Spiral Knights - 0 reason to party up with the next patch!

0 reason to party up with the next patch!

39 replies [Last post]

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:23

Wolf-Fighter

So OOO said we have 0 reasons to not party up? thats wrong it's the opposite of it.

Why we have no reasons anymore?

- No one can revive me anymore with health
- They can't collect crowns or heat for me
- I don't get more loot
- more players= stronger enemys with more life
- Can't give me heat
- Can't drop their health pills for me
- have to collect all by my own(yes i get all by my own too but honestly it's not more now)

i bet where are more reasons ....
but honestly i don't see why i should party up after this patch ... no health rev=no reasons
i think i can't do a shadow lair anymore (i know some players run shadow lairs solo ...)
but my team died about 5 times(every palyer) per level and had on the end still full live without rev with energie cause we found hearts and can rev all the time...
I hope OOO don't ignore this this time , but honestly they will do like all the other times ,
and why you have time for this OOO but can't give us back the tortodrones? or open the core? or bring back the giant green jellis, 8 members of the crimson order?

I just say this time don't do it! don't remove the health revs. 1 free rev is no option for health revs. all new players can't realy play if they often die.
and lot's of the old players don't like this too, just please hear 1 time to the community and don't make it.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:29

Worknplay

If you're reasons to party up

If you're reasons to party up with people are only all in all to leech them, yes, at the next update, you won't have any reasons to party up anymore. Thanks OOO for making it much, much harder for leeches. That will raise the skill bar of players and finally put the weaks where they belong, in easier parties, where they can hone their skills in wait to be accepted by stronger parties.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:30

Redblades

^elitism

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:34

Wolf-Fighter

leech what?

hahaha i just die in shadow lairs i don't died in the last 30 runs xD im 1 of the oldest palyers
i just now that some player sometimes die by a accident and this more than 1 time pr level... not cause they are bad they can have a lagg or misclick or whatever...
by the way i run most time alone cause the enemys dies much faster and i have more loot :D
but why should i party up i have no advantage anymore after this patch

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:34

Klockworx

...

More players = stronger enemies, stronger enemies = more loot. Its the standard RPG element to any video game. Also Reviving via sparks of life is actually a lot cheaper than everyone thinks, and they have a chance of dropping in the clockworks for free. Also you don't need them to drop their health pills because whenever a pill drops everyone can get it, and its not like you backtrack for better pills, vitas, etc already. Granted you cant give your friends heat anymore, but that was more of an exploit than a feature. I'm pretty sure it wasn't intended to be used that way.

Also new players can indeed pay for revives seeing as they're fairly inexpensive so its not to bad, also i'm an old player and, i admit at first i didn't really care for the new stuff. But after testing the features on the test server, i have started liking the newer system better than the old one.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:37

Neodasus

Why would I play alone? That

Why would I play alone? That sounds terrible, and a very quiet experience...

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:39

Worknplay

Give it some thought. Dying

Give it some thought. Dying once will be tolerable, which allows for those unfortunate accidents. The rest of the time, players will have to be way more serious and trained to make it harder places such as Shadow Lairs. If you're indeed one of the oldest players (grin) you sure as hell are someone who saw everything and is not gonna have any issue with that new reviving system. Meanwhile, other players will have all reasons to hone their skills and gears appropriately in order not to be the dead weight in their parties; because no one will be able to carry them anymore.
And here's why I think you sound like a leech:
- No one can revive me anymore with health
- They can't collect crowns or heat for me
- Can't give me heat
- Can't drop their health pills for me
Me, for me, me, for me.

Here's a second point of view and based on my experience in party playing: players NEVER care for their health, and constantly try so hard to keep their health pills, until they end up dying and having one of their mates reviving them. With this update, maybe everyone will finally learn the importance of remaining at a safe level of health rather than being the badass that still has all his pills (but died twice).

