Spiral Knights - Dark Retribution is Maybe some what over powered?

Dark Retribution is Maybe some what over powered?

49 replies [Last post]

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 11:12

Sketchturner

Never do I run Prestige missions solo
but I'm Gonna now cause of my beauty the Dark Retribution.
I don't like to Give tips or anything to playing this game, but this bomb seems way too OP against giant monsters like battle pods.
Whilst diving like You do I decided to try out my DR on some monster for a laugh, and DAMN. I did not expect this out come.
well, the damage isn't Up from that of an elemental weapon, but the DPS on it is just Over powered, I was hitting at least 20 times a second,

If you wanna see that check this vid link

Watch it's over powered ness

Now you've done that read my message again diagonally down to the right from the first word.

but seriously, any one else thinks this bomb is a little too good?

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 11:27

Grittle

Please no Bombers are already

Please no

Bombers are already nerfed beyond recognition, plz. dont nerf

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 11:35

Draycos

And yet people have stopped complaining about swords.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 11:38

Snipm

Plz No

They nerfed it once already, it takes about +Med damage to get it back up to pre-nerf damage.

Another problem is a lack of shadow damage bombs. DR is DLC, Graviton is a utility, and shards are unpredictable with long fuse(s).

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 11:52

Sketchturner

Well the thing is, A bomb you

Well the thing is, A bomb you can place and run, a sword you can't so you expect a sword to do more damage, but this bomb does so much damage I can solo the Jelly king in 34seconds without needing to poison or anything, even if I'm carrying 3 newbies with me, but having said that this is an issue only with the BIG monsters, the small ones it's actually ok

Well I am playing with it in a Chaos set which makes it Max Ctr and damage with my trinket, but it just seems it hits a big monster 10 times per milisecond

I should point out it has the inverse effect on small creatures

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 12:08

Narfle

-1

You're using a 5*, expansion-only bomb on a slow moving t2 boss--of course it's going to seem OP, and especially with ctr and dmg from chaos. It is not OP in its appropriate tier, or on most enemies. Try running down to jelly with an appropriate 2/3* set, grab your dark reprisal II, and tell me if it's still OP.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 12:12

Sketchturner

Compared to the sword doing

Compared to the sword doing jelly in about 1 minute? about double the time? and I have tried it in tier 3, I just used it to clean three battle pods out in 5 seconds a piece, or did you not read the original post before commenting?

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 12:13

Zeddy

I'm just glad people stopped saying the bomb the is underpowered.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 12:19

Sketchturner

Bombs aren't underpowered, I

Bombs aren't underpowered, I believe they are an incredibly useful tool, esp to a group run, the only reason I'm saying this one is OP is cause it out DPS's a sword on Big creatures, when the sword is supposed to be the most powerful, even whilst using the same Max Damage situation.

I think the reason most people think bombs are underpowered is cause they don't do big chunks of damage, but my VT bomb can clear a pack of zombies without me risking any scratch on myself, by doing 29 damage a hit from shock, which hits all around, etc etc, each zombie shocked deals around 290 damage overall, and that adds up quickly.

Whereas the sword requires you to get nastily close to them all, but deals more damage, it's risk / reward, but the DR seems to have little risk, aswell as a high reward, given that though, this seems to be the only decent DD shadow bomb as pointed out earlier, and again, has the inverse effect on the smaller enemies like hordes.

Summary: Bombs are a crowd Killer, DR can out dps a sword on a big enemy, which shouldn't be happening imo.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 12:24

Narfle

what's with the snark?

Yes, I read your OP, as I read your comment saying that you can off JK with a dark ret in 34 second with max CTR and VH dmg, and I'm saying, of course you can... because you're using a 5* bomb with max CTR and VH dmg in tier 2. So again: you make no mention of trying the same thing with the 3* dark reprisal II--try using equips that are actually intended for that tier, and tell me if you think it's OP. Can the dark ret take out a battlepod quickly? Of course it can--the battlepod can't run away...

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 12:38

#10

Sketchturner

Ok clearly you're not getting

Ok clearly you're not getting this, With a Sword, it takes a minute, a sword is supposed to be the highest DPS in the game, and a sword has trouble killing the battle pod, aswell, taking three or so shield drops, the DR, destroys the JK in half the time of the sword, and kills a battle pod in 1 drop, meaning it has almost double the DPS of the sword, which is supposed to have the highest DPS in the game,

The sword I used, was an archeron, a 5*, so what's the difference in doing the same thing in lower gear to get 2 minutes and 4 minutes?

