Spiral Knights - Why the lastest patch is going to kill this game

Why the lastest patch is going to kill this game

11 replies [Last post]

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 05:30

Zaekk

I'd like to start out with saying that I am a paying customer and when you pay for games like this its kind of like investing in a company so I feel that my opinion should be greatly considered as I am part of what keeps you running.

Aside from that the latest patch has pissed me off a bit and I'm not just going to say that and leave it there. I don't think that the recipe cost increase was a great idea, incrementally change it don't almost TRIPLE the cost of an item; more importantly there is a mismatched price increase to the quality increase between 4* and 5* items. My idea to change/fix this is to not increase the price of the max so that you're falsely injecting content into the game but to increase new content. Here is my proposal: create 5 star bronze, silver, gold and platinum items. It continues with the current scheme for the level system and it would create a further goal to shoot for increasing the length of the game without slapping the paying customer in the face. Obviously the core is mildly disappointing right now and in the future you'll change it and obviously this will take a while to do as theres a lot of work involved, however if you create more content then you will end up with a better game, more recognition and more customers. The last thing the mmo market needs is another medicore game.

I understand why you removed the basil port ability but I don't like it, it would be a much better idea to just attach a player controlled fee to being invited to a dungeon. I know that sounds weird/unorthodox but the whole point of having a fun game is being able to do things that you normally can't do. As soon as you start taking away freedoms from the player you're destroying the illusion. This also applies to being able to buy items on shop floors. If you're going to allow people to sell recipes there is no reason to prevent them from being invited to buy them.

Finally, and potentially most importantly; crafting costs. If you're going to change something in a semi-player run economy, don't increase the cost by more than 100%. Incremental changes make sure to stabilize and more importantly see the player response. Personally I don't think this should be even entertained because 300 NRG + 5000 cr (effectively 400 NRG) is extremely expensive for such a slight performance gain, sure the aesthetics are generally great but not everyone cares about that and now that we have costume creation it doesn't matter. Related to costume creation I think it would be peachy keen to allow people to have shield costumes, I HATE the way owlite looks but I prefer the stats.

The auction house is great and I love it but the other changes to the game economy are awful considering how long and arduous the task is to get 5* weapons/armour. Please spend more time creating content, not limiting our ability to obtain current content.

Fellow players I urge you to post a response/encouragement so Three Rings can see how much we care about this game and how much we want it to be the best game it can be. The more support this thread gets the more they'll pay attention to it. If you disagree with me I urge you to respond as well and explain your reasoning. This is a push to create something truly great, like my favourite MMORPG, EVE Online.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 07:00

Runeologic

Legacy Username

Like the original poster, I

Like the original poster, I am a paying customer and have enjoyed Spiral Knights up until now but the recent update has raised a few issues with how I play. While I agree with the original poster completely I feel there is one thing that was not mentioned concerning the new update and that is crafted items being bound to the crafter for higher level items.

I play Spiral Knights with a friend and up until now we have had a system where we would go in the clockworks together, gather resources and then I would buy all of the recipes and make all of the items for us. Now, we have only just got to the stage where we are crafting 4* items and before the update I reasoned that i would just level up two of each item and upgrade one for me and one for my friend but now that's not possible, everything will be bound to me.

The reason this is such a big concern for me is that If I can’t play with my friend if I level up past them, the game is no longer fun, it loses that social aspect, I may as well play a single player offline game because there is nothing we can do to help each other out... people should be rewarded for playing together and helping each other out, not punished for it as that goes against what makes an MMO great.

I am a games design student myself and I understand the main function is to make money, understandable but the best way to do this is to have a great game that allows people to come on, socialise, have fun, be able to do what they want and not feel limited. For my particular problem there are three solutions I can see;

1: Don't bind objects to the crafter.
2: Allow the trade of bound items but not the use of them.
3: Akin to World of Warcraft, in the trade window add in a "craft slot" This allows someone you are trading with to put an item there that someone can then use as a craft material.

I Hope that Three Rings reads this thread as I want spiral knights to be a great game, and you don't do that by limiting people, once I have paid for energy they have my money, I should be able to spend it on what or whomever I choose.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 15:26

DeeCee85

Legacy Username

Noteworthy issues

Disclaimer: Lengthy, cuz I'm a sucker for detail and justification of my opinions.

