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Why have sleep resistance without sleep status being a threat? (Sleep Monster Suggestion)

18 replies [Last post]
Fri, 07/19/2013 - 17:22
Destroyerofthenort's picture
Destroyerofthenort

It occurred to me that, despite jelly armor resisting it, and plate having a weakness to it, it seems we have yet to locate any current source of sleep attack. Looking into it, there was one for about 2 months (clearly not long: the mat it dropped is now worth more than a full 5* set for collectors.); these were the slooms. My guess was that they were considered an ill-devised foe, and so they were taken out. But if you are going to leave the residue from them existing, you had best to substitute. This one is, like the former one, weak to darkness... but i assure you, it is no slow-moving and unresponsive easy kill. This is instead operating off of a gremlin base. Thinking about it: in recent times, chemicals used in warfare are no rarity... and even in the renaissance, many a leader fell to vile chemicals. Why wouldn't our sentient wolf-like tinkerers jump on that train? This gremlin would spawn with large groups and fill a support role, spewing narcotic and suffocating inflammatory gasses from a back-strapped tank, as well as dropping chemical smoke bombs that weaken knights. But don't charge all at once, he is most certain to air blast you. Publicity blurb given, here are the more specific specs:

Gremlin Gasser
---------------------
These gremlins specialize in toxins of the volatile sort that can weaken or nauseate foes, even cutting off their ability to breathe. The tanks of poisons they carry are volatile enough that they are required to remove them when not in combat at penalty of arrest and excommunication out of fear of rebellion.

Mechanical Factors:
---------------------------
Type: Gremlin
Special: Can't dodge bullets like most gremlins, Slightly lower HP than most gremlins, Only found in T2+

Attacks:
----------
Attack 1: Festering Fog- the gremlin coats a 5x 3 (at widest point) cone in front of it of gasses that can cause throat swelling and suffocation. These gasses deal normal damage over time (at a rate of per 1/2 second) while within them, and can cause a sleep effect. Gas lingers for 6 seconds once sprayed before quickly dissipating

Attack 2: Gas Bomb- this bomb contains a vile chemical compound covering the area comparable to arsenic. Does similar effects to that of a toxic vaporizer, sharing radius and damage type, as well as causing the poison status, and even time before the attack expires; but deals damage over time while in it's area of effect at a per second rate, and at T2 it's damage is divided between elemental and normal (becomes full elemental at T3

Attack 3: Air Blast- because compressed air is required to operate the "gas gun", it should come as no surprise that a second use was found to allow it to function for more than one thing… (what good tool can only do one thing anyway?) when surrounded, the gremlin may move to knock the knights away from him with a well-timed air blast. This attack is unique from any other in the game: it does no damage, and no status; it's only purpose is to knock all knights in front of him away. This attack is a situational occurrence, and will only trigger if his path is blocked, or he is surrounded at close range by more than 2 knights at once. The attack knocks the knights back about 4 blocks away, and briefly holds them in place (about .5 seconds), similarly to the battle pod's knockback attack

Use Health Capsule: Type is based on tier

Art not included yet, but the idea at the moment is am retexture of the gremlin scorcher. Any thoughts?

EDIT: Removed immunity to sleep and poison; removed vulnerability to fire

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 19:16
#1
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances

I never saw an enemy vulnerable to a neutral status unless you count melted ice cubes.
Shock deals elemental damage, that's a different story...

"This attack is unique from any other in the game: it does no damage, and no status; it's only purpose is to knock all knights in front of him away"
Menders do that. Battlepods too.

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 19:27
#2
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

The problem with sleep wasn't the monsters that inflicted it, it was the status itself.

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 20:34
#3
Destroyerofthenort's picture
Destroyerofthenort
Replies

@ Little-Juances

Noting your post, it seems you were confused. Not sure how you managed it, but you seem to have misinterpreted. To elaborate, compare the term "vulnerable" to putting on a chaos cloak. It means the fire is more likely to take effect, the required strength to inflict the status would be lower, and it has more effect against it. and yes... left that other note up on accident. I thought i had removed that... i even noted the battle pod later on in.