Also the snark, is pointing out the JK is not the only thing I think it's more powerful against, it's powerful against all big monsters

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 12:54

#11

Krakob

DR is OP, yup. Know what else is? Final Flourish, Barbarous Thorn Blade, Combuster, Voltedge, Glacius, Divine Avenger, Warmaster Rocket Hammer, Acheron, Blitz Needle, Nova Driver, Magma Driver, Storm Driver, Hail Driver, Umbra Driver, Shivermist Buster, Elextron Vortex, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Cautery Sword!

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 12:56

#12

Narfle

You're using a maxed out 5* set with your 5* dark ret on a boss intended for a maximum of 3* gear. Put on a chroma set, take off your 5* trinks, pull out your 3* dark rep II, and tell me if it's still OP. Saying, 'zomg, I killed JK with maxxxx dark ret zo OP!!1!!' is like saying 'zomg, I cut up eggplant wit chainsaw zo OP!!1!!' and same thing with battlepods. The mechanics of the dark ret line make it good at one thing: dealing damage to targets that are slow moving or stationary--as you already mentioned, things like mini-jellies just walk on by, and I would add that damage is significantly less again enemies with a faster walk speed and no dodge, and grems and beasts dodge it. It is not OP, it is just good at doing one specific thing.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 13:01

#13

Silverdeoxys

If anything,

you should be grateful something you bought with your own money is that good.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 13:22

#14

Sketchturner

ok, I'm not bothering to

ok, I'm not bothering to respond to narfle, he doesn't seem to understand anything I'm telling him, I've already told him 3 times that's not the issue, and told him three different ways what is, so I give up bothering to tell him something since he just does not understand.

and I'm grateful for it, it's just too good on big creatures as it out DPS's swords , buff the small creature damage, lower the big ones imo, and those weapons are OP, that's just claiming all weapons are, I'm distinctly talking about in bombs sets, it's almost a must to be carrying, as it brings out the highest dps except against undead and fiends, *as it's shadow damage*

Hell if this animation was on Piercing and Elemental, I wouldn't bother equipping any other bomb

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 13:30

#15

Narfle

Haha, ok dude, whatever you say ;) Other posters take note: the star of your gear and the bonuses it confers should not be taken into consideration in this discussion. So, taking that as a given, what other items do we need to nerf?

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 13:58

#16

Fehzor

Its on par with the brandish lines.

Its like what the shard bombs should have been. Satisfying to use, effective, easy to understand, doesn't harm the team mates, good single target damage for turrets, high flinch rate, nice crowd control, the list goes on.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 14:15

#17

Sketchturner

Haha, ok dude, whatever you

I'm comparing like Sword to a like level bomb -_- are you handicapped?

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 14:21

#18

Narfle

Wow, that's a really crappy, offensive thing to say.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 14:32

#19

Sketchturner

Really not being offensive,

Really not being offensive, I'm genuinely asking, I have explained it three times, and you don't change what you've said at all, if you were handicapped, dyslexic like me for example, I could atleast understand and try again, I am handicapped, I'm dyslexic, is there something offensive about me?

Edit: also if the inverse is true, then you are just being willingly ignorant

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 14:32

#20

Shotjeer

Turning this thread away from dangerous grounds

Yes, DR is OP. The problem is finding a big enough enemy that barely moves in T3. You could do vana, but he is incredibly resillient against shadow, so It's not a nice example.

If only Jelly Green Giant was here!

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 14:48

#21

Little-Juances

Ya, the mechanic of the bomb is a pain to balance unless they add some crappy hit limits.

It's like the dash of the WRH. Ok against most things, devastating for turrets/using AT.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 14:57

#22

Sketchturner

Both points above is pretty

Both points above is pretty much my thought of why it's OP, so, taking those into account, is the mechanic so OP in those conditions it needs a further nerf? or is it situational enough that it's fine the way it is? or are some people think that this is TOO situational and therefore underpowered?

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 16:58

#23

Qwao

Let's get some things laid out first.

DA charge can destroy a lumber with the projectiles proc-ing at about 2-3times a second, PER PROJECTILE.
Hammer dash's triple hit absolutely destroys many things- try it on someone standing still while charging a weapon in lockdown.
Blitz Needle's full damage can destroy a trojan in one full charge. Why else do people use it on Vanaduke?
Combuster and Acheron's full blast can also destroy many things.
Levi's triple and FoV's quadraple hit charges are also pretty crazy if you can land them.
Suda charges on a less destructive scale can hit up to 1k damage in total.
Driver charges ricocheting inside the enemy pretty much destroys them.
Bombs... What is for bombs?
You only have DR. That exclusive 5* shadow bomb that you won't have without purchasing the DLC and completing it.
Shards already have that silly hit limit, so those are getting nowhere.

