It takes forever in higher tier to get to the next heat level, the higher tier your weapons, the lower the chance, and that's terrible.
Trying to upgrade my weapons but at the same time not even being able too is annoying.
The new heat system is terrible and a waste of time, I liked the old one, where it leveled on its own and it was actually a reward, unlike now, where you only do it if you have the luck + crystals.
"and a waste of time"
Then it's doing its job. The old system, under this new no cost elevators, would mean heating is ridiculously easy. And since crafting can be completely free of energy now, there must be a cost involved. This cost is time. The devs have to slow progression somehow.
I mean it's an annoying feature which should be removed, Heat is a GIFT, it shouldn't be that hard to earn
And this is why this should be in new recruits
"New Recruits"
Oh excuse me, since you disagree, I should go to New Recruits? Nice logic there, twit.
But Heat was obtained by slaying monsters, and it made your weapons better, it wasn't forced, nor was it hard to obtain.
So are crowns. So are materials. Are you saying that weapons should be a gift, along with equipment? Then what do you truly work for, if it's all gifts?
>I mean it's an annoying feature which should be removed, Heat is a GIFT, it shouldn't be that hard to earn
no, you're used to being heat as a gift, whereas now we are being gifted the things required for alchemy. We're still even being gifted everything you could possibly require for heating, and in great abundance.
You have unlimited playtime for free now.
Could you be any more entitled? "It's annoying, I have to work at it." You can't have everything just handed to you.
Honestly, I prefer the old heating system as well,
BUT
I just did a run with a group in the clockworks, doing level 3 from depth 18 all the way to the end, and that included 2 arenas.
I left that run with 69 new Radient fire crystals
Granted, at least half came from the 2 arenas, but still, so they aren't that hard to grab.
You think you want the heat system to be like it used to be, while still keeping the free, abundant crafting orbs, but the truth is that you do not.
You know how you could avoid having to farm heat crystals for your weapons? To not have to run dungeons and fight enemies and go on adventures? You could be not playing MMOs.
But you do play MMOs. This is because MMOs give you things to do, and without the heat system being slowed down (as opposed to crafting, which was previously the element of upgrading your weapon which used to be slowed down), you'd have all the gear the game has to offer in like two weeks. And then you'd have nothing to do. No goals to work towards. And quit.
The thing is, most MMO's don't stagger your levelling progression quite so fiercely as this new system.
The old elevator/revive system just limited your play time/wallet depth, it seemed to be designed around reigning in the hardcore addicts so that the casual player can keep up. This... well... This just adds a random factor into your time spent, as well as dragging out the experience into a dull monotony if you arn't already at max level.
Example: Trying to level up a 4* so I can craft it to its 5*
Attempt 1- 80% chance = fail.
Attempt 2 - 80% chance = fail.
Attempt 3 - 20% chance = fail.
Switched items to a 5* at lvl9 going into 10 to try and let everything else level a bit faster.
Attempt 1- 20% = fail
Attempt 2- 20% = fail
Attempt 3- 70% = fail
Attempt 4- 100% = SUCCESS
Yes I know I typically have bad luck, but frankly, this is just trying to level two weapons and doing so burnt through all my crowns and I spent around 6-7 hours running the clockworks. (if theres a better farm route, please say so.) Now if I wanted to get my 5* armour and shield past 4-5... yeah Ima be grinding for a whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiile.
I don't mind a grind if the task of doing so is mete'd by new content or difficulty in monsters or different environments or story. But frankly, I played most of this content a year ago, love the new stuff but... I find it hard to believe newer players will stomach the time neccesary to progress, especially with how much of a difference gear makes. If anything people will just want to be carried untill they can just buy 5* gear with real money.
Oh and orbs are hardly abundant. In those 6-7 hours I saw TWO orbs, one 2* one 4*. Heaven forbid you want to craft a full set of anything.
TLDR: Levelling can be fun for most people in MMO's but the way to keep people is to offer content past the max level. Like gear thats only found from hard bosses, or from tokens dropped by said bosses. Or collectable accessories dropped by bosses. A slow, roadblock filled grind, isn't that appealing. Most people can appreciate a bit of a grind but unneccesary barriers that are simply a roll of the dice, not being solved skill or general amount of time, is just plain irritating.
