Spiral Knights - "It just ain't right!"

"It just ain't right!"

23 replies [Last post]

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 08:07

Doctorspacebar

For the longest time, I feel like Three Rings has been ignoring player feedback. The Shard Bombs were neutered, many players cried out in horror both in-game and on the forums. All the feedback in "Testing Feedback" went ignored, and not only was an objectively BAD update let into the game, but it was implemented in a way that was easily exploitable. It was basically a mass "[REDACTED] you" to anyone that ever used the Radiant Sun Shards, or even the Ionized Salt Bomb.

Now they're doing it again. Nick is showing us this update. A lot of parts, like the Battle Sprites, new boss, and maybe the new crafting system, are great, but they're mostly sideshows compared to the circus of horror that is the removal of health revives and the addition of Sparks of Life, which will henceforth be called Sparks of Bribing because they basically let you bribe your way to victory.

Let me point out all the reasons that Three Rings should NEVER REMOVE HEALTH REVIVES OR IMPLEMENT THE NEW SPARKS OF BRIBING, EVER.

-1: Removal of health revives will promote selfish gameplay. Why should you take one for the team by running in the way of those mobs and knocking them away from the gunner? You don't want to die, you'll have to spend energy! People will care more about their own health bars than the party's health as a whole.

-2: Removal of health revives is not enjoyable for anyone in the party when someone dies. The dead guy, of course, has to either shell out 10 of the mist he wanted to run something else with, or lay there and watch as the rest of the party kills things and gets crowns. The guys alive, even if the dead guy doesn't beg for revives, still are going to feel guilty about having their ally just laying there. It removes fun from the game, which is something that you do not want.

-3: Energy revives costing only 10 mist each time cheapens the game. We all know that escalating energy revive cost punished people for getting the whole party killed, which should happen- if you're experiencing total party wipes twenty times, your team obviously needs more practice. With the system as it is now, reviving after the twentieth wipe, assuming a group of four players, costs the group a total of 1240 energy. With Sparks of Bribing, this same incident would cost the group 200 energy. Which would be fine if the monsters were actually tough, but that's not the case because most to all monsters have been heavily nerfed.

-4: Back to removal of health revives, your argument for removing them, like your argument for neutering the Shard Bombs, is as follows:

"In conjunction with this change, and after much debate, we are removing health sharing revives. Our observations show that health sharing to revive downed party members ends up being detrimental to teams working to complete levels; diluting overall team health to the point of team members being repeatedly one-shotted in combat." - Nick

Your argument is invalid. Oftentimes a Knight can actually enable the party to take MORE hits through Health Sharing; take, for example, a player with four health pips. This player's likely to die in two hits, one hit that gets him to 1HP and one hit that kills him. (You DO know how your damage system works, right?) Now suppose he splits his health with another guy. They will both die in two hits, one that gets them to 1HP and one that kills them. That's a total of four hits. It is objectively a better idea to revive in this case.

In addition to this, I'd prefer one 1HP crowd control bomber packing a Shivermist, one guy with a CTR max Blitz, one gunslinger firing Alchemers like a pro, and one swordsman with a Divine Avenger or Sudaruska to any one of those at 2HP or 4HP.

Let me make another TF2 comparison. The Sandvich, an unlockable item for the Heavy Weapons Guy that replaces his Shotgun, can be used to refill the Heavy's health completely. The Heavy can also throw it to turn it into a medium health kit, allowing him to heal his teammates. The Heavy sacrifices something he could use to heal himself (possibly until his death) to give some health to another ally. Worth it? OF COURSE. The Heavy can save a Medic that's burning to death, or give the Soldier or Demoman the HP he needs to take down a Sentry Gun. That's called teamwork. HEALTH REVIVING IN SPIRAL KNIGHTS IS THE SAME WAY. The Gunslinger can sacrifice a few hits to get the Bomber up and running so he can lay down some Shivermist, or get the Swordsman poised to hit that irritating Trojan Knight in the back! I'd rather get one-shotted, myself.

-5: The whole thing is an obvious and brazen money grab; you limit revives to whoever is willing to spend mist on them. Anyone over the age of 10 can see you're trying to take our money. But it'll backfire hard; not only will there be less money spent per "disaster" party, but the sheer gall of it will liquid people off and make them give your game bad reviews.