DR was already nerfed once. Chaos got buffed twice, though that's besides the point.

Now enough rambling and on topic:
Battlepods are silly. Take a blitz with you sometime and watch them get ripped apart effortlessly. It even works on the Big Iron, which is the boss in Ghosts in the Machine.
Royal Jelly is boring. I can take a Venom Veiler and Acheron, or simply just kill him with Combuster. It's not the most efficient way, but it works.
You can kill Vanaduke with anything you want. It works but it's not effective, that's why people take a Blitz Needle.
Would you carry a Dark Retribution to the end game dungeon, Firestorm Citadel? I doubt it.
Yes, the damage per second is insane, and keeping it up with charge time reduction maximum, it can even destroy zombies with a bit of time.

But overpowered? Let's go deeper. (1 point for effectiveness against. 0 for ineffective/not as effective. -1 for just failing)
It works on wolvers and chromalisks, but chromalisks would hop around and wolvers may or may not just teleport away. No crits. 0/2 points.
It works on slimes and lichens. It crits, and their predictable movements might get them destroyed easily. 2/2 points.
Lumbers are large and slow, easy to hit. Despite the no crits, it shouldn't be too difficult. 1/1 point.
Mecha Knights move pretty fast and are hard to kite in large groups without difficulty. I reckon you could do it though, but not very effective as giving them a Brandish charge in the face. 0/1 point.
Scuttlebots move fast and are hard to hit, but easy to kite. Despite the lack of crits, it should be destroyed easily. 1/1 point.
Retrodes are slow, and easy to kite. Should be destroyed easily. 1/1 point.
Zombies are like retrodes, but DR is a lot weaker against them. 0/1 point.
Kats fly everywhere, not to mention DR is weak against them. -1/0 points. (This is just so much fail... at least I'd think)
Battlepods outlined above: 1/1 point.
Royal Jelly outlined above: 1/1 point.
Polyps and Gunpuppies are pretty easy to take care of, especially due to their stationary-ness. 2/2 points.
Howlitzers are strong against DR, but takes more time... 0/1 point.
Gremlin demos move erratically, but in a way that makes them die in a Dark Retribution field. 1/1 point.
Gremlin scorchers are slow and take crits. 1/1 point.
Gremlin Menders dodge and run everywhere and are hard to hit, though if you catch them they might not survive anyway. 1/1 point.
Gremlin Thwackers have those shields that make that annoying "klink" sound. Still, the crits make up for it. 1/1 point.
Gremlin knockers are somewhat hard to hit due to their size, but they take crits and all. 1/1 point.
Royal and Ice minis are immune. 0/2 points.
Green minis take extra damage, though you can probably kill them with a flourish. 1/1 point.
Devilites dodge everywhere, and the reduced damage makes it even more hilarious. -1/0 points.
Greavers fly everywhere, and the reduced damage probably doesn't flinch them much. -1/0 points.
Trojans have that shield, are strong against DR despite being slow. -1/0 points.
Gorgos could be trapped in a DR field but will probably float away. Still, they can be trapped I guess? 0/1 point.
Have fun using this on snarbolax or twins. -2/0 points.
It actually works on vanaduke! ...Until he's immune during phase 5. 0/1 point.
Yes, you can use it on Seerus. 1/1 point.
Total (and I apologise for spam): 10/25

So no, it's rather situational.
I'd actually have to use it for the bolded scenarios to see if it actually works, because I haven't tried it.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 17:44

#24

Saltyfruit

@Sketchy/Narf

I believe what Narfle is saying is that Dark Ret is overpowered compared to a T2 boss.
Whereas OP is saying that Dark Ret is overpowered on that same T2 boss, but compared to Acheron.
Totally different arguments.

Is Dark Ret, a 5* shadow bomb, overpowered on Jelly King? Obviously yes.
Is Acheron, a 5* shadow sword, overpowered on Jelly King? Obviously yes.

Is Dark Ret overpowered on Jelly King compared to Acheron? Yes.