Noteworthy issues and possible solutions
P# = problem
S# = possible solution

P1 - People who are crafters by passion and not necessity are getting screwed. Many people in the game, myself included, craft simply because they like crafting. I've crafted in every game I've played. From SK to Rifts open beta to WoW to SWG and all the way back to Diablo 2's horadric cube. A ton of the recipes people have learned were NOT for them. I personally wasn't interested in the entire Brandish or Flourish series but I had them up to 4* to craft for others and sell. I know a guy with every sword recipe in the game and plenty more (~200 recipes learned), I haven't seen him log in since the patch was released and he was a daily player.

---S1--- Runeologic read my mind at some point. As soon as the patch came out I said the exact same thing. Don't bind the items themselves, simply bind the *control* of items such as deleting, equipping, and vendoring. Johnny levels a 3* item to 5 and gives to Billy for upgrading - Billy can't use it, delete it, or vendor it since it doesn't belong to him, there's no reason for him to be dishonest. Billy upgrades the item to 4* and charges Johnny a reasonable service fee. This would allow crafters to once again have a legit reason for having 18273 recipes learned. If you really wanted to give players an incentive to craft their own stuff, maybe provide a UV % chance bonus if the item you're upgrading is bound to you. i.e. I have a level 10 4* I'm upgrading to 5* with my own recipe, give me a 5% increased chance @ UV. Just a thought, out of many..

P2 - Tons of materials are now much more useless than before because of A: the auction house, B: items 4*+ by majority are bound. I love the AH, but it did naturally contribute to the decline in material value due to open competition. With that said, I believe the root of the problem is a lack of material dump within the game. Vendor values are extremely laughable at ... 1-2-5-10-25 per material? Something like that.. Anyway its crap - nobody would vendor anything at those rates. Since people only UV craft at the lowest level possible, 3*+ materials are filling inventories. Selling most of these materials works decently on the AH but it hardly solves the issue if at all.

---S2.0--- Increase the vendor value of materials. As I said it's currently laughable and nobody in the game who needs money would actually do it. i.e. Anyone who isn't rich.

---S2.1--- Introduce another form of material dumping. My suggestions include:
--------S2.1.0--- material to mineral conversion in the form of selecting a color and getting X amount of minerals based on the * of the material. 0* could reward 2 minerals, 1* - 5, 2* - 25, etc. But using this would have to be worth it. If you BS the players like you have with material vendor values... they won't do it. Nobody is going to want to trade a 5* material for a mere 10 minerals, not even a Royal Core. This system implemented would allow players more control and capability to shape the gates. It's always this face ----0.o---- to see nothing but one color of a mineral on an entire level.

--------S2.1.1--- material to material conversion in the form of re-purposing them. Combine 'x' 2* materials to produce a single random 3* material. And in the other direction as well, deconstruct a single 5* material to produce 'x' 4* materials.

--------S2.1.2--- material investing to increase UV chance. Spend 2x, 3x, 4x the materials to get 2x, 3x, 4x the default chance @ UV. This idea I expect you will immediately frown at since I'm sure you guys smile every time someone rage crafts 100 wolver coats hoping for a decent UV and spends a ton of CE in the process. Which leads to my next suggestion..

--------S2.1.3--- Rune Crafting: (separate from UVs) Allow players to pick a bonus such as Fire Resist for the rune being crafted > provide the materials > charge them a modest fee such as 200 crowns 5 CE > produce rune (labeled sword, gun, bomb, shield, etc) > attach to item. The rune produced is where balance and chance comes into play. Since UVs are already in the game - I suggest limiting runes to Low and Medium, where Medium would be the best, rare, and expensive runes. Do something like 5% chance @ medium. Alternatively - increase the cost substantially and let players choose the strength outright. Since we're limited to Maximum!, maybe someone wouldn't even want medium fire resist if they already have Ultra. Low runes could cost 400cr/50ce like a 2* item with medium runes being considerably more expensive. Additionally - rare high runes could also be dropped loot that couldn't be crafted... which brings me to the next problem.

P3 - Loot, loot drops, and the economy. It's no secret you guys were/are trying to balance resource dumps in the game while promoting your own profits. Free games aren't free.. someone paid for it's development somewhere. This supports my firm belief as to why we only see an actual item drop once every 500 levels. If craftable items started dropping reasonably often... well - less crafting would take place.. which ultimately results in less real money from CE purchases. What developer wants that to happen, right? I've played a ton since I started and I recall seeing 2 items drop - ever. A hot edge and a 2* shield recipe I can't even remember what it was.

