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A [Hopefully agreeable] nerf to the brandish.

24 replies [Last post]
Sun, 06/02/2013 - 12:46
Diamondshreddie's picture
Diamondshreddie

So, the problem right now with the brandish is that ... well, it is the master of all trades, and surpassed by none. In other words, it is just too damn good. As much as I love seeing the carnage as my lovely teammates cast their charges into the stormy vortex of death I have carefully planted, I cannot deny the fact that the sword needs a bit of a change.

Now, my idea here is to compose a change that does not harm the sword's incredible potential, but adds a bit of risk for such a high reward. I will list each aspect of the sword's mechanics, and the changes I see need change, in my opinion.

-Normal swings: Normal swings for brandishes should deal pure elemental, with a small reduction in base damage, Save for nightblade which should keep it's normal split (for it deals no status) but undergo the same damage reduction.

-Charge speed: Quick, and should be left as such. Though the speed at which you walk should be reduced to that of a mist bomb.

-Charge attack: Add in a bit of wind-up to the charge initiation, much like the troika charge has. This adds a phase of stationary vulnerability when executing a charge. To clarify, this delay won't be enough to let a zombie jump at you, but may let in the likes of an oiler, or lumber attack. As for the rest of the charge, the status proc, damage, and mechanics should be left untouched.

I hope that this is an agreeable idea, such that the sword is still badass powerful, but not ridiculously overpowered.

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 12:54
#1
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

I disagree, partially. The only nerf Brandishs need is some sort of drawback for their charge attack, likely in the form of slower execution, like you've outlined. It needs to be fairly dramatic.

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 13:01
#2
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances

If the problem is in the charge, why tweak the normal swings?
Combuster deals fire on charge, but it's regular swings are the same as an Acheron.

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 13:08
#3
Diamondshreddie's picture
Diamondshreddie
Thanks for the input

I can see what you mean, though my idea is to further implement the aspect of high risk high reward, by focusing on the brandish being made mostly for the charge, and in turn the regular attack would be less reliable.

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 14:04
#4
Kimahsonite's picture
Kimahsonite
+1

I've always been annoyed that you get a massive speed reduction while you charge a Divine Avenger and there's no such thing for brandishes so it's much more effective to hold a charge and unleash it at the first enemy you see without being pig-slow. :(

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 15:18
#5
Klipik's picture
Klipik

I don't think Brandishes are supposed to be high risk, high reward. I see/use them as a good all-around utility weapon, like the Leviathan Blade used to be. The only problem is... they're too good at everything. Maybe the pattern of the charge's explosions could be changed, to be more of a fan-shaped thing instead of a line?

Like this?

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 15:19
#6
Klipik's picture
Klipik

Apparently I thought double-clicking the save button was a good idea. >_>

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 15:32
#7
Dreathuxy's picture
Dreathuxy
...

You don't have to use brandishes. Haven't you guys ever heard of the Hammer?!?!?

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 15:34
#8
Klipik's picture
Klipik

You mean that thing that has a horrible tendency to fling you into crowds of slags and shadowfire?

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 15:41
#9
Dreathuxy's picture
Dreathuxy
...

Turn off AA.

Sun, 06/02/2013 - 15:56
#10
Diamondshreddie's picture
Diamondshreddie
Good input

Good and valid input, however this is just a suggestion. It's nice to add on with your own ideas and concepts, but mostly i was looking to see how others agree and disagree with the points stated originally. Maybe one day in the near future, these kinds of organized suggestions may aid in the progression of overall balance being set in Spiral Knights.

But again, thank you everyone for your thoughts.

Mon, 06/03/2013 - 12:23
#11
Apophis-Set-Two's picture
Apophis-Set-Two
:O

@Dreath Why would I use the hammer if I have a brandish? That's like driving a Prius when I have a Ferrari sitting in my garage. Sure, you can take it out for a run or two if you feel peckish, but overall brandish is a weapon used much more than hammer. Also, turning off AA does not stop the charging motion of WRH, unless you shield cancel, which is what I do with hammer.
Also. I've talked with a few people in game. Get the stick out of your @$$, and stop trying to degrade everyone's values by stating your opinions as if they were obvious facts. All the posts I've seen you shoot around forums have nothing to do with the original post's function. They're always stating one of your opinions, or telling the creator of the thread to do something else. The whole point of having a suggestions forum is so members of the community, like Diamond, have the ability of asking everyone in the community a question/their opinion on a certain aspect of the game. The threads are not asking for advice on what they should do specifically, they're just asking about the general opinion on a potential issue.
@Diamond I see what you mean about the charge, but is it really that much more OP than an ASI VH Divine Avenger? Basically, the brandish line is focused on a concentrated path of destruction in a certain direction. A DA is focused on a wider berth of slightly less destruction, although more knockback. The voltedge and the glacius already have their own weakness in the charge. Say I use the charge on a group of slags. If i am too close, they will still be able to hit me, as when they get shocked/frozen they do not ride the charge blasts back, but they instead stay in place, and are still able to attack. Combuster pushes back even when it sets on fire, so that is something I would suggest the devs change to when a monster is set on fire, they stay in place for around the same time as when an enemy gets shocked.
@Klipik :L That charge... XD Wouldn't that be a bit OP? The real weakness of a brandish is the lack of width to its attacks, significantly less than a heavy weapon. Your charge essentially covers up that little chink in the armor and turns the brandish into a weapon of mass destruction. Not saying I wouldn't enjoy that, but... XD

tl;dr
Dreath, opinions are opinions, not things everyone SHOULD do. Everyone has their own playing style.
Diamond, good suggestions on the brandish line, but the point of choosing a brandish over a heavy sword is the concentrated burst of attack power.
Klipik, your charge covers the brandish's only weakness, the lack of width to the attack. That's what a DA is for XD

