Spiral Knights - Why isn't volcanic pepperbox used more often?

Why isn't volcanic pepperbox used more often?

21 replies [Last post]

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 14:01

Fehzor

I rarely see people using it, and its a fantastic weapon, the only one capable of carrying the player through all 3 of the major bosses. (snarbolax is not a "major boss", as you don't go "oh no, I'd better craft a blitz needle to beat the snarbolax", you just use your 1* beast whacker)

Its more usable than the blitz needle is, as you can use the normal shots to light crowds of enemies on fire and the main shot for the same purpose as the blitz. It also has knockback on the charge, which enables it to knock back enemies that are close by as they attack you.... from a balancing standpoint, you'd almost think it to be overpowered. So why isn't everyone using this?

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 14:37

Retaeq

Since all anybody does is

Since all anybody does is FSC, Blitz is much more common than pepperboxes, since blitz is better for FSC.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 15:53

Qwez

Punishing charge attack for bad aiming, low damage

Lower range, lower damage, knockback of charge bullets contributes to lower damage. In short, it's risky to do but usually does low damage (unless against a slow/unmoving enemy, in which case it's dangerous to get close). If VP charge did a little more damage for the amount of danger I put myself in for a CQC battle with a gun, I'd expect a little more damage out of the VP. It's not like I feel that the VP is weak per se, but I could've just as easily used a brandish charge instead of a VP charge against that Mecha-Knight and I'd be much safer because I'm not rooted to this spot.

I generally use Neutraliser more often than VP because VP is more situational and generally only useful at close range. However, recently I've just been bringing around a Winmillion because it solves the problem of a gun and close range attacks without having to fiddle with switching weapons.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 16:34

Magnicth

Volcanic Pepperbox really is

Volcanic Pepperbox really is amazing. In fact, if you were to balance all the other weapons in the game, it might even seem a bit overpowered compared to them. It can be just as useful in FSC, and rips jellies and constructs apart. Very lovely weapon that is sadly misunderstood.

~Magnicth

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 16:54

Fehzor

Without accounting for the charge, it *should* have higher overall damage vs neutral targets when you account for the fire, right? Like, its selling point is that it has greater utility, that it has more to offer than just killing a single boss... but can still be used to kill that boss reasonably well.

And yeah, it is "worse for FSC", but that's just one use for it. Surely people aren't so short sighted as to plan their entire loadout for one level?

"I'll be playing FSC, so crafting a blitz needle would be nice..." is plausible. I do enjoy going to FSC on occasion.

"I'll be farming nothing but FSC, so I'd better craft a blitz needle with CTR very high, then roll fire max/shadow max/normal max onto vog and mask of seerus, as well as craft and roll nothing but zombie killing weapons. I'd also better consider getting a tattoo of a slag to show my loyalty." seems a bit farfetched to me. It kind of defeats the purpose of playing the game- you want to go and have a good time just doing whatever... why would you just grind FSC all day?

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 18:40

Leekcoco

You'd be surprised (or not). A lot of people just camp in FSC all day.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 18:45

Qwez

It does do more damage only if they're stuck in place

Otherwise it does far less damage. Much of the time I'm either trying to unleash my VP when they are leaping or else I'm not doing much damage.

VP is OP against slow and stationary enemies, otherwise it's subpar compared to other weapons. What do you not understand about that .-.

I have this feeling that VP needs teamwork when you're in a team, to be successful. Otherwise you're dead because you got rushed by some kats, or you got out of position and got swamped, or you missed and they aren't helping you. I'd have to say it does not hold a much of a light in "team play" (aka kill everything asap bumrush).

I just tried the VP in a graveyard with plentiful Phantoms, I died... a lot. The other player kept spamming Trollaris and I could rarely unleash my VP into the Phantoms. I didn't understand this, why doesn't he/she trust me as a teammate to be able to use my charged-gun to blast the crap out of the Phantoms, then resume firing a little bit later. I ended up just trying to peek in my charge attack whenever I could. Another moment, I was to the side of the Phantoms and dealing good damage while mr. Trollaris spammed them upwards. I tried to circle around the top and get around to the bottom area, but he/she just spammed them up into me and I had them aggro'd...
I recall another moment, in Gauntlet shock polyps spawned and I started charging a VP and didn't bother shielding because I thought that this guy would block for me, turns out when he shielded he tried to dodge the spikes leaving me in the open...