---S3--- There just needs to be another layer.. or 2.. or 3... My rune suggestion fits this layer. You could also make tokens more valuable. Introduce better versions of items that can only be purchased with tokens. i.e. Calibur X, Calibur 2.0, Calibur Ex, Calibur+, Calibur++, Calibur#, Calibur markup language, something. I know this game wasn't meant to be Diablo - and it shouldn't be. Nick said it best.. this game is all about the item hunt. What items? I think someone at TR realized at some point there wasn't enough. I think people were starting your game, loving it, investing $50 in CE, buying what they wanted to hit tier 3, realizing the game was very rinse repeat at that point with a lot less goals to achieve, getting bored and quitting. So you come up with this crazy ass "extend the game" idea. The changes that were implemented weren't necessarily incorrect or bad choices, but this was definitely the WRONG TIME TO DO IT. Your game today is the same as your game a week ago, just more of a pain in the ass. You needed more in the patch to support the changes of item binding and inflation of crafting costs. More than an AH anyway. There's no buffer between the swift kick in the face. There has to be balance, yin and yang people.. You can't give us 10% yin, 90% yang, and then expect the players to say thanks for the yin.

A prime example of this kick in the face I spoke of.. I had three 4* items level 10 and ready to hit 5*. I delayed upgrading them intentionally so that I could funnel heat to other things for a while. Specifically, 4* items I was working on to craft and sell. But now all of a sudden and without fair warning my gear upgrades that would've cost 900 CE now cost 2400? Massive increase in cost for the same exact result? I was thoroughly pissed and so were/are many many people. The difference is I care enough to write this where others just washed their hands of it.

In closing..
I know the game hasn't been released long. I have no doubt there a ton of great ideas at Three Rings about where to take Spiral Knights. Features and content will come with time. There are more issues in the game than just these, for sure. I mention these problems mainly because I see them as relatively easy to fix or implement as opposed to entire tiers or enemies or boss encounters. The most complicated of what I mentioned being the runes. Everything else is just modifying or building on existing interface architecture with behind-the-scenes dataz to modify some variables. As far as upgraded items purchased with tokens.. I imagine it would be as simple as just duplicating the items already in the game except make them slightly faster or stronger and stick them into the vendor. I'm not going to pretend to understand what needs to be done to get this stuff done and I'm not trying to dumb it down either. I just now its gotta be easier than creating playable content and implementing it. Good luck guys - I'll be around, this game has lots of potential.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 18:28

Lithanium

wow.

Let me just say something: I've been playing this game for quite a bit, and i haven't had a SINGLE item drop. i haven't even seen my teammates get one.

Also, DeeCee85, i can tell you are really affected by this update. you spent all that time to just make a single post.and Billy might just keep the item forever to annoy johnny

as for you Three Rings, that was pretty annoying with your update. I'm relatively new yet have been playing awhile: about a month or so. one blast at a jelly cube and i was hooked. so I've been working pretty hard. i upgraded 1 sealed sword and made it a Faust, sold it for a magnificent 600 CE. it was such a good profit (yet such a good deal) i doubled my efforts to kill that royal jelly.

Then came the update.

I was devastated. at first i didn't mind when i saw that the CE prices for crafting is more, that was balanced by the recipe reduction cost.

Then i saw it.

I practically cried. i had made one Faust, and guess what happened? i can no longer make Fausts for other people. the advanced training hall, i found, was basic, the auction house was overpriced,(it was still okay though) and tons of businesses were going out of business. (like a guild with dozens of people who, pooled, have every single blaster recipe)

On the trade chat, dozens of people who knew the effect of this turned into vultures, swooping down and accepting random junk from people who quit.

Now, instead of buying a sunset stetson for 600 CE, i have to buy the recipe, and make it for 700 CE (materials+crowns+CE+buying recipe for 10k).

SO! enough of my life story. i have many suggestions for these many problems!

Problem 1: unbound 4* and 5* items are essentially discontinued.

Solution(s): repeal that update altogether. friends tell friends and eventually many people (including your paying customers Three Rings) will flock back to Spiral Knights.
Have the strangers in the bazaar sell 4 and 5* for a cheap price ( say, 30k for a 4* item?)
as i first started the game, someone told me that you need CE for crafting. i thought it was, the alchemy machine is connected to the trade. someone had the recipe, and they add some stuff to the in-trade alchemy machine, and the other person added the final essential ingredient:the 3 or 4 * item. they can also trade other stuff or add some of their own materials. in the end, the person without the recipe gets the item. try it that way.

Problem 2: crafting costs way too high. i wouldn't really mind crafting my own 4* item if the energy costs were marginally raised or even better, untouched, but this 100% increase is ridiculous. it basically turned you into, as you say in the billing FAQ, hard-nosed-businesspeople.

