Spiral Knights - Suggested Nerf's for Chaos [previously shadow defense for chaos]

Suggested Nerf's for Chaos [previously shadow defense for chaos]

49 replies [Last post]

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 07:25

Tahno

So, we have two suggestions so far, and I would like to rework our (quite repetitive/defensive) discussion to talk about these two options:

1) Chaos Cloak's buffs are now asi low, msi low, di low, ctr low. Defenses are the same

2) Chaos Cloak's buffs are the same. Chaos Cloak defends against only elemental damage.

Now that the shadow defense is out of the question, should I graveyard and make a new thread?

-----------Old, just so posts V aren't out of context----------------

Shadow defense for chaos (instead of elemental)
Just so Mad Bomber has a use. Its also a nerf to chaos (IMO).

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 08:08

Zeddy

Make it piercing defence so it's an actual nerf.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 08:12

Growlithepuppy

Changing it's defense to the type most mosters attack with in the most grinded mission in the game is a nerf?

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 08:13

Shazic

ya no

Making it a shadow def instead of elemental def would actually be a buff. it would give it more of an option to use in FSC, since most of the mission is shadow based.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 08:44

Qwote

What about taking out the elemental defense entirely?

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 12:23

Shidara

I'd rather they removed the

I'd rather they removed the normal defence to be honest, makes it especially susceptible to physical attacks but keeps its elemental resistance for energy-based attacks which is kind of what the entire cloak line is about.

- I'd also hope they'd up the elemental defence a bit to make up for that, but maybe that's asking too much.
Or, y'know, they could just revert the buff...though at this point it's kinda late for that.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 13:31

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Actually, Mad Bomber should get Shadow. That would work, eh?

Or maybe shadow/elemental?

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 13:35

Tahno

Responses

@zeddy

I'm sorry but piercing defense makes no sense for a magic line upgrade, which is made around elemental defense, (being the only normal-elemental T2 armor). If we made this an upgrade to either the wolver or gunslinger lines and changed the texture and the buffs to apply only to one weapon type then it would make more sense.

@growlithethepuppy AND Shazic

as arctifice says in this post
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53412

Shadow damage in FSC comes primarily from slow, stupid Slag Walkers and fast, deadly, yet easily predictable trojans.
Elemental damage in FSC, on the other hand, comes from easily lagged into shadow fire, fire vents, Red Rovers (which SUCK if you don't have proper fire res), Oiler fires, and I think Zombie breath.
Sources of elemental damage will kill you more frequently than those of Shadow damage. Just be glad Trojans and Zombies are the only shadow dealing enemies.

@shidara

I understand the reasoning of nerfing chaos more...and Shidara's comment is a great solution. However, if we were to make it shadow defense, it would go along with the theme of "chaos". If Sega the devs wanted to, they could make chaos part of the Skelly set to make up for this, as this would give skelly two 5* upgrades as well as Magic. (since now magic has 3)

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 13:47

Kimahsonite

It's a buff to the already

It's a buff to the already overpowered armor set. The two hardest monster families in the game (fiends and undead) inflict shadow damage. What about removing it's current elemental defense?

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 13:51

Tahno

@Kimahsonite

Wouldn't removing the normal defense make the armor weaker? The Magic line was seemingly made just to be elementally defensive, and an upgrade shouldn't remove the main purpose of a line. Also, as Shidara said (in better words than I just did),

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 19:05

#10

Klipik-Forum

If we were using themes and actual real-world logic, then Vog Cub armor should have freeze resist, plate armor would have massive piercing resist (more than jelly), and Gunslinger would have no defense whatsoever.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 20:38

#11

Phaseburst

GREAVER FEVER

@Klipik-Forum

This game wants to make the equipment easy to understand, eg Fire is not effective against fire, Ice is not effective against Ice

You are suggesting extremely heavy rock armor for shock, giant ice poles for fire, a flaming armor for ice resist, and what? A jacket with antidote plants all over for poison resist? Oversized metal sheets for stun, and a trillion crosses all over an armor for curse, diamond plates for pierce, more crosses for shadow, and for elemental.....I do not want to imagine the amounts of Ion flux capacitor things or whatevers what would be on the armor.

