That game has a monthly fee, and it is basically the most successful because it was first. And even they are moving towards smaller and smaller instances.

I think that by automatically binding the items it will increase the values of the materials involved in making them.
If this was not done the new auction house, which will potentially offer a huge selection of materials, would seriousley devalue the mat costs.
It now means that if you want to have a 5* sword you're going to have to put some work in yourself to make it rather than having lots of people in 5* that have never seen tier 3.
I don't mind either way as i never buy pre-made items, but i do buy some times buy materials if i'm struggling for the drops.

Loneknight, i see your point. i've read a few more threads and the only thing that will keep people crafting, token equipments, is to get UV's. Other equipments where the chain starts at a lower level will just rage craft low levels then only build up once to 5*.
Recipe prices will prob rise for a while though.
Also i didn't know about the increased ce charges to craft the items, that's going to make it really difficult for free to play players to craft:( Please disregard my earlier ignorance.
I'll continue to play, though all my gear is currently at 4*, and i'm not looking forward to spending all theat energy to complete them.

ALL other MMORPGs allow you to FIND high end gear as loot drops, instead of FORCING you to use real cash to CRAFT them. Spiral Knights cannot be considered as a regular MMORPG, because it depends on micro-transactions to run, instead of monthly subscriptions. Three rings has just shifted the focus from running dungeons and fighting bosses, to grinding CE, grinding CE, and some more grinding CE. How do I run vanaduke without first grinding 6000 ce for crafting a full 5* set of gear? And since CE is now needed so much for crafting, the crown-CE ratio will be rising exponentially, probably to 7k crowns for 100 ce. That means i'd have to grind 420,000 crowns just to craft. Have fun grinding that many crowns, now that you can't just level up 5* eq and sell it for profit. I'd give you two months before you can even buy a full set of gear.

• MeSako
  I like the new patch.. now we must PLAY the game to get our stuff.. instead of just standing around in haven waiting for someone to sell 5* gear to us..
  And in NO single MMORPG have I been able to trade high end gear, (I have played alot, both f2p and p2p)
  I was acctually suprised that I could do that here when I first started to play..

Actually, Sega's main "MMO", Phantasy Star Online's, had a player market based on the trading of High-End rares (and cheating/duplication, but that's another topic entirely...). Though the main reason it "worked" for PSO was because you couldn't buy your way into high-level equipment like you could in SK.

@Gigafreak

I'll say the same here I have said in the response thread. The crafting costs have NOT been balanced. Yes, they lowered crown costs. However, crowns can easily be obtained in game through grinding. CE is money based ONLY. This means they said, "crafting is now based less on how much you play the game, and more on how much money you hand over to us".

Don't let the energy market fool you. That's purely player created. And once people start needed more CE to craft, you can expect to see a huge jump in crown to ce rates, probably to the tune of 6-7k cr for 100 ce. Ultimately, no matter how the transactions occur, for every recipe that is now crafted, Sega makes about $2 more overall, since those extra CE had to come from SOMEONE having purchased it with cash at some point, even if it wasn't you.

"The increase in CE crafting cost is probably meant to balance the lowered crown cost of recipes and to punish people who have alt-accounts devoted to crafting 3* items with their free mist."

If it's meant to hit those players, they did it the wrong way around.

They should have doubled materials requirements, not energy, if they wanted to squeeze out alt-crafting.

At the 5000-crown price point CE was at before the patch, a 5* item's recipe would have cost 400 more CE-worth than it does now.

5* crafting now costs 500 more CE.

If CE were at the 4000-Crown price point from a few weeks previous, it'd be a break-even deal.

It's not at either of those price points anymore, of course, but this is the environment they were looking at when they decided on this change.

The problem is, CE prices are rapidly rising due to the fact that it's being consumed so much more quickly.

And buying CE with real money puts a $70 price tag on your character.

I can see why the change was needed, I just think the change went too far.

• Tsuyoi
  The point is you CAN'T compare spiral to other MMORPGs. and For spiral, 2 months grinding is a LOT of time. All other major MMOs have VAST worlds with almost limitless paths/monsters/quests for you to discover/fight/do. Spiral on the other hand, has a handful of monsters that are forever recycled, a handful of levels that are forever recycled, and a handful of weapons that are forever recycled. See the problem? Literally, in 2 days, you can do every dungeon in the game and fight every monster in the game. YOU CANNOT DO THAT IN ANY OTHER MMORPG.

  Also, it costs way more than $20 to buy a full set of gear on spiral. 5* gear typcialy goes for 3000 ce a piece. 7 is 21k ce. That's more like... $100?

