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A Casual's Comments On Spiral Knights: Or "Why Elevator Generosity Isn't."

18 replies [Last post]
Thu, 08/01/2013 - 08:08
Appletize

Greetings all, this will be my first post, and I wanted to make it separate from the Patch discussion as it touches upon wider issues than just that; but the latest patch is indeed why I cannot forsee myself playing the game at all in the long run.

But let us start at the beginning; I came to Spiral Knights, like so many others, via snowball Steam achievements. Of all the games I installed during that season, and there were many, the only one I kept installed and kept playing for a while was Spiral Knights. I adored the setting and graphical twee-ness of the world, there's just something indelibly charming about a cute steam-punk Zelda-esque adventure. The music fit Spiral's style perfectly too, so much so that I've got the game running in Haven now (to cross check data for later in this post) just so it can keep playing as I type. The lore was interesting, and coherent, and the gameplay, once you stepped away from the PvP where the Steam achievements were, was relaxed and open ended to some degree...

By which I mean that like any good MMO, you could log on and partake of events at your own pace and still feel progression; if you weren't advancing further within the arcade to see new levels, you could pick an easier set of levels and help other players, heat up weapons you wouldn't otherwise use, or just have fun. Later, the Rank Missions would be added, which expanded this concept further; if you wanted, you could push your own content solo. Operation Crimson Hammer added massive team effort missions. It was a game that wanted you to love it, and it was so tempting to do so.

There were serious problems however. Some were and remain core parts of the game; I found the graphical confusion when higher powered weapons were spammed extremely disorientating... I only started to notice it when more developed characters came into my teams, but as someone who thinks Knights should have a sword, it threw off a lot of the skills needed to use my own weapons correctly. Visual and Sound queues would be missed in the effects malestrom. However when solo, I would later find that there was a sudden difficulty cliff around level 18 which made it impossible to continue solo with my not-as-perhaps-as-good-as-once-they-were reactions. This was exaggerated further by the extreme damage-type model, which meant that if you had the wrong armour and weapon set you would be slaughtered. Not a problem as such for those who purchased a lot of energy with real cash, but for myself it meant earning Credits to craft them through gameplay.

And it was there I thought the main problem with Spiral Knights lay; the Elevator system and death costs. At the time I played, and at the current time in fact, the exchange rate was around 8000cr to 100 energy. I could make that reasonably, unless I died a lot, in which case it ended up costing me negative progression. On some maps, like OCH L3 this dying would happen constantly as the gear I'd chosen was not really suitable. On some Rank and Prestige missions, especially those with Gremlins, I'd also face endless death. This meant that in the end, I found that I'd have to grind the same map over and over again to raise credits to eventually craft 5* gear to move on the Hall of Heroes at Rank 8.2; it was either the same Arcade rooms or, if I could find a team, Jelly King runs. So ... much... jelly. Again, at first it wasn't a problem, I was happy Heating up the lower star items I did have, so I could build wider damage/resistant sets later, and occasionally swapping to challenging myself to do the one try, no death achievements.

It got increasingly old though unfortunately, as I started to see the same levels again and again, often with a bad team or making a good team a bad one myself I'd see the same levels and go backwards with regards to item progress overall. In the end, I got as far fully heated 4* gear, a Level 6 5* Grey Owlite Shield and had idly heated a 4* Ascended Honor Blade to L9. But I could see months more of grinding to purchase and equip the 5* Armour and Helm. And then having to do it again and again to get different sets to go to different rooms. Around the time I started to lose interest, the Guild update came in. I stayed a week or so just looking at what people were doing with their halls, considered applying to some, but realised as a mostly F2P person, and being unable to justify (and now no longer able to afford) purchasing Energy, I'd likely be a drag on those whilst still grinding the same things in the short term.

So I drifted away from the game. A shame, as I mentioned, because I retained a lot of fondness for it overall. Recently, I noticed the new expansion, and thought "Maybe this is the one I've been waiting for" The Pet idea was cute, I love digital companions, but removing elevator and death charges meant that perhaps now I could look forward to progression in a more meaningful amount of time.