@kimahsonite

Not everyone thinks fiends and undeads are hard. I think they're quite easy as long as you have appropriate armor and a bomb of any sort or a fast weapon. Maybe not Irontech and BAB but you get my point. Fast bombs like Scintillating Sun Shards, coincidentally also being superior to fiends, can be easily used to clear a room of even greavers.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 20:38

#12

Phaseburst

GREAVER FEVER

Double post

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 23:51

#13

Etharaes

(Insert witty topic sentence here)

So you're saying, we could change chaos so we could use chaos to 'defend' against shadow and mad bomber could 'defend' against elemental enemies? People who use chaos/mad bomber have gone past the point of needing defensive bonuses. Honestly, the only thing that will make mad bomber a viable choice over chaos is to nerf chaos' offensive bonuses, like giving it four lows, damage, ctr, asi and msi? Also, maybe stun weakness for chaos too?

Note: I use chaos, and have owned it since before the mega-buff.

~Ethanol, leader of the lollipops.

Thu, 06/13/2013 - 00:50

#14

Kimahsonite

@Toaster-Overload I never

@Toaster-Overload

I never said they were hard, I'm saying that constructs, gremlins and especially slimes and beasts are easier.

Also I like Etharaes' idea, MSI low, ASI low, CTR low on each piece. :D (and mercurial would obviously get MSI medium on each)

Thu, 06/13/2013 - 07:17

#15

Infernoburner

Derpuraptor strikes back

Person:
Undead hard? Have you done OCH and FSC? Compare them.
Author:
@zeddy

For some reason I can't help myself and have to give this a +1, but I'd like to see how this thread goes...

Thu, 06/13/2013 - 16:20

#16

Tahno

@infernoburner

I realize I contradicted myself... after I posted my comment, and then had a tough time logging into steam, but thats just an excuse. Sorry about that. We could suggest to make chaos part of skelly.... (i touched on this earlier)

Also, the idea of giving it four lows sounds good, but then would it stay with split elemental-normal defense? I would assume so.

Thu, 06/13/2013 - 17:24

#17

Canine-Vladmir

-1

Make Chaos set have ONLY Normal Damage.

edit: scratch that. The Cloak sets are meant to be elemental. (Talk to the guy in HOH)
So make Chaos Set have ONLY Elemental Damage.

Thu, 06/13/2013 - 19:24

#18

Tahno

Made OP more relevant to the discussion. Kept old OP just for context for new readers (if there are any).

Thu, 06/13/2013 - 19:27

#19

Waffleconecake

@Canine-Vladmir

If the chaos line is meant to be "chaotic" then it should be the odd one out of the cloaks and should have a crazy resistance, so pricing instead of elemental would work.

Thu, 06/13/2013 - 21:03

#20

Etharaes

(Insert witty sentence here)

@Tahno Honestly, I don't think altering the defence would do anything to chaos cloak, so yeah, defence would be kept the same.

Honestly, I'm so happy now that somebody agreed with me instead of crushing my idea.

~Ethanol, the happy hipster that happens to use the chaos set.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 05:33

#21

Kimahsonite

~Ethanol, the happy hipster

~Ethanol, the happy hipster that happens to use the chaos set.

Hipsters don't use chaos set. ;)

Also good job to OP for adding ideas.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 07:34

#22

Tahno

He forgot to add that he wears a maid headband with it. A heavy maid headband.
What a hipster.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 11:59

#23

Infernoburner

Derpuraptor strikes back

How to put the OP to work guide:

1. Suggest a boss mission with bigger payout than vana that actually doesn't want some stupid keys from you
2. Pry for your suggestion to be noticed and accepted by OOO
3. Vana is now dead and all because the other boss has better payouts.