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 13:48

Wolf-Fighter

ok i don't know how high the

ok i don't know how high the drop rate is cause i don't played on the test server but i bet it's about 1 % per level so nearly nothing ,or do you found 2 in a level? i want realy to hear how high the drop rate is

and yes i write me cause why should i write for teammates? ok sure i collect things for theam too but i just see it from a vana run ,for example: 2th vanaduke level each player do a gate so i have to go in every gate on the end instead of just doing my 3 or 4 gates
also we have heat revive achivments i think i will loose the achivments cause no one can't do this anymore and i don't joined random partys in the last year just done with my guild or friends...
- can't drop heart pills

you never saw players leaving in a vana run? it is normal that all who leaves drop all their pills... for the who don't have 3 yet
i left sometimes 2 and droped all my pills but who doesen't?
if i see it from the teamside : i helped today 2 friends by a mission and they died about 2-4 times .... so i revived theam... sure they die faster after every cause they have lower life... but they can still fight without paying energie

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 14:07

Gravelord-Caste

Laughter is the countdown to devastation

From what I can see, this patch is just going to turn members in parties from players into competent, semi-permanent Mecha Knights. People aren't going to rev their friends - why should they?

I can imagine a lot of people are going to get kicked for not reviving themselves.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 14:33

Thinslayer

Try another train of thought...

I wouldn't put it that way, Gravelord. The main advantage of parties is still to kill things faster; that isn't lost. It also contributes to survival by 1) killing things faster so they don't have as many chances to hurt you and 2) teamwork, making the killing easier and this reducing risks of death. Fringe benefits, like heat and reviving (not quite so "fringe"), are just that - fringe benefits, icing on the cake. Even without the impulsive revving, we still need our squadmates to survive better, so if reviving is tougher, we have a stronger incentive to protect them.

Enter the Seraphinx.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 14:40

#10

Juances

If you're worried about dying, aren't they adding a difficulty option too?

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 14:41

#11

Canine-Vladmir

I like Glitchedpixel's logic better.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 15:09

#12

Wolf-Fighter

i don't worry about dieng -.-

i don't worry about dieng -.- i will play on the highest difficilt cause of better loot...(and cause im bored of the easy solo vana runs) but still i hate it with the new rev ... i never said i die all the time and i don't wanted to show off with i never die... (i die sometimes but just sometimes and i don't need 1 rev every level...) just that you understand now that's not just for me!

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 15:09

#13

Gravelord-Caste

/reply Thinslayer

1) killing things faster so they don't have as many chances to hurt you and 2) teamwork, making the killing easier and this reducing risks of death.

Those two points are the same thing XD Faster is easier, and less chances to hurt is reduced risk of death. Still two points, just turned into two different ways of saying it.

Even without the impulsive revving, we still need our squadmates to survive better, so if reviving is tougher, we have a stronger incentive to protect them.

Actually, y'know what I said before about this patch turning players into Mecha Knights? I was wrong: they already are Mecha Knights, just with brains, proper weapons and voice boxes.

/r Thread: I also re-read Glitchedpixel's post, and there's only one flaw in it: the new rev system is more expensive and less at the same time: it stops the escalating cost of CE revs, but at the same time, aside from the only free rev, we have to use a consumable to rev (I can't remember if it takes a SoL to rev downed members), whereas for now we can spread out our health, which can be replenished, more often than not immediately.

Also, I just realized that, if vials and the like are affected, it'd be possible to get 12 Mecha Knights (the s**t ones, not the ones that talk to you) at one time, which'd be quite epic, considering the fact it probably hasn't been possible before.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 15:20

#14

Thinslayer

@Gravelord

They are actually different concepts, but I didn't make that clear.

1. The increased damage dealt by new party members is double the corresponding enemy health increase. There is a net increase in total damage dealt by additional party members, even without teamwork, assuming everyone does nearly equal damage.

2. Depending on party skill, teamwork efforts on the part of the members makes said killing easier and safer, in addition to the pre-existing damage increase.

So even if your party sucks, if everyone does their part, you'll still come out ahead.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 15:47

#15

No-Thanks

*-pet buffs will be a reason to party up
*-it does sound like therll be less reasons to party up
*-its not a big deal
*-have u ever been kicked from a sk party for an actual reason? like what 0.00001% of all ur kicks?