Or maybe it's just me, and I'm too stuck up on there being this thing called "teamwork".

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 19:05

Misten

Because VP has too low

Because VP has too low damage, especially when they push the target away, to be routed to the ground to use. The benefits/risk ratio is too low. Other weapons like Levi has better benefits/risk ratio. Also, weapon slots are actually quite cheap once you have access to FSC.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 21:42

Magnicth

@Misten: VP doesn't have low

@Misten: VP doesn't have low damage. In fact, it's damage is pretty decent. It's very handy when you figure out what enemies it is best for, timing the charge shots, etc. It's prefectly balanced, blitz is just OP and needs a big ol' nerf.

~Magnicth

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 00:00

Blue-Flood

it's pretty neat in like all

it's pretty neat in like all of the danger missions - slays the bosses in C42 and GITM pretty well. Really gota be careful with it's charge just like the blitz.

I've been using it in LD a bit lately cause it hits multiple times and causes fire!

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 00:32

#10

Misten

@MagnicthBalance is all

@Magnicth

Balance is all about relative to all weapons available. There is no balance on its own.

When there is a disadvantage of being routed to the ground, decent damage is not enough. Need more than average damage. I'm talking about relative benefits/risk ratio to each individual person. VP users have might found a way to minimize the risk, that is why they like it but most people don't find it worthwhile. That is the answer to "Why isn't volcanic pepperbox used more often?"

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 05:03

#11

Krakob

The pros of a Blitz are imo major, at least when fighting undead/gremlin/fiend/beast enemies. You'll deal higher damage against them all since you will knock the enemies down and not back. The fire is awesome and a properly DI'd VPB will, IIRC, oneshot a Trojan (once the fire has worked a bit) in stratum 6. The real pro of the VPB is of course its normal damage. I have it moderately high on my priority list, just roughly at the same level as Supernova. Normal weapons are wonderful for Arcade runs!

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 16:02

#12

Magnicth

@Misten: You cannot really

@Misten: You cannot really determine exactly how balanced an item in this game is because you can't really compare it to everything else when everything else is unbalanced. If everything else became balanced, then VP would be already balanced, a bit overpowered even. In it's current state among all the other weapons, it is still perfectly balanced. And if you don't bother learning how to effectively use a weapon, then you don't belong getting it. That goes for every weapon, not just VP. If anything, VP has more of a safeguard than blitz. After all, blitz isn't suitable for use against all monster families, doesn't deal a damaging status, nor deals knockback on the charge.

The REAL answer to "Why isn't volcanic pepperbox used more often?" is that most players believe that normal damage sucks, and that all normal damage weapons are "bad" while all specialized damage weapons are "good", which is entirely untrue.

~Magnicth

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 16:30

#13

Narfle

Outside of FSC, the problem is that constructs are the only enemy group against whom the blitz won't out-damage the VP. I do agree, though, that it is super fun to use.

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 18:02

#14

Misten

@MagnicthSince you think

@Magnicth

Since you think everything else is unbalanced and only VP is balanced. The bias is strong. Lets agree to disagree.

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 17:14

#15

Espeonage

For a different point

I suppose it had a bad initial rep, as near the end of the preview it was changed to have a single-shot clip. Don't know when it was changed back (could have even been at release), but of course what was last known and being 5* anyway would easily leave it on the backburner for news and instigation regarding it.

Wed, 06/05/2013 - 20:56

#16

Magnicth

@Misten: I did not say that

@Misten: I did not say that every item in the game is unbalanced. I am simply saying that after fixing what needs fixing and making sure all the items are all balanced, then comparing them to the volcanic pepperbox would show that it is indeed balanced, maybe even overpowered a tad. In the current state of items, however, it seems underpowered, but is still a perfectly viable option that is most often overlooked when it shouldn't be.

~Magnicth

Thu, 06/06/2013 - 07:53

#17

Fehzor

I think Espy is the correct. It certainly isn't a bad weapon, people just think it is.