Onto the nerfs, I think making the damage Normal and making it some sort of Vitasuit 5* in normal resistances would do. Guys, Elemental makes it so good to mix with the bomber sets resulting in less Mad Bomber. Either what I said, Shadow, or Piercing.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 12:45

#24

Waffleconecake

gtrurghawsfdru

"Make it piercing defense so it's an actual nerf." -Zeddy
Wise words from the only person who seems to know what the frack to do.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 14:35

#25

The-Mighty-Potato

Im sorry, but...

You think ASI,CTR,DMG, and MSI for EVERYTHING medium is a nerf? That definatley sounds like another buff idea...

Unless your saying it's low for cloak and only abvailable on the cloak, then meh...

Why not just make it so it has 5 bars of ele/normal defence? (Instead of 6) Much more simple than adding all these bonuses...

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 14:58

#26

Shidara

Overkill

Yeeaaaahhhh, Universal EVERYTHING low seems a bit much. That would be nine modifiers increased by two levels wearing the full set, as opposed to the current six at level four. That is arguably better than the current set as it enhances literally every single aspect of your Knight; your bombs are stronger and quicker to charge and your swords and handguns share the same traits and are faster to boot, and you're able to move faster on top of all that. I won't lie, I would love those bonuses on my armour, but isn't that precisely why it's a bad idea when the current stats are already more than good enough?

I still stand by my previous suggestion to remove Normal defence altogether and retaining Elemental defence only (perhaps at a slightly higher level than presently) to keep it consistent with the Elemental theme of the Magic-line altogether.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 16:04

#27

Phaseburst

Derrp

@Kimahsonite

If something is NOT easier, that what is it? Uneasier! Yeaaahhhh no Slimes and beasts and gremlins are hard for bombers. It's a storm of biases!

@Zeddy

How the heck does changing it to piercing give it a nerf? It would be the same bars except with different defense. Same difference in most levels, and now even more useful for jelly king.

Just add stun weakness to chaos and its done

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 16:14

#28

Waffleconecake

@Toaster-Overload

The reason why giving it piercing defense would be a nerf because the two easiest monster family deal piercing damage, slimes and beasts.
No one does jelly king for end game. Unless they are farming for jelly gems.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 16:22

#29

Glacies

http://i.imgur.com/gvS5DnV.png

Lower Normal Damage by 10 Points.
Remove Elemental Resistance.

This seems more like a Glass Cannon like Nick wanted.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 16:44

#30

Etharaes

Professor Exposition Arrives!

@Shidara Can you please explain to me how my proposed changes gives nine bonuses and how chaos in it's current state gives six?

@Everyone
Currently:
Wearing one piece of chaos gives: universal damage bonus medium and universal charge time reduction medium. 4 universal bonuses total.
Wearing both pieces chaos gives: universal damage bonus very high and universal charge time reduction very high. 8 universal bonuses total.

My change is:
Wearing one piece of chaos gives: universal damage bonus low, universal charge time reduction low, attack speed increase low and movement speed increase low. 4 universal bonuses total.
Wearing both pieces chaos gives: universal damage bonus medium, universal charge time reduction medium, attack speed increase medium and movement speed increase medium. 8 universal bonuses total.

Please tell me why you think that my idea is any more powerful than chaos' current state. If you honestly think that movement speed is more powerful than the other bonuses, drop it. Hardly anyone will notice a 14% increase in running speed anyays. Now it has less bonuses.

One of the main reasons that a nerf to chaos is justified is that it completely outclasses mad bomber. Think. Would a lack of normal defense on chaos REALLY be a legitimate reason to make mad bomber instead, keeping in mind that both of these armors are made to be used for people hardly ever get hit and in a game where defence has such little effect anyways?

My idea to change the bonuses would keep chaos just as powerful theoretically, yet for pure bombing mad bomber would obviously be better than chaos.