...Have you actually grinded in other MMO's? It usually involves finding the most efficient way of getting value for your runs, and doing that same run over and over. Grinding never involves exploring and discovering, and if you're doing that you're actually "playing the game", which practically is the opposite. So it doesn't matter if SK doesn't have expansive worlds, the people who grind in those other MMOs are not venturing off and looking for unknown things; they do the same thing in the same place over and over.

Also, $20 was an understatement, but that's what I had to pay to get almost 4 pieces of 5*. I don't know where you're getting 7, since players who buy into the game are very unlikely to diversify their arsenal. And I sell my 5* at a little over 2k (well, was about to before update lol), and so do many others (was gonna be THE person for Vog and Sealed sets...). So I might be an exception, but let's take someone who is new to the game and buys 5* at their real market rate of 2.5kCE, with 5-7 pieces of gear comes out to 12.5-17.5 CE. So really it's closer to $35-$45. But honestly? That's the price of a console game, or 5 months of playing a paid MMO, and who can jump up to Best-tier of an MMO in 5 months starting as a new player? Forget that, even in a year?

• Tsuyoi
  They completely ####ed up the popularity part.

• datsy08
  Yeah Agree with that for sure with Tsuyoi.. Popularity probably dropped to 40% of players now? For those who had found out.

Now this is where I can see you guys are more emotional with your response, because you really have no concrete basis for assuming these things aside from the vocal "minority". Yes, the people complaining do seem like the minority, because it's very unlikely that most of the players in this game actually are so well versed in the market place and crafting for other people. Casual players are barely hurt, and just see others complaining since they won't see so much difference if they didn't think to buy their way into high-level gear too.

I should know since I was much more casual before deciding to spend money into the game. Total cost of crafting barely raised for self crafters. Many are just on Tier 1 anyway.

I found out about the game and liked it because of the gameplay not because of the in-game markets and ease-of-upgradability.

@Volebamus

You're digging yourself into a hole here. The MOST HATED ASPECT of ANY MMORPG is grinding. That's why most mmos go through such lengths to try to either make it enjoyable (new maps, new worlds, new weapons), or limit how much of it has to be done (faster leveling, PLAYER TO PLAYER TRADE). Spiral on the other hand has made it THE MAIN FOCUS OF THE GAME.

NO ONE ever plays an mmorpg going "oh joy, GRINDING! I LOVE it!" No, they do it to achieve something more, whether it's fighting various major bosses, exploring even harder zones, or doing guild based PvP, NONE of which Spiral currently offers.

Also, your quoted market price of 2k-2.5k CE is a very low estimate. Maybe for DAs and argents, but majority of shields/armor pieces and bombs go for 3k at least. I know for a fact that I sold 3 shields, 2 armor pieces, and 3 bombs for at least 2.7k a piece, going up to 3.5k at the high end. And if you plan on doing tier 3 runs, especially vanaduke, you definitely need AT LEAST 3 weapons, 1 gun, 1 bomb, 1 sword. 3 weapons + 2 armor + 1 shield is AT LEAST 6 pieces of eq, if you don't plan on diversifying AT ALL. MOST players choose to have at least 3 swords (one DA/Gran, one levi/CIV, one dread venom/wild hunting), 2 guns (argent plus 1 cc gun), and 2 bombs (graviton/shiver or ash/shiver). That means the MINIMUM you need is 6 pieces, which is 18k ce, and the norm is more like 9-10 pieces, or 27-30k ce. Market price for CE is $50 for 10k ce. I don't see how you got the $35-45, even with your own estimate of 12.5k ce. That's still like $60.

By more realistic estimates, its more like $100 for a set that you can comfortably play the entire game with.

• Tsuyoi
  Also, 300+ negative responses is hardly a minority.

It is a vocal minority when you factor in that:
1) Most people who play don't even bother to post on its official forums, especially with a super-casual game like this.
2) Many of those responses are people saying the same thing in different threads, or even the same thread several times.

• Tsuyoi
  You're digging yourself into a hole here. The MOST HATED ASPECT of ANY MMORPG is grinding.

Lol, you think that 1) I'm defending these updates, and 2) I DON'T know grinding is reviled? If you read my first post in the thread, I said the one great thing about this game I liked was that you can skip grinding if you can pay real money. I ALSO said that I had recently become someone who is able to become self sustaining by selling my 5* crafts. Speaking of which...