As for reasons why i placed the fire vulnerability (if THAT is what you intended to ask): grab the nearest aerosol can, and put a match in front of it. Spray it. Better still, save yourself a little bit of shrapnel in the arm and read the warning label. The same applies with all compressed air containers and, indeed, flammable gasses. It is a logical weakness, and to save time with balancing (beyond the fact that damage values and health were left open), it only seems right to take advantage of them.

@Kiplik

Looking over what sleep does, i don't see much issue in the status itself. I see it plenty viable as a combat mechanism when properly executed for npc's, leaving the knight still and unable to defend would open him up to attacks that are more damaging, with a balance found in a minor regeneration and the inability to be knocked back... essentially a version of freeze that works much better at the job it was intended for with the removal of the status itself doing damage; hence the support role i specifically stated it takes on. It would add it's effect of actually aiming to BE a balance point on plate mail (not that it ISN'T bad enough to deal with moving slowly... that is already sufficient enough for me anyway...), and give an actual reason to even touch a piece of jelly armor, as right now there are other armors that don't make me want to gouge my eyes out looking at them, and do the same defensive job with a better status resistance lineup (heck, the most overused armor in the game is on that list). Did it simply perform less than expectancy when applied to players? I would like elaboration onto the topic of the status's issues.

Besides, if they intend to remove it forever, then why make it so that jelly armor, and plate mail as of now still fail to accordingly be made to reflect that the status will never see a return. They opened themselves to this, and i think the idea of having a monster that fulfills a support role for a change is also a pretty good one. Hence, i made this. If we aren't seeing the status return, there should most certainly be a revision of the status lineup for jelly equipment.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 02:35
#4
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

the problem of sleep is that is you are in a party, some can keep monsters at bay while you sleep (and heal). infinite regen is what OOO was trying to stop.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 05:38
#5
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Destroyerofthenort

Gremlins are resistant to fire and shock, and weak to poison and freeze. I don't know what you think you're doing by changing this around.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 06:59
#6
Blitzsonic's picture
Blitzsonic
How about removing the

How about removing the "getting health back" from the sleep status and add the "sleep jelly" enemies again ?

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 10:44
#7
Misty-Wellington's picture
Misty-Wellington
zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba

How about removing the "getting health back" from the sleep status and add the "sleep jelly" enemies again ?

Because then you have an overpowered Freeze which doesn't wear off when attacked. If what people are saying is correct, that it was removed because players were exploiting the health regen, then an easy fix for it would be that Sleep should only be inflicted when physically attacked and remove the passive, nondamaging Sleep Mist. In T3 especially, the health regen would be minimal compared to the damage taken.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:15
#8
Destroyerofthenort's picture
Destroyerofthenort
Replies... again!

@Hexzyle

It only seemed to make sense... if you are USING volatile toxins, wouldn't make much sense if you, yourself could be affected by them, no? Simply put, these were decisions that seemed right at the time for reasons of logic. Much like the Gorgos differentiate a rather decent bit from the typical members of the fiend family, being more slow and lumbering as opposed to fast; as well as performing more close-ranged attacks (which standard fiends will not execute given the opportunity to do otherwise). Every change made here has a little bit of logical reasoning to it... if you are wearing an hazmat suit and rebreather to handle your weapon, it will be a little hard to poison you, now won't it? Keeps the balance, but instills logic other than video game logic. Simple.

@Misty

when physically attacked and remove the passive, nondamaging Sleep Mist

Wording may have been a little confusing (or were you referring to that being what the old sleep foe did?)... the mist this creature uses causes damage over time while in it... this damage is recieved in the form of normal damage. This is at a currently unlisted amount (Leaving open-ended so OOO can do that for balance) at a rate of X amount per 1/2 second while in the mist. This means the regen is already counteracted in this. Though it on it's own would not be able to work as a very formidable foe, it can certainly undo that nice little regen of yours.