Now to mention one more thing. Nick, listen to this one.

"Please note that these changes are glimpses of a larger picture that we are not yet ready to reveal."

Nick, you might not know this, but THOSE ARE THE KIND OF WORDS THAT DRIVE YOUR PLAYER BASE TO RABID INSANITY. The most of this "Larger picture" we're seeing is you going liquid all over our favorite weapons, making the interface ugly, and saying "screw you" to teamwork. You're painting a very bad "larger picture" and we'd like you to finish it or at least tell us what you're trying to draw before you show it to us. We're getting tired of it. People are going to quit.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 08:46

Little-Juances

Buy sparks with an alt every day. Doesn't matter if they are bound. (if they are not, it makes this even easier?)
In a month or so, that alt will be able to solo a SL with proto armor thanks to free hoarding :P

Unless it's a CE-only item in wich case it's evil.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 09:39

Zeddy

@Little-Juances

You can't buy sparks unless you're dead. When you do, they're consumed instantly.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 09:41

Doctorspacebar

Butt out, Sega

Exactly. Nobody should be able to do that unless they don't get hit.

And the saddest part? I'm fully convinced that Three Rings doesn't even read this forum. They didn't last time, when they neutered the Shard Bombs. I have to say, I don't blame the guys posting in General Discussion, because Sparks of Bribing are a terrible idea and ALL the developers should know.

There's a chance Sega may be at fault for this, though...

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 09:44

Zenpai

@Zeddy, Nick has said they

@Zeddy, Nick has said they will be available in the supply depot and from drops. Assuming that what you see on the test server now is what you get in the final build is silly.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:37

Cakemask

@Doctorspacebar

I'm fully convinced that Three Rings does read this fourm.

Also, while I do agree that the cons of sparks of life outweigh the pros by quite a bit, you could be overreacting. This is, after all, a free to play game.

While I do not claim to be able to read OOO's thoughts, If I were a developer and saw someone getting as unnecessarily mad over my game as you are, I would not take that person's opinion as seriously as they themselves were. And the community is not always correct, either. Take, for example, the DA "nerf". It was a long time coming and when it did happen, many people protested by attempting to crash SK servers by all gathering on one server. All OOO did was fix a glitch in the game. Which they had every right to do.

Community input is a privilege, not a right.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:54

Doctorspacebar

Butt out, Sega

@Cakemask: All right, okay, it's the 4th of July today. Valid reason not to be on. I admit that. But how about earlier, when the community clamored for Three Rings not to crappify the Shard Bombs? When they had far more valid reasons NOT to change them than any reason TO change them that the developers could churn out? Or how about the previous few days the Test Server was open with the Sprites? We want answers.

I'm not getting unnecessarily mad. I'm getting necessarily mad. The removal of health revives and the addition of Sparks of Bribery is going to severely harm the game as a whole.

You are true that the community is not always correct, but they're not always incorrect either and I for one have not seen a convincing argument in favor of removing Health Revives. This is not the DA bug. This is not any kind of bug. This is not even an OK "bug" like the Pepperbox sucking enemies in instead of pushing them out. This is the developers removing something from the game in an effort to fix what isn't broken. Your "DA bug" analogy is entirely invalid.

Making money is a privilege, not a right. If this goes through, I'll vote against this terrible idea with my money.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:50

Cakemask

Crappify? It's anything but

Crappify? It's anything but in my opinion, the shard bombs are awesome with the new mechanics, and split damage was bad in the first place.

And yes you are, this a TESTING SERVER. A Hey-does-this-work server. Not a This-is-what-we-made-and-we'll-put-it-in-whether-you-like-it-or-not server. Nobody knows if we won't have health revs in the future.

They thought it up, they put it on the testing server, and now we'll see if they take it off or not. I personally think they will, because feedback states that their group-friendly changes are actually group-unfriendly. And from what Nick says, they still have a few curtains to pull back before the "Larger picture" is apparent, which may or may not justify these changes.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:28

Traevelliath

It's also worth noting that the original RSS had (almost) no fuse time, faster charge time than most bombs, longer range than most guns, faster projectiles than most guns, dealt more damage than most 5* guns, all while being a 4* item. I don't get how people didn't see a nerf coming from miles away...