How very wrong I was. After a day playing, the changes are a complete disaster for a casual.

Not the pets, as such; That seems well designed, the level up food is frustrating but the appetite it gains seems generous... 1 blob per level and it seems there's a time component too so when I came back today to check my facts, he was hungry again and ready for food. It also gives a reason to stock up on specific ores required for that particular pet type's level food... I'm not so sure on that, as it means giving up on donating to the mines if you stay solo; it's taken a little of the versatility from gameplay now, as only in team runs will you get enough other ores to work the donation Achievements. But it's not a heavy cost, especially as it gives genuine progression from alot of the drops I'd otherwise have spent hours putting on the auction house to make Credits. Overall, I really like my new pet dragon, Grrtan... even if the name won't accept 3 letters in a row, Grrrrtan was right out apparently. Bah.

No, the disaster lies in the new Heat/Forge mechanism. I understand something had to give to allow us to have less disruptive energy costs. Except in doing so they've absolutely killed forward progression for the casual within a few minutes of logging in. Let me explain...

When I came back to the game, I did a few runs of the Arcade with random teams, just to get a feel for the play again. They were low levels, so I didn't see my Heat rise much at all. Then I went and got a Drakon, and took him for a solo run to see how he bounced around. In doing so, the long idle L9 4* honor sword completed it's rise to L10. Except now I needed to heat it. Ok, to the Forge... I was awarded gifts which gave me 46 of the relevant Flame Shards. This gave me a maximum chance of 70% success. Hmm, ok. Luckily it went through first time. So I went back to the Arcade, and the Owlite Shield made it to L6. Now I need to do it again. Only I have no shards at all, so I can't. So the shield doesn't Heat up, and I see no progression what so ever until I can find or purchase some.

Now for the maths.

To buy and make an item PREVIOUSLY, I would spend let's say 25,000 cr on the recipe, then 500 crowns for crafting and 800 Energy. I'll use 8k per 100 Energy just as a baseline. That meant that I would need to spend a total of 89,500 cr... but once done, that was it. The shield heats up, I can see the little bar move, I'm happy.

To do the same NOW, I have the same outlay (so it seems), however I also need to buy Radiant Fire for all 10 levels, which looking at the Auction House now are going for 16k/22k per 10. Let's say I need 50 for every level; there doesn't seem to be a way to predict how many I need per item if you no longer have the Fire Crystals... it may be much more as the Owlite is a 5* and the Honor was 4*. Let's just assume for now though. So that's (22,000 x 5) x 10 = 1,110,000 over the life of the shield. That's now nearly 13 times more expensive and it also prevents you progressing any further on that item until it's Forged.

And the forging can fail, even at maximum chance.

That's a staggeringly worse gameplay set up. Remember, this Forging is not only multiplicative over the Star rating of an item, but over every improvement step prior because you need to heat to L5 to upgrade an item too. Now, you could say "But you can play with your Pet instead", but for a casual like me, you run into the prior issues again, only with a vengeance now. You have to play the same levels again and again and again to grind Credits. Sure, the Pet is nice, but it does very, very little to make you more useful, less dead in team matches. It's a small side perk, even if a cute one. However, even if you don't die constantly, your chance of progression is now based not just on price fluctuations of Energy Cost, but also random forge failing.

Worse still, soloing is possibly out because you need the energy for the item forging even more than before; and spending Crowns on replacing the tokens which allow you to return to life at ALSO pushes you further away from being able to heat the items that keep you interested in the short term.

Now... in theory it should be possible to pick the items up through genuine play. Except in a 2 hour session I didn't see any of the life ones, and from what I've been reading, no one seems to know where the 5* Flames are... or at least, they aren't telling perhaps to manipulate the market for themselves whilst they can. But I can say there don't seem to be anywhere I can play solo. If they're somewhere harder than I currently can handle, I need the items in the first place to be able to get there to... it's a true Catch 22.