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 15:48

#16

Randomzz

inb4 lock and GY

@ Worknplay:
- No one can revive me anymore with health >>> I can no longer help my guildies heat their items quickly. Also, I probably will no longer play until my desktop gets fixed in a few weeks since I (and anyone else with subpar specs or bad lag) will only be a weight to my team as apposed to a slightly frail member.
- They can't collect crowns or heat for me >>> Instead of splitting up, like in vana D25, EVERY memeber now has to go to EVERY room in order to actually get all their loot. Defeats the purpose of acting as a team if you still have to spend almost the same time going through everything.
- Can't give me heat >>> I now have no use for going in a team in anything except vana and SL because anything else I can "solo" with 3 dead teammates. Now that those teammates provide little benefit for me (cr/ce is meanningless at my point, I only care about heat so I can make a collection of every 5* wep and gear in the game) why should I carry them?
- Can't drop their health pills for me >>> Can't receive health compensation (or give it) for carrying a team.

Those reasons sound like a leech to you because you want them to, but it doesn't change the fact those reasons are valid for a variety of purposes.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 16:07

#17

Klockworx

...

Sparks of Life are said to be sold in the Supply Depot. in "Bulk", so in continuing with the usage of the term, it usually means that you can buy more for less. Meaning that it would actually be cheaper to buy sparks of life in bulk sessions than paying 10 ce every time you or your friends go down in the clockworks.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 20:46

#18

Byas

> And here's why I think you sound like a leech:
- No one can revive me anymore with health
- They can't collect crowns or heat for me
- Can't give me heat
- Can't drop their health pills for me
Me, for me, me, for me.

Yeah, because everyone should be an altruist and go into parties for the benefit of others instead of themselves. Even more of a reason to party if you don't get anything good out of it, hell yeah altruism.

On a serious note, I'm not sure yet if I'm gonna play exclusively solo or just stop playing when the update hits (probably not forever since some time or another nostalgia will kick back and I'm gonna check the game). All I know is that I really don't like the direction the game is going and the removal of health revives would be "the last drop" for me to lose my hope on it.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 19:48

#19

Bzzts

I'd just like to point out that many of you are forgetting that health revives were free, and that no matter how miniscule the cost of sparks, its more than it was. If players die more than once they'll HAVE to pay to revive themselves.

However some of us not using mist everyday may even be able to stockpile revives, depending on the bulk price, which makes me wonder whether they ever thought of changing the system already in place.

And you guys can't deny, unless you're with friends or people you know that are decent, you wouldn't want to random party with people. So now there's that little incentive that makes you think especially hard about whether you want to party with people now.

One point no one can dispute though, is the fact that these features are not promoting team play as intended.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 20:09

#20

Orbwanter

And you guys can't deny, unless you're with friends or people you know that are decent, you wouldn't want to random party with people.

Speak for yourself, I prefer random parties for everything except Shadow Lairs. Meeting strangers with oddball gear preferences is fun, and it's always nice to have someone you don't know compliment you on your costume/skill/weapon choice.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 22:16

#21

Heavy-Dragon

I am inclined to side with worknplay...

But not quite.

There are less reasons for teaming up for knights in scenarios where they must depend on other players to carry them. I think this was OOO's intent, as the game is team based and this revamp will compel knights to consider when a teammate is hindering or helping their party. They'll still be revivable, but the means to do so has changed so that decisions have a more lasting impact than just a few pips of health.

When this system is implemented, a knight that cannot keep themselves well protected will make other players consider "Should I revive this knight now, even though I might need to revive myself in the future? Should I just leave him down until the next floor, where he will be revived automatically?". pulling your own weight is now mandatory, which I encourage; but that does not necessarily mean that the weak knights will be forced to play with each other.

Do you see the implications of this? If knights become reserved about revving at the same time that collecting your own loot and materials becomes mandatory, knights are in effect being encouraged to try to stay alive in any way possible, as any death in a party without a revive handy means you miss out on the rest of the crowns and mats for that level.