Also, as far as i know, it does wear off when attacked. I don't think i have ever seen foes get attacked while sleeping and not get back up. As for the reason i went about it the way i did, I would find a creature taking a supportive role much more interesting even if i don't use the armors mentioned, a unique creature and a nice way of delivering this, hence i chose something that wasn't meant to dish out massive damage, but it does inflict the status in a way that works, i think. A unique and clever way of going about implementing it that finally makes it so the jelly armor sees some use. I gave it some foresight, to say the least.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 19:53
#9
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

No gremlins are immune to any status, not even Knockers, regardless of the floor's theme: That's the trait of that family.
They make up for this with resistance to the most commonly used damage type and the best healers the clockworks has to offer.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 22:28
#10
Destroyerofthenort's picture
Destroyerofthenort
Well, i see your point

Very well then, suppose it only makes sense...

EDIT!

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 22:32
#11
Destroyerofthenort's picture
Destroyerofthenort
Feel free to keep it coming

Feel free to keep it coming with suggestions to build on this until you feel this well-rounded enough for implementation. I would like some community input on my suggestions, as i may think them out as well as i want; but in the end, i suppose if you have logical reason for a change to something or it is a widespread opinion, it only makes sense that the change is made.

Yes, this does mean i have more. Alert the media.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 07:33
#12
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
WHY NOT A NEW STATUS?

Why not make a new status instead of trying to fix this old one, I mean we all know that is it broken and would just be a over powered freeze.
I would love to see a status that would I dunno, reverse controls? Blur screen? Reduced vision? Common people, we honestly won't get sleep back into the game so why not make a new one?

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 07:37
#13
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

well, to save the devs to make brand new monsters or new names of monsters. save them work. also, getting some old players back for some seconds before they see the new UI and pets.

Mon, 07/22/2013 - 20:49
#14
Destroyerofthenort's picture
Destroyerofthenort
Seems this has been

Seems this has been overlooked... we'll have to fix that, won't we?

Bumpity Bump!

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 07:37
#15
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
oh u

Nice job breaking the rules Destroyer, glad to know you are fallowing the forum guidelines so terribly.

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 09:18
#16
Destroyerofthenort's picture
Destroyerofthenort
*Sigh* so... you are THAT forum goer

Well, how about we go here

Out of at least 20 threads on this site that have done the same thing (mind you, without OOO actually caring), you pick this one to proceed to go about whining to. If you don't like the idea and just want it graveyarded, it would be much nicer if you had simply provided criticism that lent to me the answer as to why. Moreover, the wording of that post made it appear as though i am some massive rule-breaker. Beyond posting my opinions on the update (which i wasn't sure was a crime, then remembered this was the internet), this is the best thing you could cite for that. That would be like pointing out that in your post, you said "fallowing", while it is actually supposed to be "following" and stating that you have the grammar and spelling capabilities of a 6 year old. I believe we are done here.

Besides, I actually put a bit of meaningful text to it. It wasn't entirely a shameless bump; i was simply requesting more feedback and opinions on the idea overall, which i have yet to receive. If i am going to be dragged out and torched for requesting feedback or having opinions, then make sure you put on some extra coals. Don't want to be making it through, after all, if that is what things have come to.

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 10:56
#17
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
lol u

I did provide criticism for this suggestion. It was "Why not make a new status instead of trying to fix this old one, I mean we all know that is it broken and would just be a over powered freeze." RIGHT THERE I say that this ill be just be over powered.
In case you did not notice I was saying that you can't add sleep into the game with out it either being brokenly good for the players only, or brokenly over powered by just being a stronger freeze.
If you don't want me to call you out on bumping, bump threads that are actually worth while. A thread trying to get something into the game that would just be broken is not something worth bumping. How would sleep be broken? It would just either be abused to heal players or a stronger freeze, or it wouldn't cause heals any more and just be a brokenly strong freeze. Either out come is stupidly broken and will be abused.
-puts on anti-rage helm-

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 11:44
#18
Draycos's picture
Draycos

Sleep was removed from the game, excluding vials, because its healing effect was being abused by players to safely heal and because it was a more frustrating status effect to be hit by than Shock.

If I remember correctly, the developers said they wanted to rework it, which is why Sleep-resisting gear still exists. You used to be able to get Sleep UVs on your gear, but they patched that out. It's been a couple years or so since they benched Sleep, so I wonder when they'll do anything with it, at all.

@Waffle You do realize complaining about someone bumping their thread is giving them another free bump that is also off-topic? :P

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