I don't begrudge OOO needing to make money, but the reality is as a casual I simply can't go any further now, except by restricting myself to gameplay I've already seen a hundred times before, and extending it out to a thousand times more. That is simply bad business practice as it doesn't make me want to stay and do so. The alternative is to go hardcore, or really, really splash out the cash I haven't got and can't justify for the game. Again... it's a shame, Spiral Knights has such a promising set up; but the structure doesn't leave anywhere for me to fit in.

Thu, 08/01/2013 - 08:21
#1
Abanoth's picture
Abanoth
You can get it to 100%

Takes about 9 crystals if I remember correctly from last night after a Vana run from last night. The annoying part is that they have tiers and only work on gear of the same star quality (ergo a 4-star sword requires 4-star crystals) but (for the moment, and this is why I don't like relying on drop rates) the drops are pretty generous if you run at the right depth (hunt down every last green and red box).

Thu, 08/01/2013 - 08:35
#2
Bopp's picture
Bopp
response

Your post is well-written, although too long. Perhaps you could edit it and put your key points in bold.

I can't comment on the heating/forging system itself, as I haven't used it. But you're doing your cause a service by posting a well-written critique, backed up by numbers. Good luck.

As a 5-star player, I'm finding tons of Sparks of Life and 5-star fire crystals on Tier-3 Elite missions. So yes, they are out there. Perhaps you are doing different missions, not on Elite level? I suspect that Three Rings will be tweaking the drop rates over the coming weeks.

Thu, 08/01/2013 - 08:36
#3
Rating's picture
Rating
I try not to vehemently

I try not to vehemently disagree with people as much as possible, but you CLEARLY have yet to run the clockworks since the update came out. One random T3 run can yield upwards of 50 5* heat crystals, not to mention even a few 5* alchemy orbs.

Stop crying and go make all your gear for free now. Thank OOO for providing a way for FTP players to never worry about energy again.

Thu, 08/01/2013 - 08:39
#4
Rating's picture
Rating
I will admit the heat crystal

I will admit the heat crystal need is annoying, but max crystal use is 100% chance of success AND a small chance of extra goodies...

overall the forge piece of the update is generally good

Thu, 08/01/2013 - 08:39
#5
Monork
Unlucky or hyperbole.

I did one Danger Mission: Ghosts in the Machine(took about 30 minutes), and found 48 5* Fire Crystals, 5 Sparks of Life, and a decent 3,800 crowns.

If you're really concerned as a casual player about the progression of your character, then maybe you should try some of the prestige missions. Only 2 of the floors have enemies, the final one being a storehouse of all the things you can't ever seem to find.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 06:51
#6
Appletize
Apart from Rating's

Apart from Rating's buffoonery, where he CLEARLY hasn't actually read my post, I thank you all for your suggestions. Unfortunately I think you're missing the pertinent point. My character is limited to the following;

4* Gun, Armour and Helm
5* Shield

At that level then, he is stuck at Rank 8.2 and missions which start at Depth 19, until he can upgrade 2 items further to 5*. At that difficulty/depth, you get 3* Flames, not the 5* he needs. The following were suggested as places he can get the Flames;

Danger Missions
Vana
T3 Runs
T3 Elite Runs
Prestige Missions

Vana and T3 are locked off entirely to me, as I cannot start or host those levels until I pass 8.2 Hall of Heroes (I've yet to even see Vana to be honest, he is 9.3). Elite and Danger runs I cannot survive as I don't have the 5* gear again, and when I do it'll be in just the 1 resistance/damage type until I can work up more sets; I cannot do that of course until I pass Rank 8.2 again. Prestige I can do now, and have done (PAY ATTENTION RATING) but they spawn at L19 and drop the 3* Flame to me instead.

The problem, which OOO doesn't seem to have spotted, is they have designed the content for the long term players and not noticed, or did notice but are happy with the fact that the only way for a person who can't spend real money here to progress before this point is by buying the Flames from the market. Which means paying Hardcore prices, at the level of cost I suggested above, that is the original cost and 13x more over the lifetime now of the weapon.