What do you mean they don't slow your progression down as much as this? You chose to take a gamble with the percentage chances. Granted they could be misleading, but you still chose that option with the potential of failing. And did you spend your crowns buying the fire crystals on ah?
Run the correct stratum for the right drops. Nothing much to say here.
New players will enjoy the free elevators. As I've posted in other threads related to the change, the forge system was introduced to slow progression, considering that elevators are free now. In the past, your heat was limited by the energy, both mist and crystal, you wished to spend to run a floor.
As Bopp said, it is inevitable that a player will go through new content faster than it can be produced.
Orbs, and fire crystals to a smaller extend, represent the new ce cost in crafting. Remember how it cost huge amount of ce to craft? Well, now you have an option to pay that price, or grind to receive it for free. Heaven forbid we have people stop complaining about the ce required to play this game.
Plenty MMOs put a large amount of grind in levels and progression to endgame. That's why you have many games that raise the level cap. Although that tends to be just a way of saying go level up so you can use this new endgame gear. However, sk has no endgame, so to speak. Other games add new, stronger equipment to entice players into staying and grinding for them, which may or may not be required in new content. But sk isn't adding new content this way, which would be like deeper levels. Shadow lairs is generally considered endgame. And as such, has to be difficult. If you were to add gear that is stronger than the current set, that difficulty would essentially go down.
Collectible accessories will eventually lose value over time, unless it is released in controlled amounts. And once someone has it, the value of it for that individual goes down because they can't use it, the only thing they would do with duplicates is to sell. So either everyone grinds some more to sell and drop the price to not worth, or only a few people sell. And that doesn't solve your problem.
Tl;dr Elevators are free now, lets complain about heat. Oh and, picking an option less than 100% must give me the results I want.
Im not saying that anything sub 100% should be guaranteed, but come on, you can't say that grinding for 5-6 hours with all your equips not gaining heat due to being ready to level, then repeatedly failing and requiring that you go at it again for another chance is a reasonable expectaton to ask of people.
Hell, even if the gear built up heat towards the next level while it was waiting (and never more than one level) I would be much more inclined to be on board for the system. So that, if I was stuck for a while, at least the time spent on farming more crystals wasn't entirely wasted. Or even, when a piece of equipment is capped and ready to level, have it reward you with X crystals for every level it -would- have gained should it be uncapped. (Though seeing as that could easilly be abused here's another thought) As a weapon sits on cap for a longer time period, the minimum % chance rises. So that, a 20% will turn to a 30 - 50% if it would have gained a level. The 2nd option becomes the new 100% and the third is a guaranteed double level (as you spent that amount of time grinding regardless.)
I'm not saying to do away with the system entirely, as yes, SK is pretty well all about getting the gear and levelling it at the moment. Cosmetics are random or bought, all "endgame" gear is predominately similar in stats. But the forge system could definitely use some incentives to keep trying to forge gear should you get repeated failures or have poor luck and happen to not get the right crystals in the right amount to keep everything levelling at once.
The incentive for forging is to increase your equipments power. You don't have to increase its power. Anything lower than 100% forge is a gamble, trying to save crystals and all that. It is a gamble that you actively took, not one that was forced on you.
*Sighs* No, increasing your power/defence/utility and options is one of the incentives to play the game. Thats the same with any rpg. You play to improve your character, to change your look, to explore, or to beat the game. Or in the case of MMO's be better than player A or player B.
Forging, in its current state is just a roadblock, every level. Saying that, if you want to progress you must spend x amount of time to get random drops to level up. Now, assuming you go with the "oh you took a chance and it didnt turn out, sucks to be you" arguement. Fine, lets say for every level, for every bit of gear. You farm at minimum a few hours to get enough crystals to guarantee its success. This balloons the playtime neccesary to hit the psuedo max level dramatically. Sounds great for developers right? People play your game much more because they want to progress.
Problem is, for anyone who is starting out now, with lvl 1 1* gear, I doubt they'll stick through for that grind. Especially with the roadblocks the game has had from the start, limiting your exploration untill you have an entire set of gear of a certain level. Especially now with the requirement of completing missions to wear x gear.