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:49

Glacies

Any easier nerf would have just been decreasing the damage or increasing the fuse time. OOO just pretty much shoved it somewhere unholy that should never be spoken of. Now it's completely worthless and has absolutely no-use whatsoever. It's broken and glitchy and OOO clearly has no plans on fixing it.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 00:30

#10

Klipik-Forum

I'll make an actual in-depth post tomorrow but about the DA...

They "fixed" it by adding another bug. Great job.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 01:19

#11

Fehzor

Nick's argument is perfectly valid when you view a veteran player shepherding a group of newer players through something like the royal jelly.... For instance, I have, in the past, solo'd the entirety of the royal jelly levels with my volcanic pepperbox, with 3 people watching dead. I did this for kicks at one point, because I could, but also out of necessity for our survival...

I wiped the other day in the royal jelly palace. Want to know why, or how, I could do such a thing? Because I got greedy, and I revived my party members over and over and over, and then I died. Because I was one hit away from death, because I had stretched my HP to half a bar. Naturally, they were immediately left helpless- they were at 1/2 a bar and couldn't revive me or each other once they died, none of them had pills (I'm nice and let them take all the pills/vitas/everything).

So yeah, he does have a point, but so do you- if I'm in a party with 3 high level players, and we're doing something challenging like a danger mission or a shadow lair, it is expected that we die a bit. Not all over the place, but death happens. We accept it, and through our revives and our sonic mode powers, we are able to progress. Its one of the secrets to the game, reviving+sonic mode is.

=========

I'm really disappointed that you didn't mention my favorite issue here, that loot disappears and isn't shared over the entire party, meaning that random parties likely won't be viable any more altogether. Why? Because lets say I'm fighting in the arcade with 3 randoms, and some wise guy has the idea that he wants to go to the left. And the rest of us are going up. If he finds a set of boxes, and it triggers 3 enemies to spawn, he has to fight them while we're off fighting stuff. Normally, he could just grab the loot and go, no problems... but under the new system, it'd be a huge gaping mess of items disappearing before our eyes, me running all over the level for 20 minutes, and eventually someone getting kicked for "not staying with the group" or whatnot.

If I go with someone like Zeddy that I know, then we can easily make it through the level in perfect harmony, as we would both be aware of the strange drop system, and would stick together... likewise, tier 3 players would likely know whats up, but I don't always go with them, and I'm not always patient with people when I'm just trying to kick back and relax and have some fun playing the good old Spiral Knights.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 02:00

#12

Feline-Grenadier

So...

From what I'm seeing so far, it's that the staff won't say anything unless it's :