~Ethanol, the guy who likes to equip two troikas and switch-swing with them.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 18:28

#31

Waffleconecake

@Etharaes I want to hit you

Do you want me to hit you or some thing Etharaes?
Adding movement speed may not do much, but you know what it would do? Make the chaos set out class Mercurial Demo. Why? It provides medium to EVERYTHING, that may not be "much" but Merc Demo only provides medium speed, and medium damage bonus on bombs. All you would do is shift the problem from mad bomber to basically every weapon based armor set and possibly keep it on mad bomber. Why? Because movement speed still makes a difference for bombers most of all so by giving it to the current set that out classes bombing armor is just ludicrous.

The best way to "balance" it would to be A) Give it piercing instead of elemental so it only really protects you from beasts (what a threat) and slimes.
B) Increase the normal defense, but drop the elemental all together
C) Make the hood have medium charge time reduction and low attack damage. Give the cloak charge time reduction low and attack damage medium.
making the set only have high for charge time reduction and attack damage as a whole.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 18:54

#32

Tahno

@waffleconecake

Reserving this space for now....I'll get to replying soon. I don't have a physical keyboard right now....

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 20:43

#33

Zeddy

@The-Mighty-Potato

How often do you see people in Chaos doing Royal Jelly? If you've got a Chaos set you're beyond that place. It wouldn't be enough, at any rate.

Option 1, make it glassier

Remove normal protection altogether
All weaknesses turned into -4 instead of -2
Add stun weakness.

Same thing for Black Kat Cowl

Option 2, give Chaos an offensive tradeoff instead of just the defensive tradeoff. That way people will actually care about it.

+2 damage
+2 ASI
-2 CTR
Black Kat gets +4 ASI, +1 MSI, -2 damage.
Status weaknesses are up for debate.

It would ruin the market for ASI stuff, but man does that Mad Bomber look good for bombers now!

Option 3, balance it out, but fill in the gaps.

"Chaos" set gives +2 CTR for all weapons.

"Black Kat" hat gives +2 damage for all weapons.

"Mad Bomber" set gives +2 damage, +2 CTR for bombs.

"Berserker" set gives +2 damage, +2 ASI for swords.

"Highlander" set gives +2 damage, +2 CTR for swords.

"Vigilante" set gives +2 damage, +2 ASI guns.

"Bandit" set gives +2 damage, +2 CTR for guns.

People who were using Chaos because they enjoyed multiclassing can keep doing so. People who were using Chaos because it made their brandish really powerful can keep doing so, but with a different set.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 21:36

#34

Etharaes

@Waffleconecake

I'll just quote myself:

If you honestly think that movement speed is more powerful than the other bonuses, drop it.

Anyways, merc demo (and merc not-demo) wont be outclassed IMO because they serve as more defensive armors.

I like Zeddy's 3rd idea, but I think we would need a non-super rare +2 armor set. Zeddy knows first hand how devious that kowl is to get.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 21:50

#35

Waffleconecake

@Etharaes

Not many people care about defense in this game, why build more armor when you can just kill everything else faster?
The two sets would fall even farther into obscurity if you could most as fast as them and do more damage as again, no one will care about defense when they hit end game because it just terns into FCS grinding.
The reason why I feel movement speed for the merc sets both needs to be restricted to them, and buffed is to make them special, no one would consider making either of them if they did not have that movement speed. If some wolver set got movement speed no one would bother with the merc slime set seeing how again, people care more about offense then defense.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 21:50

#36

Phaseburst

Lumberitis

@Waffleconecake

ALL of the monster families are equally difficult, just depending on what weapon you are using. I use bombs, and am susceptible to heavy melee damage, which the beasts and the Slimes have.

Nobody does jelly king endgame. I was assuming you would know that the SL version would also count, but then again, nobody wears chaos for SLs, so true that, but why diss the Slimes and beasts? That's just mean D: Rabid Snarbs are beasts, Ice queen is slime, toxilargo and giant toxoil and toxpolyps are Slimes, are those not difficult? Polyps are completely resilient against freeze, as they can migrate the shot spikes anywhere. Glop drops are nearly impossible without bombs, and dust bunnies can..........ok you got me there dust bunnies are kind of dumb.