Conversely though, Acheron is definitely more "overpowered" (comparatively at least) against Roarmulus Twins, for example, compared to Dark Ret. That's primarily because it's a pain to hit switches with a bomb, as well as you only have a limited amount of time to damage the twins before they go invulnerable again so if you're not a total expert then the fact that Dark Ret has a fuse time to expire before you can actually do damage is a bit of a problem. So even if you had an elemental Dark Ret, it wouldn't be quite as fast as an elemental Brandish against the Roarmulus Twins.

Why is that? Maybe because Jelly King is in general easier with bombs, than it is with swords. One of the few areas in the game, speaking in terms of percentage, where bombs are more useful than guns or swords.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 18:09

#25

Sketchturner

^ woo Saltyfruit understood!

thanks for the reply guys, that's the kind of thing I was hoping for at the start :P
rather than having to repeat myself 3 times to try and establish a point ._.

Any who, your bolded points make much sense to remain untested, as tbh, you'd have to be some what insane, or perhaps a glutton for punishment to true such a thing. nice easy way to show that even with it's powerful applications I believe you've pretty much proven it's overall actually pretty well balanced.

Though, on a future note, will that still be the case with the vengeance quills from the battle sprite? :O BOM BOM BOMMMMMMMM!!!

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 18:33

#26

Zeddy

@Saltyfruit

Speak for yourself, buddy. I'd take DR with me to the Roarmies over Acheron anyday. Acheron explosions disappear if you try to hit the twins. DR has enough firepower to take out a Roarmie once he's down, and that's enough; It's all you need.

Meanwhile, Acheron can't be used to do lots of cool neato switch tricks in the factory itself, DR can.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 18:37

#27

Little-Juances

We know you're the best bomber ever, but for a regular player a sword is easier to control.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 19:05

#28

Retequizzle

The Dark Retribution is one

The Dark Retribution is one of the better bombs in the game, and it should remain that way if only because the name kind of implies it's a big deal.

Also, yeah obligatory 5* comment in T2 goes here, it's got a pseudo-AoE effect because of multiple layers of orbs and they stack, so yeah. It's situational at times but still worth carrying.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 19:21

#29

Redcoder

You guys...

Click the link before I smash my face into my iPod and break my head on this indestructible piece of junk.

THE LINK.
~Redcoder/Redtail3

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 19:24

#30

Hexzyle

@Sketchturner

You're missing the point that bombs have an exponential effectiveness increase as they go up in star ratings, compared to swords and gun's linear increase. Generally it's not noticed because bombs can be situational, and difficult to use effectively especially in Tier 3. But in Tier 2 and 1 where one can go ape with little consequences, 5 star bombs really obliterate everything. A 4-man party with 5 star bombs will absolutely steamroll RJP while a 4-man party with swords drags behind. The same can probably be said for most other levels, but it isn't said, because 5 star bombers are few and far between.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 20:49

#31

Fehzor

Lol Small Juances, speak for yourself. Dark rets is legit.

Fri, 07/26/2013 - 21:17

#32

Retequizzle

It's totally named after me,

It's totally named after me, by the way.

Sat, 07/27/2013 - 10:52

#33

Destroyerofthenort

In related news, LD is still a trainwreck

@OP

Seerusly... You have the time to complain about this, yet not a second of your time was spent making a thread on something that actually NEEDS attention... nerfing stuff that doesn't really need it has already happened with the shards. I am no bomber, but why would you do this to them? But, referring to the post title...

How about we make it so polaris is a sniper rifle instead of a rocket launcher? "OH NONON0! We3 cuwd NVR ave tht, Pulrs iz a prity cul gun i c4n youse to gett l33t kilz in LD. Ahll thu pros have iht, iht's soh MLG"

At the very least, would it be too much to ask that we make it so that players need to spam a full clip of polaris to entirely blockade an entrance as opposed to two shots with quick recovery time?

Or how about we do an entire rebalance of Lockdown? Heaven forbid we should have it so that people carry shields instead of ramjets.

Your decision to attack bombers is quite questionable... when there are truly more important matters to balance. I am sorry if you are one of the skolver clones and finally managed to get beaten by a bomber in LD... but that doesn't quite excuse this

Sat, 07/27/2013 - 10:47

#34

Abelisk

Proto Bomb

is the best darn bomb in Spiral Knights.

Sat, 07/27/2013 - 10:50

#35

Destroyerofthenort

@Ultrex-Two

Indeed. All the real pros use it. It alongside proto gun and proto sword are undoubtably the best... PRO is right in the name! If you haven't done SL FSC all proto including weapons, you aren't professional.