1. Not in the correct thread.

2. Having to do with an obscene / rude user.

3. Correcting misinformation / clarifying misinformation.

4. Announcing features.

~~~

Anyhow, adding another CE sink is just gonna rake in a load of money for OOO no doubt, now that the demand to revive will be absolutely bursting in the lower ranks [I'll be re-running rank 2 to make sure I slowly train upwards and I don't die. That still won't stop the massacre ], and CE prices might as well be skippy as an ostracized ostrich.

Sure, the goal of segregating different ranks to avoid alting is good and all...

...but hell will be wrought onto end-game parties and SL runners. I won't blame the players if they die a lot later on, but the current crown gain with the current CE market price is just too small to actually benefit most players [besides millionare merchants]. It takes 2-3 runs in JK to amass 7k crowns, which would by then be set a lot higher due to how much gets flushed down the sink known as Sparks of Life. The new rev system is just as bad, if not worse, than the old one, so I can't say that I even like this feature.

Unless SoLs are to be as rare as Grim, Primal, and Forge Sparks, and can be found and stockpiled. That might ease the CE market standard price a bit.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 07:29

#13

Mentlegen

Yeah

I really don't like this. There is no reason not to go solo now, and solo is boring...

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 09:01

#14

Cooliodude

Agreed

After reading this entire thread, I do agree with Drspacebar's point. The removal of the health-sharing revives will probably ruin the game. Yes, if there is one knight left and his full party is down except for him, he has the decision to revive other players with half his health, which is usually a good idea. But if he has to go spend a 'Spark of Life' on it, then he probably won't because he doesn't want to waste his energy. The main problem is that OOO is making it so you are required to spend your Crowns or Crystal/Mist Energy on revives. Just yesterday I was doing a danger mission with some friends, we all died a ton since we were messing around, but we always had at least one person up able to revive us.

What should happen:
I do get annoyed with the rising cost of revivals, but hey, I've been playing since SK came out of Beta and they have always been there, so I don't care about it since energy revives aren't a necessity. But it would be nice to have a cheaper system in case I ever decide to solo (which I usually don't since I'm social) so that I don't have to spend my full mist tank on one mission. Try to introduce the new revival system, but keep the health sharing revives. I do know that there is the emergency revive, but that won't do Jack if you're on a suicide mission for your team.

Drspacebar was mentioning the Shard Bombs quite a bit... I actually agreed with what they did to change them, because a bomber having a "gun" just isn't right.... If you combine a Volcanic Demo Suit and Helm with a level 10 bomb, you can have maxed out CTR. This means that the old shard bombs with that could be incredibly fast, and it would just ruin the game. I also find the shard bombs convenient, if you're down in a narrow walkway or area, you can place a shard bomb and just keep running with it, and your enemies will get destroyed over time.

If they start ruining the game though, I'm probably going to quit. Please don't mess this up guys, do as you have been doing.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 09:59

#15

Dirigible

The new updates, I'm pretty convinced, were meant to both kill off the usage of mist energy in alchemy as well as making people pay monies to play the game after dying. Both are stupid and make the game more unnecessarily costly than it already is, to be brief.

The shard bomb nerf was to kill off all the elitist max CTR bombers running through levels and using bombs as offensive weapons, because now the game was too easy, and bombs actually were a somewhat valid solo offensive weapon option. For an "average" player like me, the bomb wasn't a super-spam death gun but more so a crowd-control close-distances bomb. Unfortunately it was decided by whoever that nerfing a bomb that actually does damage was a good idea. I mean, seriously, any other gun/sword charge attack probably did around the same damage as the RSS did. But whatever, turn my go-to vs undead VH bomb into a pile of bird poop, sure what gives anyways.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 10:17

#16

Blaknt

the new health system is fine

all this update is doing is extending the game play. it was obviously to hard for people starting out, and once you got the hang of it it became to easy. (hint people doing vana in proto gear). here's a pro con list for each health system (all info is based from experience of the old system not a tester so cant say from experience for the new system, but can use what they said about the new system.

old system:
pros-
capable of not having to use ce to revive(i.e. mist energy) or if played correctly
with low amount of deaths its cost effecient(10 to on average about 40 on 1 person reviving or split between players)

cons-
capable of not having to use ce to revive(i.e. mist energy) - promoted alt dragging
shares the same pool as crafting weapons and elevator rides(both of which are more useful than reviving)
you constantly lost heat and health
if died to many times it quickly became to expensive (fluctuated with the rise and fall of ce prices)
revive cost followed through each level you went through

new system:
pros-
makes alt dragging not worth it
free revive on each level
doesnt share same pool as crafting and elevators(can use mist/ce strictly for each)
you keep your heat
you always have half health
depending on drop rate and price could be cost effecient
if died to many times price of spark stays the same

cons-
no more heat boosting(some might say this is a pro)
depending on drop rate and price could be non cost effecient
cant use free mist to revive
with low deaths it might not seem worth it

heres a table
shadow lair vana you havent died you now have 50 mist (used 50 to get there)
old system:
deaths------1------2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7