Or alternatively, finding higher ranked teams to carry the undergeared through Elite difficulty. It shouldn't need explaining how frustrating and pointless that would be for both.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 07:20
#7
Rewopa
I'm confused. Doesn't passing

I'm confused.
Doesn't passing the Hall of Heroes at 6-2( 4*) grant T3 access? Isn't that enough to enter T3 arcade?
If 3* heat crystals are dropping in stratum 5 instead of the 4* that you need, then that seems like a genuine bug to be fixed.
Also, don't believe the hype - 4* has always been 'good enough' for T3. It's only the mission system demands 5* to progress the storyline, but unfortunately this has had the side effect of 4*-intolerance from some post-mission launch players who genuinely believe that 5* is a magnitude stronger. It is not.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 07:21
#8
Surfpichu's picture
Surfpichu
Before Hall of Heroes 8.2,

Before Hall of Heroes 8.2, you should have access to T3 Arcade (All 4* items is what you needed to get there). From there, you should be able to jump into gates that give arenas/Treasure vaults/gate to Vana, and (in theory) you should be able to get 4* sparks and 5* orbs (though there may be easy gates that you could do on advanced or get through d24-29). I do intend on doing a T3 run Normal to see what actually drops and how bad it is.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 07:31
#9
Grittle's picture
Grittle
Well, Why dont you move like,

Well, Why dont you move like, I dont know.... 30 feet into the arcade and try T3 arcade...

Its not like that exists anymore.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 09:21
#10
Surfpichu's picture
Surfpichu
Ok, I did a partial run. I

Ok, I did a partial run. I ran D18-23 on Normal, having one chance at a treasure vault (was a graveyard), and 2 danger rooms (only 1 I actually went into). I found 3 4* crystals, and 3 5* crystals. I don't know if this is going to work for newer people. I will run advanced in the same area, and give my results later.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 10:17
#11
Aiden-Curry-Puff's picture
Aiden-Curry-Puff
Kudos to you for an eloquent

Kudos to you for an eloquent post with numbers and precise references.

However I have not seen any need in the last few days to buy crystals from other players. The drop rate is more than sufficient if you are looking in the proper places and on elite. I can't speak for the other difficulties since I haven't actually tried them yet.

The crystals drop from treasure boxes, and their star rating generally corresponds to the stratum you are in. Since your character has full 4* or higher, you definitely have T3 access which is stratum 5...which generally corresponds to the 4* crystals you need.

Thus stratum 5 arenas will probably be your best guess. One of those alone should give you over 10. I think i picked up 20 last time on elite.

If you want to raise the drop rate but are worried about the difficulty try joining a decent guild. You seem to think that partying on elite would frustate your party members, but most players are surprisingly helpful imo. I for one wouldn't mind at all. And elite really isn't that bad, it's maybe 50% more health.

TL:DR the crystals are easily obtainable without spending real money or game money. if you're still having trouble, ask for help. i've gotten a lot of tips for good crystal spots lately though i forgot most of them since i'm in no rush to heat. add me if you like~

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 10:33
#12
Epic-Gear-Knight
d19-21 drop 4* Fire Crystals

d19-21 drop 4* Fire Crystals (Shining Fire Crystal)
d22+ drop 5* Fire Crystals (Radiant Fire Crystal)

I have yet to see a 3* Fire Crystal (Glowing) drop in d19 or higher, but I will check later...

If you need 4* Fire Crystal, replay 8-2 The Rotting Metropolis. Zombies and poison slimes are pretty easy. You might get Radiant's on the boss level, I forget.

Or just run T3 Arcade. You definitely have access if you completed 4* HoH mission for T3 access; otherwise it wouldn't even let you play T3 missions altogether. If everything you have is fully heated (and you're just collecting Fire Crystals to level up) just run past everything and open boxes.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 10:47
#13
Shrinkshootr
This makes no sense. Nick

This makes no sense. Nick specifically stated that anyone who had any 5* gear item bound to their character would completely bypass rank restrictions. You just stated that you had a 5* shield before the update occurred. Additionally, you gain access to T3 arcade long before rank 8-2. I have no idea what you're doing, but it's got to be something wrong.