• Tsuyoi
  Also, your quoted market price of 2k-2.5k CE is a very low estimate.
  ...
  Market price for CE is $50 for 10k ce. I don't see how you got the $35-45, even with your own estimate of 12.5k ce. That's still like $60.

You're right though, technically for someone who's new they wouldn't know the real market value of these 5*. It seems that most who make these do not as well.

However, check how much CE you can buy for $20. However, you know your estimate for the full 7-item 5* gear as a little over 21kCE (using horribly inflated prices anyway)? Guess how much CE you can get for $50? From the price guide:
20,000 Energy for $49.95 USD
For the price of a console game, you've become from newbie to S-Class of an MMO. Fantastic really.

...

On a side note, it's not just the Sealed Sword series that should be this low, ALL 5* should be this low. The only reason the Sealed Swords line dropped like this is because more people have outbid each other to create the real market equilibrium for that item. In reality, other 5* should have the same eventual price point, but it's because most people don't have access to 5* recipes that the population doesn't see this.

And you know the reason I'm saying all of this? Before the update, I MYSELF was going to be the one to usher in the era of 2K 5* items. I started with Gran Faust, but I was going to move into the Vog Cub series, then 5* Totise shield, then other 5* once I made enough profits. Even selling it at 2K, I factored in a profit margin of 80%, and I would still be ridiculously low enough to undercut competitors for quite a while before they saw how inflated their prices were as well.

If anything, I felt like the update was truly against the people like me who saw how ridiculous the current high-end market was and could bring it to our uses. So no, I'm not "pleased" by this update by any means, so don't assume that again.

• datsy08
  Market prices raised.. its like 4*-5* equips are 5 - 15kCE now.. From the in-game experience that I was observing.
  Don't know if it would be stable on that price.
  Hopefully it will drop..the economy change is too.. extreme.

  Before update: 3kCE = 5* D.A
  Now: 10kCE = 5* D.A

  Changed Dramatically.. Maybe give it a month or so? or when next patch comes out :) they'll do something about it soon.

Wait, are you serious? It's so high? That's ridiculous...

I KNEW IT. People have no idea what the true prices of things are in this marketplace, and it's become more obvious after the update. If they had even bothered to calculate the material costs, CE costs, the (now becoming negligible) crown cost, and the costs of leveling the item, there is NO WAY it should reach 5k CE.

Exception is if these items have good UV's, then I'd understand. But anything near vanilla? Oh lol...

SlyJohnny
With the recent patch, every single pre-existing unbound 4* or 5* item is now effectively an irreplaceable unique, Volebamus. As people buy them and bind them, the supply of unbound 4* and 5* items will dwindle, and no new unbound items will be created to replace them. People are buying them up now while they still can.

Of course I know that. What people who buy inflated vanilla 5* aren't seeing is that they can make their own for a fraction of the price, with a decent amount of Jelly Runs for the leveling.

And the main reason I know that is because I've NEVER considered buying 5* equipment for anywhere near 2.5k before the update, because I knew I could make them myself for big savings once I sell a second for easy profit.

Post update, the amount of mats+CE+crowns+leveling attempt does NOT equal ANYWHERE NEAR even 3k, yet people who are part of this current 5* buying market fail to see that.

Vole you are a [lovely flower], this patch needs to go.

EDIT: No personal attacks, please, per the forum guidelines: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1413

Some people don't want to slog through a dozen clockwork runs to level up their gear. They want to pay someone else to do it for them. You can't put a price on that; your worldview doesn't allow for it.

The funny thing is, changing the crafting costs would have limited 4-5* sales by itself. I don't understand why they had to explicitly kill the market when simple incentives would have worked.

• GodofSkype1
  Vole you are a [lovely flower], this patch needs to go.

Aw, aren't you such a kind board troll :3

But if you did pay attention, I never ONCE said I liked these changes. If anything I said the opposite. But since you are just a board troll, you're just making yourself look ridiculous on purpose just to have some fun, so yeah lolz.

• Khaim
  Some people don't want to slog through a dozen clockwork runs to level up their gear. They want to pay someone else to do it for them. You can't put a price on that; your worldview doesn't allow for it.

...I'm pretty sure I can put a price on that, and it's not as high as other people's. I'm honestly not even sure what you're saying, since your comments don't really sound like it's a proper insult, especially with the whole "worldview" comment. Rewrite your comment so that I understand exactly what you find so critical about my assessment in the first place.

But really, people will pay an additional 3K CE just to avoid a little bit of grinding? I REALLY hope these aren't the same people who farm for crowns in Jelly Runs, because that's EXACTLY the same thing... Aside from being having 1% of the efficiency of JK runs...