c/m o.h---40m-20m-80c--0c--40c--20c--60c (ce/mist on hand)
ce cost-----10----20---40---80--160--320--640 (use mist on first 2 deaths)
cr cost------0------0----7k-----0---14k--21k--49k

after 7 deaths you have spent a total of 91k crs x4 for whole team equals 364k will always be this high (will fluctuate with ce rise and fall)

new system:
death---------1-----2-----3------4------5-------6------7
spark used--0----1-----1------1------1-------1------1
cr cost--------0----5k---5k-----5k----5k-----5k----5k

after 7 deaths you haved used a total of 30k crs x4 for whole team equals a total of 120k will be this high if you buy sparks of life (you forgot you can find them making it cost nothing to revive this is the sole reason the new system is better

edit: 5k cr price is just a random number could be higher or lower i just think this would be a good number cause beginners have to be able to buy it
edit again: you might not even be able to buy it with crowns since it said it would be in the supply depot.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 10:21

#17

Dirigible

meh @blaknt

Yeah, but for the most part people try to avoid using energy revives in the first place, and often go entire levels without having to CE revive. The new system is killing off health-splitting revives, and that's the problem.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 10:30

#18

Feline-Grenadier

Hmm...

There's also the new difficulty modes that people are gonna jump on...

...so, at first, SoLs will be in high demand, and the drop rate probably won't be enough [otherwise OOO would break SK and everyone wouldn't care about reviving. Alts and heating would continue unless you remove the heat-revive system entirely] to supply the players at first...

So dying a lot in the beginning of this update won't be a huge pain compared to dying a lot in the old system.

However, come X months / years, players are going to get used to the difficulty of the game, and then SoLs become more expensive for the more "casual" deaths [dying at five times and below], that is, unless the drop rate woud be ridiculously high, as said above.

Well...it looks like a crown-grinding promotion now, more than anything. Not sure if players would still want it if it's gonna force people to grind now.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 10:54

#19

Grimranger

This issue is bad enough, but it's nothing compared to removing shared heat/material/crowns.
Partying will be dead. The new reviving gimmick will destroy partying even more, because a lot of people party so that if they die people will revive them.
Now there's no point, since people can't revive you (unless they pay for you, which is extremely unlikely).
OOO has done terrible things in the past (RSS, new UI), but this seriously might be the one that starts it's death.

I don't know why they even do 'testing feedback', they've never listen to ANYTHING negative there.

RIP co-op.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 11:01

#20

Traevelliath

I said this before, but...

I think the Spark system should be ADDED to the current system, instead of REPLACING the current system. I wouldn't mind having spark revs instead of energy revs, while still being able to do a health sharing rev. To me, the health sharing rev was the whole reason to party: you avoid having to spend energy when you die. However, being able to Spark Revive when you are in those situations where everyone is low health would be great.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 11:50

#21

Dementia-Praecox

I stick by my theory.

I believe they have a company policy to ignore all negative feedback even if it's well thought-out and reasonable, simply because they don't want to admit that they made a mistake. It's not that they never listen, it's just that they listen to the wrong people, namely themselves. They don't know what's best for us, because they never actually pay attention to us other than punishing us for questioning their almighty authority. Now, I'll bet my bottom dollar that this post will be deleted, edited, or this entire thread will be locked because we question their logic, which is questionable even before this update, and that's why I'm taking screenies of all this, both for reference and comedic fodder.

The health reviving system was perfectly fine as it was, everyone worked together. The loot collection system worked fine as it was, sure, you couldn't have every material or vial/capsule/vita dropped, but you could share them. No more being a nice guy by dropping a health or remedy capsule for your wounded teammate. The alchemy orb system is simply a money-grab tactic. The difficulty setting system is fantastic, though they need to balance the loot tables. The new missions are great, and the new boss is threatening without being off-putting or very easy, but some things such as Evo Catalysts need to be more adequately explained. The Battle Sprites are a mixed bag, half of their attacks being very underpowered or just redundant, and all tied together by a flawed cooldown system punishing you for using the third ability. All that said, this update is both good and bad, but the bad parts seriously need to be refined.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 12:01

#22

Draycos

Dementia, I keep telling myself, "maybe they'll listen this time". It's almost crazy to think that every single time they do something silly with the Testing Server, but even if there's the tiniest chance they do, save the rage for after the patch hits and not before they're done letting people fart around with it. I know, I know- the UI testing accomplished nothing, the Shard Bomb testing accomplished nothing, etc... there is very little reason to think that something good will happen, but everyone has already given every possible argument against the bad changes that are in this round of testing, so being a broken record probably won't do any good. Best thing to do is just wait.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 12:25

#23

Aphrodite

Community Manager

Please refrain from wild

Please refrain from wild speculation. This is the testing feedback forum, for discussing your experiences on the preview server.

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"It just ain't right!"