Mon, 06/03/2013 - 13:05
#12
Klipik's picture
Klipik

It covers up the weakness and gets rid of the biggest advantage, the ability to hit large groups of enemies from far away.
And you'd be suprised how many people drive a prius and have a ferrari. A better analogy is driving an Alfa or a Lotus when you have a C-class. The Alfa and the lotus might be more fun, but they'll probably break down somewhere and the C-class is more useful and more refined anyway.

Mon, 06/03/2013 - 18:44
#13
Apophis-Set-Two's picture
Apophis-Set-Two
:3

@Klipik I dunno my cars XD just tried to make an analogy :/ but what I tried to say was that for range, unless you have a total of CTR max on your brandish (fun, btw) it'd be hard to spam it with enough efficiency when compared to an AP or most other guns. The status can be emulated by using a driver, and without a weakness the brandish will be almost as OP as the blitz. Now, at least you didn't suggest a cone pattern of brandish bursts from charge attack with the same length, like:

-------------------@@@
---------------@@@@
(Knight)>@@@@@
---------------@@@@
-------------------@@@

I've seen this suggested, and I was like .______. -______-

tl;dr
Brandish charge:c it'll ruin the game

Mon, 06/03/2013 - 23:12
#14
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Alright, take this into mind: The Sudaruska and Triglav charge attacks are equivalant, if not slightly more powerful than the Brandish Charges, yet charge much slower, move much more slower while charging, and release much slower. Balance pl0x.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 04:29
#15
Egpnd's picture
Egpnd

The Gran Faust has a chance to inflict curse to the user, and FoV also has a chance....

Maybe, 3-5* Brandishes may have a small chance of inflicting their status to the user.

(Nerfed, but adds a high risk/reward to the mix, charge only.)

Basically, add a chance to cause statuses on the user.

Only if theres no way to balance it with the speed of the charge.

:/

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 05:37
#16
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
@Hexzyle

Triglav charges slower than brandish? This is news to me. I tried it just now in the lobby, and Triglav charged just as fast as Volcanic Pepperbox which charged just as fast as Glacius.

Troika charges does all of its damage in a pretty respectable radius and have great knocback, it really would be terribly unbalanced for it to be nearly as quick and easy as brandishes, which has the high end of its damage and knockback focused at point-blank and in a straight line.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 10:16
#17
Apophis-Set-Two's picture
Apophis-Set-Two
._____.

Egpnd, if that's added to brandishes, chaos users would (/>->)/ |____|
@Zeddy I believe he meant the execution of the charge attack, which does seem a bit slower than brandish, but in actuality I think the charge execution takes the same amount of time, and the troikas make up for the lack of far reach (like the brandish's range, pointed out by Klipik) by pure destructive power and knockback. I've fooled around with a sudaruska for a while... :3 was fun, but couldn't finish FSC as fast with it, when compared with a combuster.
@Dreath Also, hammer dps<(a lot of things)

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 10:57
#18
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
@Apophis-Set-Two

He mentioned both the execution and the charge time. It's true that, in most circumstances, brandish has a longer reach than Triglav. However, you can't kill things over chasms/walls with brandish, whereas Triglav has no problems doing that.

FSC is one thing, but what about areas where troika and brandish both deal neutral damage, like a slime area with a non-acheron brandish? Would brandish still be faster for that?

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 11:16
#19
Apophis-Set-Two's picture
Apophis-Set-Two
:O

Never tested that... I think I'll go find a slime arena later :/
I think it still seems like it would be faster to use a brandish, but that's my opinion :/ I guess I've practiced a bit more with them than troikas.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 19:27
#20
Atacii
...

The kiss of death: antigua style charge attack, i.e. full combo before otherwise awesome aoe attack.

Then the forums will revolt while the people who actually play the game quietly go back to using DA.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 20:15
#21
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

Except DA isn't very good anymore either, since they changed the charge attack.

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 11:42
#22
Atacii
...

They changed DA charge?

Ah, you're talking about the change made forever ago to prevent players from sneaking projectiles across indestructibles, aren't you? You just have to make sure you aren't right up against a wall before you use it, not a big deal.

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 17:45
#23
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

No, I was talking about where they moved the projecties to start much closer to you and spread out in a much narrower cone.

New

Old

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 22:05
#24
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Klipik-Forum

Except DA isn't horrendously glitchy and abusable anymore, since they changed the charge attack.

Fixed that for you.

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