Solution(s):i understand you need a profit, so you simply marginally DEcrease the energy costs for the elevator maybe? this will leave more energy for crafting, help those poor noobs who need energy, and you will still make some money from the people who want to craft items. doing so, you may be able to increase the crafting costs even MORE without making people angry.

problem 3: lower tokens! notice how the new max tokens per boss kill is now 3. the MINIMUM use to be 3, and what is really annoying is fighting lord vanaduke 16 times and only having 48 almirian seals... if you guys are going to decrease the production rates of 5* items, make them easier to get at the token trader. a fang of vog: 5*, 50 almirian seals. 17 lord vanduke kills for that is maddening. it used to be only like 13 for fang of vog(OK, probably more, once again, I'm relatively new) and by the time you can kill that lord, you'll already have 5* anyway, making you question the point of the fang of vog.

solution(s):perhaps making things unbound for the token trader.
making better items for the royal jelly, and future bosses
lowering token costs

thats all i can think of at the moment, let me just say it's still a gr8 game, i play it all the time, and good night folks!

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 05:53

JackOfSparks

Legacy Username

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Brevity is the soul of wit. -Aristotle

Every update brings cries of "DOOOOOOOOOM" and, it seems like, in general, players are more afraid of the change itself, than what it entails.

Personally, I appreciate the increased cost of 4* and 5* equipment, and the inability to just buy your way to the top. Now, you have to prove you've actually earned that Gran Faust you're swinging around.

But, of course, people will continue to whine about this being THE END OF SPIRAL KNIGHTS AS WE KNOW IT, at least until the next major update.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 06:32

Azurenightmare

"Now, you have to prove

"Now, you have to prove you've actually earned that Gran Faust you're swinging around."

Yes! Killing jelly king 10 times in a row and buying the recipes from the AH sure proves I'm worthy!

Worthy to spend a load of cash on CE that is.

The only thing that changed is that you need to do more grinding. If you think that makes you worthy, you may as well go back to WoW, or even better, RO.

Okay, that sounded offensive, but my point stands. I don't see why you should be entitled to exclusivity for beinng able to do a repetitive task more often than another person (who is willing to pay to not have to do these tasks).

PS.: The game isn't dying though. Just saying that it became a lot more grindy.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 06:18

Pawn

I still love the game. Not dead yet here :)

Thu, 05/26/2011 - 16:24

DeeCee85

Legacy Username

@ This: "Brevity is the soul

@ This:

"Brevity is the soul of wit. -Aristotle

Every update brings cries of "DOOOOOOOOOM" and, it seems like, in general, players are more afraid of the change itself, than what it entails.

But, of course, people will continue to whine about this being THE END OF SPIRAL KNIGHTS AS WE KNOW IT, at least until the next major update."

=====================================

I believe Aristotle was implying wit is best executed briefly, needing no explanation yet still potent. I didn't have anything witty to say therefore why be brief. Are legal documents brief? >_<

@ patch stuff.. It was just a poor time to implement the change is the main issue. The title of this thread is poorly named by my friend Zaekk. The patch obviously isn't going to "kill the game" because noobs are still pouring in by the minute. The AH is great except the issue of materials being dirt cheap 3*+ and too expensive 0-2*. The problem is if they want longevity in their player base and to keep veteran crafters from getting majorly pissed and quitting the game they desperately needed more content to backup the changes they made. Is there even a reason to kill royal jelly now once u have the items yourself? Nope. The few gems I bother getting end up as swordstones and put towards disappointing Calibur ragecrafts. With time the game will bloom but that patch was poorly executed given the current state of the game. There's really no need to continue reiterating anything else I said in that epic tale above. Its a dying horse and soon the topic of "this patch is fail" will be dead completely.

Thu, 05/26/2011 - 16:44

Aggron

Legacy Username

Well they're fine tuning the

Well they're fine tuning the AH which is great but the heat amplifier is like an insult.. you can get more heat investing 800 in runs plus crown and loot. Not to mention 20percent is a rip off for 800 CE >.>; Jeebus OOO your not WoW you cant get away with selling a 25 dollar mount just yet

Thu, 05/26/2011 - 17:07

DeeCee85

Legacy Username

this entire thread is

this entire thread is actually referring to the AH patch.. but u have all valid points lol.

Thu, 05/26/2011 - 17:37

#10

Icee

A brief brief on briefs.

> Are legal documents brief?

Briefs are legal documents. Also underwear.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 08:17

#11

cloudsymph

Legacy Username

get rid of the damn item

get rid of the damn item being bound to you. it's horrid >_>

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