's charge having more interruption than DVS. It's not a very large amount of interruption, I don't feel like I can rely on it for anything.

I can also confirm WHB being slower than DVS in both the charge and the combo.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 15:35

Batabii

Oh well that's simple, CIV is pretty much worthless compared to any elemental sword in the game (even fang of vog, which has virtually the same charge attack with the added benefit/risk of fire) and WHB is generally seen as the same in respect to piercing, though I've been hearing praises of its interrupting qualities.

Basically, any normal-damage weapon with "Damage bonus vs [family]" is inferior to a "typed" weapon. I'm pretty sure even, for example, Damage Bonus vs Gremlin MAXIMUM won't do as much as just a shadow weapon of the same base stats, in addition to being good against slimes.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 23:07

Qwez

That Calibur charge attack technique works

I can testify to the effectiveness of that, but it's a little weird to describe. Also, you get extra hits if a jelly is about to attack and you repel the jelly as it jumps at you.

The problem with open ground, is that you tend to push the enemy away before you can spin around for the next pass. The bottom left corner-ish of the player is a sweetspot that doesn't push the enemy away before the next pass, allowing for another hit. This doesn't work on any other sides of the player. I think that this means that the Calibur charge attack starts in the bottom left of the player then completes one revolution instantaneously and slows down after a revolution for another spin (or two?).

FoV having 4 hit max is probably due to slower swing speed allowing for more hits on target during the slower charge attack.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 00:58

#10

Qwao

@Qwez While there are certain theories as to why the calibur charge works that way there are a couple things to note

1. It is always the most accurate when you are looking at others performing it. Why you ask? Because what you see is basically the pure information the server sends to your client (In most cases: Troika line charges are somewhat glitchy(?)), and thus will never be affected by ping/lag/latency. I notice most sword damage occurs barely a split second after swinging for most swords, but it could be a trick of the eye. In this aspect I doubt the calibur charge swing starts at that area.

2. In the same aspect as outlined above, why then is the Calibur charge able to hit thrice against stationary enemies in front of you (Use autotarget for this one: Human judgement will never be perfect as computer sensing in this matter), but when aiming in the said angle it hits twice? Why in this regard do enemies hit from the front get knocked away, but never (rarely) up to twice unless blocked by another enemy or knocked into a corner? Then why if you lock said enemy into a corner, even if it's a huge lumber they rarely even get hit thrice?

3. Following above, I have triple hit a Trojan with the charge before, albeit rarely. I think there's something up with mechanics here.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 08:03

#11

Krakob

CIV charge has lower knockback than Levi, it's true. 1½ tile less against the shufflebots of GTH. If you wonder anything about Levi and CIV, consult this document.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 15:58

#12

Qwao

Krakob, you broke the link!

I just manually went there anyway. :P

But honestly I feel like there's not much there that applies to me :\ I know for a fact that it does less damage (because there's actually youtube videos demonstrating that) and with damage maximum the bonus is honestly for naught.

I'm just really curious about the knockback on the charge, that's all.

@Bopp now I have a couple of questions.

Does the Flamberge really not do fire on normal slashes? I could've sworn I have been lit on fire before in Lockdown from a Flamberge user.

EDIT: From the wiki:The Phantasmal Snarbolax does its own damage seperate from the spikes. (lol small typo from wiki) Is this true regarding Barbarous Thorn Blade?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 15:12

#13

Bopp

don't think so

It's possible that my sword guide contains a mistake, but my recollection and the Furious Flamberge wiki page both indicate no fire on regular attacks.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 18:53

#14

Bopp

update

I've just tested Furious Flamberge again. Its first stroke occasionally sets monsters on fire. Presumably the second stroke also has a chance. I'll update the wiki. Thanks for motivating me to check this.

I've just tested Barbarous Thorn Blade's charge again. I can't verify whether the snarbolax causes damage --- there are too many numbers flying around. If it does, then it's projectile-level damage, not sword-stroke-level damage. So it doesn't increase the damage of the attack very much.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:20

#15

Qwao

I just tested BTB's charge, and yes I notice many stacked numbers from the point of impact of the Snarbolax, projectile's damage as well. Whereas when I allow a single-few projectiles to hit a training bag from the Guild training hall (by aiming to the side and allowing the side of the cone to hit) it only does a few numbers. I think the snarbolax itself might actually do damage, we'll need a few others to test it.

Actually regarding "doesn't increase the damage of the attack very much" I actually find that, assuming that snarbolax hits as well, it practically doubles projectile damage, allowing me to one-two shot a devilite with a single charge.

EDIT: Just tested again. Can't really tell if the stacked damage might be from the aoe impact of the barbs beside it or if it's the snarbolax. Further testing indicates that only 6 barbs seems to be fired from my perspective, so perhaps it does not do damage but rather the aoe of the side barbs might be causing it.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:19

#16

Bopp

I don't understand

There are eight thorn projectiles. If the snarbolax is essentially a ninth projectile of the same damage, then I don't see how it increases projectile damage by more than 12.5%.

Are you talking about a situation in which only the center thorn hits an enemy? Therefore, by having another projectile in the center, you double the projectile damage emitted at the center of the attack?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:42

#17

Qwao

Yes, I mean that, if only the center thorn hits. Although from testing I don't seem to see 8 projectiles? Weird.

EDIT: Tested out with my guildmate (Thanks Produkt), recorded and played it back in slow motion, the charge fires 7 projectiles.

EDIT2: I discovered some really interesting projectile patterns with the Snarble barb and Barbarous Thorn Blade- they have a fixed angle at which they are fired out, and Snarble barb, firing only 5, lacks 2 of these barbs, resulting in a peculiar 3 center barbs followed by a gap to either side and finally the last two barbs, one on each side of the furthest angle.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:34

#18

Qwez

I believe I have an explanation for 3 hits

You know how DA charge fails when your back is to a wall because the position of the projectile moves into the wall because the game predicts you will move backwards a step, but there's a wall in the way and the projectile thus immediately hits the wall.

I believe that for Caliburs, you're attempting to move forwards into the enemy but fail, and the spin attack occurs within the enemy (because that's the space where you are projected to be), allowing the Calibur to hit whenever possible which is a max of 3 times for Caliburs, or 4 times with FoV.

Hitting enemies 3 times with Calibur is not rare, just Auto-Target-Calibur-charge puppies or polyps when touching them and you will always get 3 hits.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:44

#19

Qwao

I meant with a Trojan, who is affected by knockback. Even more amazing was I had autotarget off when I last remembered hitting the trojan with a charge; I think the trojan was walking at the same time while focused on another player.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:45

#20

Bopp

thanks, partly

Qwez, your second paragraph is interesting to think about. (The material in your third paragraph is less interesting --- for example, already covered in post #1 above.)

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Alternate path to cutters and caliburs: A question...