So, with limited exploration and delayed character improvement, do you really see new players sticking around to see past statum 2-3? Do you even see players in the mid-range of gear who had their stuff levelling automatically before, continue now with the required effort for every level being dramatically increased?
Before a player could spend an hour a day and see a little improvement each time. The only roadblock they would come across is their skill being inadequate, lag or swinging above their catagory and wasting that daily mist on revives. If you were good you could still get by on spending little to no money on spiral knights. Now? Sure you can play and not spend a buck if you're really into the game. But with that roadblock every level for 4-7 bits of gear, more if you want more armour/shields, people will have to a) play a rediculous amount of time to progress. Or b) spend real money once again (and a fairly large amount considering how many crystals you get per wad of energy.) Which kind of well... undoes the good of free elevators and the incredibly generous revive system. Well.... maybe not entirely, certainly ain't missing spending 1k+ on party revives.
But if OOO is looking for ways to maintain bringing in that cash to maintain servers/maintenance/content etc. They should go with more DLC, cosmetic cash shop or the usual stuff that keeps "free to play" games afloat nowdays. You would be surprised how much people will fork out just to make their avatar that little more fabulous.
But anyway I'm talking about incentives to continue in spite of failure, or in spite of a grind with no forseeable meter or guide saying x time = x levels (if capped on heat for that level). If I were to fail a forge, but have better chances next time. I'd be spurred on to keep trying in spite of failure. Or if I spent the time to get that 100% chance AND the amount of heat I picked up during that time would equal another level, the game recognises that effort and rewards it accordingly.
When a player puts in effort and gets no reward, unless the "fun" game from the effort alone, they see little reason to continue. Don't get me wrong, I love SK to bits for both its gameplay and style. But it is repetitive and theres only so long I, or anyone can do the same thing over and over and over without some definite rewards or incentives. Random chance only appeals to compulsive gamblers.
Every argument that says roadblock is bad or stopping progression is bad, is not a good one. The roadblocks are there for reasons stated.
As for the new players, it used to be 100 energy and then you are done for the day. That is a huge block to new players that want to play this casually, not knowing if the 100 mist is all that they will get everyday. Not to mention the 1600ce cost that players had to buy to upgrade to 5*. Players naturally want things for free, like how you want the heat system to be easier. OOO made it so that if you put more time into it, you will get it for no cost, if time is of no importance to you.
All games are repetitive to some degree, its how much that bothers you that truly effects you as a player.
And since crafting can be completely free of energy now
You have to buy orbs of alchemy with energy. The same exact energy price as it did to craft in previous times depending on star level.
I miss the old system. The mist energy, the heating. the reviving, and the loot. I wish that they would all stay, but we can't all get what we want.
> Every argument that says roadblock is bad or stopping progression is bad, is not a good one.
Right... Because there is no similarity between a barrier at every level that halts progression untill x amount of time is waited/spent, and a physical barrier that is put in place to stop you moving foreward untill someone else deems it so.
I'm not saying it should be the same as before, just saying that it could be improved upon that isnt just a backwards version of how it was before. Limiting your options so that it either takes a gratuitous amount of time, or you pay money.
Can be free doesn't mean definitely is free. These orbs can be found in clockworks, whereas energy in itself could not.
I realize that failing something sucks, but its a gamble. Your proposed system gets rid of the risky part of using less fire crystals. You didn't get decreasing revive costs in the old system. You don't get more krogmo coins for losing repeated coliseum games. You don't get more crowns everytime you put up an item on ah hoping to get some nice bids on it and instead have it sell for a much lower price.
Instead of running rjp and fsc repeatedly for heat to level gear and crowns to sustain the dives made on crystal energy, players now have a choice. To continue doing the same thing for the cr payout to buy the materials for the forge, or to run clockworks instead of missions, sacrificing potential crown gains to obtain the fire crystals and orb needed to level.