I anticipate pill fighting to come with this, but I certainly welcome the challenge.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 22:20

#22

Qwao

@Heavy-Dragon Pill fighting won't happen because each loot is instanced, from crowns and heat to materials down right to vitapods and vials. At least that's what I think someone wrote...

And apparently you can't drop stuff anymore? Not sure.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 22:43

#23

Heavy-Dragon

If pills are instantiated

Hell yes, then. bring on the sparks.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 02:07

#24

Worknplay

@Randomzz The D25 Vanaduke

@Randomzz The D25 Vanaduke example has got to be the most overrated reason against loot instanciation. This level doesn't represent 1% of the content of SK overall and as such shouldn't even be mentionned. In 99% of the clockworks you'll be running alongside with your teammates. Maybe, but just maybe this updates also intends to make knights gather rather than split.

@Byas I do actually like to be the guy carrying the party, given they're all noobs. Yes, altruism is something one should have; I cannot see any better way to encourage altruism but teach players the importance of not dying and being a weight to others, which is clearly one intent of this update.

I'm rooting for (so I've heard there are different meanings to that according to wether you're doing UK or US english. By rooting for I mean supporting) every part of this update; this is an update that is going to raise the bar and put players where they belong according to their level of skills and gears. I'm not quite sure you realize how much just ONE free revive is for a party; I don't believe players delving into clockworks designed for their level will need to use reviving more than once.

As for shadow lairs, which indeed are real hard, maybe common players will also learn to survive them better (which is actually better, videos of solo no-death SL are well available around Youtube) and just, again, raise the bar.

I don't quite recall I heard stuffs couldn't be dropped anymore. Is that a test server spoiler? This was completely unannounced by GM's so far!

It's really ALL about raising the bar!

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 04:38

#25

Drestroy

So I have to get the crowns If I join a party it doesn't share the crowns anymore? And do we get revives as drops in clockworks? Thanks.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 04:46

#26

Theirillusion

"This level doesn't represent 1% of the content of SK overall and as such shouldn't even be mentionned"

Many players would highly dissagree on that, including me. Charred court was already the most time consuming depth in fsc. But i'm bigger than that, I see far more good things with the new update. The loot update will stop people from dragging alternates for example.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 06:17

#27

Wolf-Fighter

free revives to drop xD i

free revives to drop xD i think you have about 0,0001% to become 1 in a tier 3 run xD thats how we know OOO i just remember the shadow keys from lockboxes hahahahaha what a money waste if you buy 20 keys and foun 0 sl keys(well i don't bought many keys only about 5 but some persons bought so much)

and why should i write from a point for my team? i mean i just talked about why I should have a reason to party up? yes for a friend...
but if no friend is online i have absolut 0 reasons. cause of this i said, im better on my own and sure i help my guild and my friends but i have no reason for random partys now

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 08:03

#28

Byas

> I do actually like to be the guy carrying the party, given they're all noobs. Yes, altruism is something one should have; I cannot see any better way to encourage altruism but teach players the importance of not dying and being a weight to others, which is clearly one intent of this update.

Nah, more like this update will promote individualism since people won't spend their stuff to resurrect others nor risk losing health to help a companion.
He was talking that the update will end with reasons to party, which for him, me and most of the players are the benefits in comparison to soloing, without the "bonuses" he talked about I might as well go solo and get the same benefits from being with a party with the extra that I won't risk missing some loot because I forgot to check a place when wasting my time running around the map nor do I risk facing a greater challenge with no benefits thanks to useless team members that I may find on PUGs. The altruist part was a joke with getting no actual benefit while risking getting more downsides than when soloing just to help someone you don't even know.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 07:53

#29

Haendler

Thanks

Oh realy thanks that 1 speak the truth... Byas thats a good point... and isn't it teamwork to pass a level with every player and help each other?
yes we can help without rev theam but if a player just 2 times dies (so no free rev) we can still easy revive him with health and thats not a big health loose and you can't call it leech by dieing 2 times...
and maybe worknplay is just so pro that he dies never and finishes even a shadow liar without loosing 1 health... honestly i don't understand why he is so hard against the arguments for all who said the health rev remove is stupid

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 08:03

#30

Quinzal

Its all about

Its all about convenience.
Would it be convenient to play in a party and have to get all materials yourself, or just play alone and not need to bother?
Would it be convenient to health revive and both have the same amount of health, or use a spark of life to get more HP than you might of had?
Would it be convenient to have more difficult monsters in a party, or play by yourself and 1-hit everything?