Thu, 06/06/2013 - 13:23

#18

Obsidious

Funny enough, VP is actually

Funny enough, VP is actually one of my go-to sidearms whenever I have four slots open. I like using it whenever I feel like simply peppering the enemies from a distance while my teamates are already attacking (Partially because I have ASI high on it). The other reason I use it is primarily for it's utility, and setting things on fire. That last one I like a fair bit, though I feel the chance for causing that condition isn't as great as it should be, at least in terms of spreading it. Granted, I realize the gun strikes multiples times, but it is inaccurate to a degree; against a single monster, a point blank shot would normaly work, but at a distance, the chance decreases. Often times I almost treat the VP as a stand alone flamethrower.

Respectfully, the gun does feel a weeeeee underpower, but like the others had mentioned, its still viable. Heck, it's great against JK and RT, as well as pushing groups of cluttered monster back. Having it do more dmg vs neutral enemies (In regards to blitz), would help.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 07:21

#19

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

Because VP doesn't deal elemental damage.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:31

#20

Exerpa

Should I shoot Undead/Gremlin

Should I shoot Undead/Gremlin with Callahan or Iron Slug?
Should I shoot Fiend/Slime with Polaris or Supernova?
Should I shoot Beast/Construct with Biohazard or Neutralizer?

Status aside, the normal gun is similar enough to the non-normal one it doesn't really matter.

Should I shoot Undead/Gremlin with Plague Needle or Volcanic Pepperbox?
They are different enough that it does matter. Unless you really need that knockback, the Plague is a better option. Except it can't compete with the Blitz so this is a moot point. Notice that nobody else mentioned the Plague in this thread

Sun, 06/09/2013 - 00:46

#21

Geosmin

Plague is in a different

Plague is in a different class in terms of cost, since its recipes are essentially free for some one really into LD and/or BN and out of practical reach for peops who're just interested in the Clockworks. (unless they're both fine with spending gobs of time on something they don't find fun while probably making it less fun for some of the peops who do like it, of course) I agree about Pepper and Needler being different weapons, though.

I enjoy my Fiery Pepperbox and will be upgrading to 5-star some day, because it's one of my many favourite weapons. I greatly enjoy its soothing purr and weird, awesome double-ejection thing it has going on like it's somehow a gatling-type autogun and a break-open pepperbox at the same time. It's like Schroedinger's repeater! It's also my favourite tool for breaking those 3-hit blocks and ore spires, since I don't really find Jelly guns satisfying to use in most situations, (though I'm thinking about giving Cutter type sword another try, so that very well may change later on) and I like using with a Catalyser and hoping a PUGger will bring a Freeze weapon to the party. ^ . ^

I do see how the Neutraliser and Brandishes can look more appealing to most peops, though- the Cat for offensive gun, and Brandish for overall ease of use, flexibility and ease of use. Also, Brandishes are really easy to use effectively. A Brandish charge at optimal range (just a step outside contact range, I think) followed by finishing the combo as fast as its animations will allow seems to cut down a Lumber about as well as an Autogun charge and leave less vulnerable time afterward, though it might require a bit of pre-softening with a gun on the approach or something. I still prefer Pepper for the satisfying visuals and sound, esp. when interrupting a Lumber's attack with it, but most peops are probably more into that bit of flexibility and/or defensive utility the Brandish has over Autogun.

I guess I mostly enjoy the Autogun because it asks a little more of me to get to know it, which makes interaction with it more satisfying for me. I find myself doing a weird dance with monsters where I repeatedly kick them with a shield-bump and shoot them while they try to approach me again, and after months of doing this it still hasn't grown old. I put monsters against backstops for charge attacks, more or less like Calibur users learn to do. I spray Gun puppies with uncharged volleys so I can practice the timing for shooting and dodging with it, and give more chance for Fire to happen. I switch-shoot with other guns, enjoying the lopsidedness of the cycle. Sure, I find a Brandish is better for safely getting through really tough levels or trying to blaze through something really quickly, but if I can handle it with my Autogun and am in no hurry, I by far prefer to slow down and PLAY with the monsters.

P.S. While I agree that Normal damage is woefully undervalued, I think the lower base damage (apparently in exchange for Fire?) than the oft-compared Needler is probably what looks the worst. I actually would rather have either that higher base damage and no status effect, or a status effect that does something more than just applying an unimpressive amount of damage if either were an option, and from what I've seen this isn't an unusual preference at all. The difference in popularity between Flourish and Flamberge or between Prisma and Magma seems more dramatic than that between Neutraliser and Biohazard or between Supernova and Polaris.

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Why isn't volcanic pepperbox used more often?