Anyways. Instead of converting to pierce, which will also debalance LD, how bout do nothing but add stun weakness? Gremlins are weak to bombs and constructs are too slow to catch up to bombers, in fact mecha knights cannot even defend against bombs unless gunned at.

Chaos. Chaos for the enemy, chaos for the player

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 22:58

#37

Hyper-Galactic

Rawr

Drop it to ctr low, dmg low, and make fire one hit kill with a 9 vita at vanaderp.

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 00:13

#38

Etharaes

(Insert topic here)

@Waffleconecake Ok, drop the msi. Won't really matter to me. I find it interesting though that you and I share the same belief that defence is nigh useless in this game, yet 2 of your 3 suggestions to balance chaos was to change the defence. Ok, I'll stop now. This is turning into a catty argument (read: this already is a catty argument and I think it would suit everyone if it ended).

@Hyper-Galactic Great idea. Lets make chaos weaker than it was before the mega buff. You, my friend, are a genius.

~Ethanol, the guy who has ideas which everyone seems to hate.

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 01:32

#39

Krakob

MEYHBEE WEE CULD JUZ MAK MAD BUMBR SHDAOW DEFNSTANTIC

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 08:27

#40

The-Mighty-Potato

@Zeddy

I don't know why you're asking me that question, but I rarely see anyone do JK with Chaos, and no I don't use it.

Has anyone actually thought of buffing mad bomber instead of nerfing chaos?

For example, WE INTRODUCE ASI TO BOMBS (joke, but you could make ASI a shorter fuse time).

But if Mad Bomber was buffed like we removed 1/2 status penalties and made the other 1/2 have -1 or something, or change it to 1 piece: DMG and CTR low + MSI medium. So overall: DMG + CTR Med + MSI V.high

Or make Chaos set back to what it originally was. (Overall - DMG + CTR med).

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 08:55

#41

Waffleconecake

@The-Mighty-Potato

mighty the prolem with that ubff is that it would then out shine the Merc Demo set... seerusly dude, please think of all the item sets, not one.

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 12:08

#42

Waffleconecake

@The-Mighty-Potato

dur double post

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 12:27

#43

Waffleconecake

@The-Mighty-Potato

quad post >_<

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 12:06

#44

Waffleconecake

@The-Mighty-Potato

triple post ;-;

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 12:07

#45

Waffleconecake

@The-Mighty-Potato

PENTA POST

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 10:14

#46

Little-Juances

Annoying flocks of greavers.... Where's my flourish?

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 10:45

#47

Zeyez

@.@

i have barbarous thorn blade, this help?

Sat, 06/15/2013 - 12:11

#48

Zeddy

@Waffleconecake

The problem with your Merc Demo argument is that Black Kat Cowl already gives +1 MSI, +3 damage for everything. That particular boat sailed a long time ago.

Sun, 06/16/2013 - 05:52

#49

The-Mighty-Potato

@Waffle

Fair enough, I didn't think of that, but it would be a possibility to make it have smaller penalties or more defence.

Although back to the original point, Archilus (Elemental defender) is the elemental defender for having his Grey Feather set. He only sells Divine and Chaos set because they are additional options for the magic line. Also, divine set also had shadow resistance which means that the extra lines can be any defence. If Walkon (Pierce defender) has an extra line it wouldn't have to be piercing, because it's just an extra option, it's not the main one. Chaos and divine set existed before the HoH did. OOO aren't going to change those lines just so Archilus's items are pure normal/elemental. If Chaos was piercing before HoH update it would still come under "Elemental defender".

So end conclusion: Chaos and Divine set can be whatever defence they want.

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Suggested Nerf's for Chaos [previously shadow defense for chaos]