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 08:16

#31

Wolf-Fighter

hey i bet you found the spark

hey i bet you find the sparks of life in the ammount i find weapons in this game(so free weapons)

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 10:31

#32

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Quiet Thespychecker. The drop rate hasn't been put in the testing server yet. Stop being hypercritical.

EDIT: Also, personally I think that if you get kicked for not reviving yourself, you shouldn't be in that party, because it's probably filled with selfish jerks anyway. >.<

There are several sprite abilities which go a long way to contributing to party play, so that will help.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 08:58

#33

Orangeo

Are me and Neodasus the only

Are me and Neodasus the only people who are down with partying up for no reason other than "being social" and meeting new people? I mean really, if you enjoy writing on forums, you ought to try talking to people in game as well.

Plus there's allot more you can do as a team, even if monsters are scaled up proportionally.

That being said, I dislike this patch since it actually gives people reasons to NOT party up, like Grave said in his first post. I'm already imagining people getting kicked for not reviving themselves. I don't think there needs to be a reason to party up, but there can't be a reason to prefer not partying without messing up the game on some level.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 11:13

#34

Gravelord-Caste

Laughter is the countdown to devastation

Well, since this is on topic (and I have to type this out... again, no thanks to the freaking forums), I decided to reread this post. There's two points here I want to talk about:

This change means that there are zero reasons to NOT party with others. You’ll get the same amount of loot regardless of party size.

I get the impression that Three Rings doesn't like people soloing, and therefore are trying to force us into partying. That's the sort of vibe I'm getting from this.

Our observations show that health sharing to revive downed party members ends up being detrimental to teams working to complete levels; diluting overall team health to the point of team members being repeatedly one-shotted in combat.

This statement kinda makes the situation in practice sound a lot worse than it is, although this might be due to my interpretation of "repeatedly one-shotted".

This post might not hold water, and as such, you might want to just ignore what I just said.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 17:02

#35

Thunderbirdva

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of this.

I didn't read all the replies, but this is exactly what I thought about the new update. For me, Spiral Knights is a social game, and if bringing friends just makes the game harder, I'm gonna be playing a lot less.

My question is...how does this improve the game?

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 20:06

#36

Taeloh

People are severely

People are severely underestimating the amount of minerals it will take to level your battle sprite in a "reasonable" amount of time.

4 players = more minerals = faster leveling for battle sprites.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 21:03

#37

Waffleconecake

I want to stab every alt farmer in the throat with my DVS.

Who this new update "hurts": Alt farmers, blitznubs, leeches.
Who this new update "helps": Good players, Soloists, actual party members.

Who is complaining about this new update: Alt farmers, nubs, leeches.
I wounder if there is a connection.

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 21:09

#38

Stelli

<(O.O)>

Reason one: I have friends

Sun, 07/21/2013 - 21:23

#39

Dragonicblaze

This Update..

I am one of those guys who likes to only party with my friends who I know are the best in the game. Saying that, I hate this update, I want to know I can trust my friends and do crazy stuff in my party.

With this update

1. I will have to be super safe and literally be nuby using all the extra pills I find
2. Walking around the whole map picking loot
3. Sticking to my buddies like an EFFING noob
4. Not being able to let my trusted friends handle part of the map while the others handle the other parts..

so YEAH for pros this update SUCKS, no more FAST runs, no matter how pro you are and how pro you make your party, you will ALL have to stick together like this nooby little group and fight the evil that comes near you and pick up ALL the loot by yourself.

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0 reason to party up with the next patch!