Just at least try going into the game, hitting the M key, choosing arcade, choose a gate, choose T3, and hit Start. If you insist this doesn't work, contact the admins or something, because that's broken for you. With a bound 5* shield, you have T3 access. And yes, run elite. Free revive on every level? Not a problem. Also, there's no such thing as "backward progression" anymore because there is nothing you need to spend money on. Anything you need can be found for free, and it's not like the drop rates are stupidly low, either.

Also, any crafting rarities found from drops are bound to the character, so your whole point of people trying to play the market and whatnot just damages your credibility a bit by showcasing you don't really know what's going on. And not calling things what they are, etc. Which, by the way, just always play on elite; you'll make a net gain in sparks of life if you don't suck. T2 elite runs should yield a few sparks if T3 elite is too tough for you.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 10:59
#14
Zhudac's picture
Zhudac
This update changed the

This update changed the requirement of 5* from CE (and hence crowns) to time spent actually playing the Clockworks. So yes, auction house barons and credit card dukes won't be able to buy their 5-star gear fast at all, but for casual clockworks-going people whose adventuring is their main income, it's exponentially easier to get gear.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 11:11
#15
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
@Zhudac

It would be harder to buy 5* gear because the path to craft those requires heat. Assuming gaining equipment level is harder now, how is it exponentially easier for the people diving? And throwing in the word casual in there implies that they won't be grinding as much as people who play more seriously. With the amount of complaints on the forum about certain fire crystals being hard to obtain, it gives the impression that it does require a good amount of grinding.

I wouldn't know how hard it actually is to obtain these fire crystals, since running fsc/rjp was the way for obtaining heat and crowns before this update. But the distribution of crystals seems to be over the entire gate, and not just at one point. So running fsc for heat to get a gear to the leveling point and then looking for fire crystals seems to be longer than what it used to be, just running fsc.

The marketeers and people who shell out real money for CE (and hence crowns) can actually skip a step in the cr>ce conversion, and simply buy the crystals at the supply depot, then run fsc for the base heat required to level.

i fail to see how it is easier for clockwork diver to obtain gear.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 11:23
#16
Zhudac's picture
Zhudac
I've ran d19-23 a lot since

I've ran d19-23 a lot since the update, and average around ~20 crystals per run. Assuming I can run them in about 20 minutes, that's about half a vana, I'd guess, for the average player. To get a 4* from 1*-10*, picking the most crystal-efficient option which is usually #2 (using 50% extra crystals trying to mitigate a 20% chance of failing isn't efficient at all; at 70% chance of success, the odds are *slightly* in favor of the 2nd option, but minuscule enough that I still go for #3 for the small chance at a forge box) it would cost around say, 7-8 runs. That's 4 vanas, generously speaking, which would get you 100CE/run for 400 CE. This is cheaper by a large margin, not to mention the crowns from the 7-8 runs, which is more than enough to buy yourself at 200 CE. If you pick up a Basil recipe, then the odds shift even more in favor of the new system.

The marketers can still buy heat crystals, but FSC is terrible in terms of heating up stuff now. Even assuming that they're going to drop out every level to heat their stuff, they're the only ones negatively affected by the changes, because they're unwilling to actually run the clockworks to get crystals. For other people, the energy requirements waved in crafting are much more significant.

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 11:29
#17
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
Alright

I see where you're coming from, thanks

Fri, 08/02/2013 - 11:45
#18
Nearo's picture
Nearo
Well, my personal experience:

I created a new knight the day battle sprites came out, as of now he's up to 3-4 star gear, I've never ran out of fire crystals, in fact- I have over a 100 of each. I guess experience may vary, especially as far as 4-5 stars which I've yet to heat much, but I'm not sure how you could have that much of a problem.
You can indeed get 4 star crystals in tier 2, as well. At a quite plentiful rate too, as in the last 3 days I've heated up my 4 star gear and still have 51 spare 4 star crystals to boot. I guess you've just gotten really unlucky man. It's true that I've grinded a lot which is what's gotten me the surplus, but getting just enough for leveling was no problem.
Note that for all of my gear leveling up I've always used the max amount of crystals you're able to input, never once gotten a fail or run out.

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