Edit: On my phone, so I was typing this as your post came through. Working on the reply
My thoughts on this huge update is that OOO wanted to make elevators free to stop players from being scared away at the play limit of mist energy. Thus, they have to balance the game around it. Instanced loot and forge are the biggest part of that balancing. To stop the potential abuse of dragging dead alts, and stopping players from obtaining equipment too fast in order to get said players to come back. Because elevators are free, and the crown output was not truly changed, crowns themselves are becoming more plentiful. Just look at how the ce prices have dropped.
The crafting ce costs have been dropped, changed to the orbs. To entice players, they made the orbs drop in clockworks. Every orb you pick up and use, is ce saved compared to the old system. Low level players have Vatel selling the lowest two fire crystals to promote them getting into the game. I dislike the way that anything under 100% seems to be misleading, but I've only used the forge once, and on 100%. I also dislike the lack of easily available information on orb and fire,crystal drops and their location. But it is a necessity for sk to keep players in the game.
It seems Spiral Knights is infested with the absolute worst sort of player too; In this case, the MMO variant of said character, that doesn't understand that a game relies on a wide customer base having fun in order to generate the profits that keep their game alive... instead, they are so obsessed with maintaining their sense of elitist achievement at all costs, even if real life cost is the only way they achieved it, that they will insult and denigrate that user base rather than open up more of the game to them.
So here we have Spiral Knights; any objective person will spot straight away that choking off item progress, which opens up actual new content, is a bad idea. Worse, they can see that a system which drops Heat in game that instantly goes to waste and thus infuriates a player with every single mob and crate pop is just terrible design, even if they've opened up the elevators; most MMOs allow the basic content to be free to play, and charge for faster progression or visual perks. Spiral Knights throttles progression automatically, but because that allows the sort infesting this thread to feel superior, they can't see the problem with that... although a trip to the nearest bar, a sidle up to some hot single, and whispering in their ear "Hey Babe/Bob, have I told you how elite I am at a computer game?" should illustrate the worth of that nicely.
No, what matters is people find their hobbies fun, people want to be Fun Guys/Gals, and aren't So Serious about them. Spiral Knights under the new system, apart from looking for Ore to level my Drakon, just isn't fun. Yesterday, running with weaker gear just to use the Heat, I managed to fail a 95% chance to heat a L4 item. And still haven't found any 5* flames in any area I can reach. That was an evening of Not Fun. And so personally as a casual, I haven't had it grab my interest once more. Which means people will walk away from the game, including myself I'm thinking. And with me, any chance of investing there might have been. Which isn't good for any small fish in the MMO sea.
Personally, I'd have moved the money-gate to the Shadow/End game area if possible, and left it in the accelerating progress, maybe something associated with blinging the guild halls, rather than strangling actual gameplay....
+1 to Appletize, and a +100 to the first paragraph: How many times have I felt like the game is only filled with SHFGs just because of a single whinging post?
The incentive for forging is to increase your equipments power. You don't have to increase its power.
I'm not sure if this was addressed, but the first sentence is only partially true, and the second is mostly false: your equipment still has the level restrictions in Alchemy, meaning you still have to level 3 and four star gear in order to upgrade it. Only 5 star gear can go on by without needing to be heated, along with 0/1 star, or Tier 2 gear specifically for Lockdown.
spending 3 days leveling my nightblade into an archeron (now stuck on lvl 8) once it's 5* it doesn't realy matter that much (ok the extra damage/armor is nice to have though) but i missed out on A LOT of heat because it won't store the heat the way it did before :(
i dunno, it feels like a flawwed system
Pretty obvious that the goal here is to get people playing longer with more road blocks in the way to encourage you to shell out money to skip the grinding. Under the old system it took a long time to get the energy for crafting your gear, but it leveled up pretty fast to the next tier. Now, under the new system, you get your gear fast w/ the orbs but then it takes a long time to level it.
Wait till you see when you get to heat 4* and 5* stuff to around level 7, 8,9 and 10. You start needed around 64 crystals to level up with 100%, it's insane. And you cant buy your way out of it: 350 and 700 energy for only 50 crystals? That doesnt even guarantee a level up!
The new heating system is atrocious (specially when you are heating multiple stuff) but it's mostly to balance the fact that elevators are now free :\