*temporarily turns off sarcastic troll mode*... I believe we are about to make the entire thread a joke thread about how OP proto weapons are

Sat, 07/27/2013 - 10:54

#36

Abelisk

Hey, that's why it's called PROto... haha *lame joke*

Sat, 07/27/2013 - 11:12

#37

Shotjeer

Anyways

I tried DR on RT today, using a gun to hit switches. It was pretty effective, but that's probably because I used CTR Max.

Thu, 08/01/2013 - 14:43

#38

Levenzaa

It's already had a massive nerf.

The Dark Retribution s fine now. It's not overpowered...

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 08:02

#39

Pine-Fresh

@Urtex

That's why all the winners in in this game use the WINmillion. Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 19:24

#40

Flamearc

Guns ftw

umm I think you forgot to mention the key difference between swords and bombs...
You have to CHARGE the bomb...
yeah..
Hi..
I'll go hang myself now.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 19:24

#41

Flamearc

Guns ftw

umm I think you forgot to mention the key difference between swords and bombs...
You have to CHARGE the bomb...
yeah..
Hi..
I'll go hang myself now.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 19:48

#42

Maeko

Before I read this whole

Before I read this whole thing, just have to say to the OP,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HA.

Obviously you weren't here when it was first released. Try again when you have a DR doing more damage, with the spheres moving nearly twice as fast. You could layer those things three deep before the first one timed out. The first thing I did after getting it when OCH came out was do a JK run. All four of us had a DR and only used it through out the entire run. The run took less than ten minutes. The King died in less than ten seconds.

It does not need a nerf. The nerf it did get before was very justified, if a bit much in my opinion. It was effective against enemies strong against shadow damage for goodness' sake. We don't need another bomb martyr like the Shard bombs.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 22:47

#43

Coelydragon

Maeko, that last line is the best line I've seen in this whole thread. End of discussion I think.

Sun, 08/04/2013 - 00:09

#44

Wodanct

Someone clearly hasn't seen a Fang of Vog user rip apart the Royal Jelly in 15 seconds yet.

Sun, 08/04/2013 - 00:38

#45

Hexzyle

@Wodanct

Or a Volcanic Pepperbox user do the same.

Sun, 08/04/2013 - 01:09

#46

Burq

@OP

You havent used Fang of Vog against the Royal jelly, havent you?

Seriously, with boosts, it absolutely destroys it and other stationary targets like a hammer to a frozen fly.

Also, that bomb was made to destroy such targets, of course it would be powerful against them, specially with chaos on top of it. It's like saying water is wet and calling it a marvelous discovery!

Tue, 08/06/2013 - 04:57

#47

Rezzler

I use FoV against jelly

I use FoV against jelly allbthe time. Fire does a total of 6% to me, 2% ech tick. Charges in 2 srconds. Averags jelly time is abiut 18 seconds, 23 without vials.

And seriously, sketch, you shouldn't be a douche to people who never insulted you (narfie). You are pretty immature.

Lastly, you shouldn't be thatvhardheaded about swords. And taking chaos bonuses into consideration is pnot right.

And yiur next post will prbly look like this:

WTF mah swrd haz sux cause bomb with MAX DMG and CTR better than normal sword WTF How now rnglish?!?!?#&&

Tue, 08/06/2013 - 06:57

#48

Hexzyle

Not sure if Rezzler has his right hand moved one set of keys over to the left for that second last part of his post, or just has weird spelling.

Tue, 08/06/2013 - 11:57

#49

Misty-Wellington

xwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba

You're complaining about DR being overpowered, why? The user of that DR is most likely wearing Bomber equipment to reduce Charge time, which is why it's there. All they're doing is doing all the work for you so you can sit back, relax and collect loot or pick off any survivors.

Something tells me you weren't around when the DR really was OP, but the nerf then was justified. Now it remains one of the few good offensive bombs currently available to bombers.

Got a problem with a DR user killing mobs with ease? You're crazy.

____

Is Dark Ret, a 5* shadow bomb, overpowered on Jelly King? Obviously yes.
Is Acheron, a 5* shadow sword, overpowered on Jelly King? Obviously yes.

Is Dark Ret overpowered on Jelly King compared to Acheron? Yes.

Late response to this week-old post? Yes. But it has to be said.

Obviously it's going to hit hard on Royal Jelly; not only does it have a weakness is Shadow and it's a Shadow bomb, but because of its size pretty much every orb hits it. Bigger you are, harder you fall.

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Dark Retribution is Maybe some what over powered?