Spiral Knights - Listed Needle Gun Shot Count Questionable

Listed Needle Gun Shot Count Questionable

6 replies [Last post]

Tue, 07/09/2013 - 20:47

Destroyerofthenort

As you know, the needle shout line has been known for firing several shots with even one pull of the trigger... enough, in fact, that some can't even count it. The wiki has long been the only place with numbers sufficiently able to be called the official bullet count. However, between my attempts at disproving that needle shots are the only guns worth using in FSC (being kicked for not having one isn't even a rare situation anymore) and snooping around in spiral spy, i have evidence that threatens to question it's validity.

This started back when i formed an inquiry a while back based on damage values for the prisma driver compared to strike needle. I noted the needler to not be doing as much damage as has been implied, and that my gun had the unique property of ricocheting inside vana's hitbox; so out of contempt for linearity in loadouts, and the fact that this presented opportunity to eliminate said bandwagons; i did a statistical breakdown of the two. Removing all info irrelevant to this particular post, i found that the needle shot delivers significantly less than the listed shots per clip, as well as on charge. This was my first instance of noting the lower shot value

Now, my explorations in spiral spy found me figuring out OOO was efficient in coding the animations for the needle shot. Rather than making it repeat the animation, it plays one pre-looped one based on the shot type. This is where i get the larger part of my curiosity: The animations retain the names "attack_pistol_blend_fire_repeat5.dat", and "attack_pistol_blend_fire_repeat8.dat", which seem to be inconsistent with the wiki's listed 15 on charge and 6 on normal shot. Given that there is a possibility the animation does not align with the spawned number of bullet instances, and that it is also possible that i overlooked some rounds (my method of in-game testing that contradicts this was to enter the training hall, have someone shoot it, and at max range (where doing such is an easy task) count the bullets when spread out); it is entirely possible this means nothing. But considering the fact that one of these originates in the core files, and the fact that gaining info that questions existing bits in general is cause for letting it be known; I feel it necessary to start a thread on the matter.

Notice beforehand i am utilizing a steam account; and i am, thus, incapable of posting anything on the wiki myself, so any conclusions gained here will have to see implementation on the wiki by someone else. Now knowing this, proceed to discuss.

Tue, 07/09/2013 - 21:40

Zeddy

Does the regular attack have a canned animation for the whole thing? 'cause that seems weird seeing how the bullet spread is randomized.

Tue, 07/09/2013 - 23:41

Destroyerofthenort

@Zeddy

Noting your mention of the bullet spread, i can confirm that in the case of not just the needle shot but all weapons, projectiles are spawned with code. With all firing/attack animations, upon triggering: any VFX tagged to the weapon are generated, characters make necessary motions to perform the animations (as do the weapons), but any projectiles are generated as separate objects and are simply triggered either side-by-side with the animations, or tagged to a specific part of the animation (that, i can't confirm... snooping in core game code is not one of the software capabilities (most of the code is on OOO's end, anyway)).

The animations, by definition, do not include projectile generation as part of the loop. In short, no; the discharge of the needles is not canned alongside the animation sequence of the gun being fired and recoiling. I am sure there is something somewhere in the depths of the game code that could tell us if the gun fires in any sort of pattern tagged to the animation, but Spiral Spy has it's limits: It allows model previewing, environment building, animation sequencing, and even gives a bit of a look into the future whenever OOO pre-ports in relevant data to an update, as well as showing unreleased beta content... but not a shred of code may be accessed. Go figure :P

Wed, 07/10/2013 - 00:24

Zeddy

Looking in Spiral Spy is well and good, but I figured the only way to find out how many hits the guns do in the game is by counting the amount of hits the guns do in the game. I don't have a Needle Shot but I do a Volcanic Pepperbox. Unless Needle has less bullets than pepper for some reason, then the wiki numbers are entirely accurate.

Here's a couple of gifs showing the attacks in slow motion:

Regular attack. 6 hits.
Charge attack. 15 hits.

A couple of numbers are half-hidden behind other numbers, but I did my best to make them visible.

Wed, 07/10/2013 - 12:08

Little-Juances

"my attempts at disproving that that needle shots are the only guns worth using in FSC"

While saying that is a bit extreme and not entirely true, Vana is weak to piercing, and trojans die instantly to it.
You can't deny that. Blitz is just more usuefull and without it, the boss fight takes more time.
3 blitzers kicking you may do better than 3 blitzers and you with an antigua.

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 10:48

Destroyerofthenort

Picked the most minor part to talk on, bit may as well respond

The fact is that this fails to change that it is on the list of the 8 weapons people use out of all the weapons in the game. Period.

I have a burning hatred for weapon bandwagons in a game where we are supposed to (in my opinion) choose what we feel works with our playstyle, not what some biased guide overglorifies and construes as the greatest, most OP weapon ever devised. The hatred for me lies in the fact that they ARE seen as the only useful weapons, and the fact that no matter how good you are at using a magnus, or an alchemer, or a catalyzer; unless you have a blitz or trollaris, you will never be regarded for your skill, and forever ragged on for using "horrible weapons" that, in all honesty, just come with a user manual; and posted on 100 less billoards or so. Tell me there is any significant part off the community that doesn't use at least one of the following weapons:

Blitz, Divine Avenger, Gran Faust, Nitronome, Shivermist, Snarble Barb, Polaris, Warmaster's Rocket Hammer

Weapon glorification should not belong here, it is a matter of personal tastes in my opinion. That is why i am against the "best weapon" matter, because i am against mention of a "best weapon" in this game period. It is ridiculous that 8 weapons should be the only ones ever used out of at least 12 per weapon type, not even counting the different alchemy paths. Meanwhile weapons that are plenty able to do their job are depreciated because they are, again, slightly harder to use and dissed by a significant number of guides written by reflex-handicapped 7 year olds. I have crunched the numbers; the only weapon significantly deserving of being called "useless" is the cautery sword... admittedly, as far as horrible weapons go, there is a veritable "stick used as a weapon on plate armor" in every game. It has nothing above 3* and sacrifices damage against everything else for a damage bonus against jellies that, ironically, is worse than the same level shadow weapon. Of course it is worthless. But i would be willing to lay as much as 100 dollars on that i will never once go into haven to see an iron slug or sundraska.

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 11:45

Gzilla

@Destroyer

DA, GF, and Nitro aren't really used anymore. DA was really only used for it's charge, which was outdone by the brandish line. Speaking of, I think that the brandish line should be on that list. Incredibly long range with a charge attack, and instant crowd control makes it a pretty popular weapon. GF is hardly used too. The Acheron's the weapon to use against slimes and JK now, which once again is part of the brandish line. The GF has a risky charge, not to mention every swing leaves you open for attack if you missed an enemy. Which is why the Acheron is more used now.

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Listed Needle Gun Shot Count Questionable