Spiral Knights - What happened to this game?

What happened to this game?

52 replies [Last post]

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:28

Laraso

I first found out about Spiral Knights sometime back in November/December (can't remember which) of 2011. Valve was advertising their new (at the time) Steam trading system that allows players to trade items from separate games. Spiral Knights was the first game to jump on board, and there was a promotion where if you made it out of the training camp, you'd get a Spiral Sallet to use in Team Fortress 2.

I tried the game out, and I was surprised at how much I liked it. It had many flaws but I was tolerant because I enjoyed the retro-ish feel of the game, and admired the simplicity. One of the biggest reason why I liked it, however, was for the gameplay. Back then, monsters were actually challenging, and getting through a level - even those within the first few floors - required an observant and tactful mindset. I remember having a rivalry with wolvers in particular, since they were very fast and trying to block their attacks would quickly break your shield. While the mist system wasn't perfect, the game just made sense, and managed to provide an enjoyable experience even with its simplicity.

After a few weeks of playing, I moved on to other games, and never touched Spiral Knights again until I decided to give it another try in December of 2012. What I came back to was nothing less than disappointing. Every monster aside from Devilites had been nerfed into oblivion, effectively removing any challenge the game may have had. The once lively and vibrant arcade was suddenly empty and quiet, as the introduction of missions had effectively destroyed the incentive to go there. Nobody wanted to go through the last few floors in order to get to Firestorm Citadel anymore, instead they just warped there directly via missions. The PvE experience degenerated into nothing but constant FSC grinds, and killing all of the heavily nerfed fire slags and trojans got very old, very fast. Even still, I managed to get a modicum of satisfaction, mainly by purposefully gimping myself (such as going through FSC using nothing but proto armor and the proto gun) to fabricate artificial levels of challenge in order to compensate for the now-completely retarded AI that wouldn't ever be able to kill me otherwise. I came back just a week before the guild update, which was a much needed update that provided guilds with the ability to create their own purpose for existing. That update kept me occupied for a short while, but eventually I once again moved on.

And yet again, here I am, checking up on the current state of Spiral Knights. Just... what happened? It's like playing a completely different game. I haven't dabbled with these new updates for long, but I can say with confidence that everything that once formed the foundation of this game when I first started playing has either been completely removed or heavily altered. I no longer feel the spark I once felt in this game, and sadly I think I may never return, as long as the game stays like this.

Now I know that absolutely nobody cares whether I leave or not, but I just wanted to ask this question before I quit Spiral Knights: Why did this happen? What on Earth happened to make such dramatic sweeping changes to nearly every aspect of the game a necessary thing? Did the community want this? Were these changes actually requested by the players, or was this all done on the whim of OOO?

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:35

The-Mighty-Potato

This game couldn't survive without updates.

Every game needs them. You just got to deal with it.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:38

Laraso

@The-Mighty-Potato

There's a clear distinction between a good update and a bad update.

An example of a good update would be the guild hall update.
An example of a bad update would be the nerfpocalypse, or missions.

(Missions could have been good, but were implemented poorly and as a result it ruined the arcade)

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:39

Batabii

>plays the game for a few measly weeks before giving up
>is surprised an mmo would change in two years

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:42

Laraso

@Batabii

I've played Spiral Knights for 721+ hours, and I've reached endgame. If that's considered too "measly" to justify me having my own opinion, then perhaps I just don't have the dedication necessary to be a "real" player.

This isn't an argument about me, though. I just want my questions answered.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:43

Draycos

It's not about the game changing, full stop, Batabii. It's about the bad changes being bad. Missions, nerfed enemies, etc.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:52

Agent-Fungoose

The pet thing is something

The pet thing is something requested by the community, mostly dragon geeks and girls, but I'll learn to cope with it. Now, I do agree with you on the first three paragraphs; you are absolutely dead on right. But the last one, your conclusion, not so much. This is a great change for the game, since the Arcade is slowly being revived. The game is now playable for everyone, as in, we can all play whenever we want with whomever and not go worrying about saving precious mist energy. My guild is now actually becoming a guild! None of the members are quitting!! We all stay online for long periods of time, we have discussions, we run in the arcade together; it's quite nice, Spiral Knights could be reaching up to it's potential now. All OOO needs to do to make this game popular is to advertise it mainstream wise, to the public, since I now have no doubts of recommending Spiral Knights. It's just up to OOO if they want to bring a bunch of snobby elitist brats to take over our community. Will they choose money or the community? Indeed the question of my knight's life.

No, I am not a fan of the nerfs; I prefer difficult UI performance over more health on monsters. Pretty much majority of the community sucks at this game, so in order to keep people content and stopping them from ragequitting, nerfs were made. That's money walking out the door for OOO! hurhur

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:47

Batabii

My mistake, I skimmed the middle paragraph. Still, I started on june 14 and have 2053 hours...I don't know how you could say you "Felt a spark" yet still missed so many updates.

draycos: missions did more good than bad, and most enemy nerfs were justified (and there's still a few badly OP ones)

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:03

Laraso

@Bushido-Brownies, Batabii

@Bushido Brownies:
As I said, I haven't spent too much time exploring these new updates. It was, however, very apparent that much had changed, and I did not feel like it was for the better. I plan on spending a little more time looking through the changes tomorrow, but I don't think my opinion will change much. It's not just these newer updates in particular, it's an amalgam of various changes and updates that have occurred since the day I started playing. Not all of them were bad, but it's not hard to say that if you were to play this game the way it was two years ago, it would feel worlds apart from how it is now. Obviously, not everyone shares my opinion, but I'm not here to argue with other people about whether the changes were a good thing or a bad thing.

@Batabii:
I'm not too sure why you think the nerfpocalypse was such a good thing. Perhaps I'm just extremely overestimating the average player, but the enemy attacks are so telegraphed and easy to dodge that I can't help but wonder how anyone could consider such a thing to be "challenging", let alone interesting.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:57

Sweet-Hope

Free elevator rides? Yes a lot of suggestions of people asking elevators that dont cost Energy
No Ce crafting? Yes a lot of suggestion of people about change the craft system
Mist Removal? Yes a lot of suggestion of people wanted it. (in some cases wanted Mist energy to be extended)

most of those changes were asked by the "community" and if i recall correctly someone made a thread about "going to the clockworks with a small chance to get "Free energy as drop" well Spark of life and Orbs of Alchemy works like that. (i dont remember the name of the thread but basically was just give the chance to player to collect small drops of Free Ce from their clockworks runs).

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:02

#10

Batabii

What's your definition of "challenging"? Because it was fine by me. Maybe you needed to solo more, or try some shadow lairs.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:21

#11

Laraso

@Batabii

I played solo the majority of the time, and I already completed the Shadow Lairs. The Shadow Lairs weren't particularly difficult (I made it through them on my first try), but I'd be a liar if I said it wasn't a noticeable step up from normal game play. They did provide a half-decent challenge.

I consider a sense of danger to be "challenging". I do not consider the grind of killing mindless enemies to be "challenging", however.

I prefer enemies who are threatening on their own, and punish careless gameplay. I do not prefer enemies who by themselves are completely harmless, and only pose danger in very large numbers.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:13

#12

Agent-Fungoose

"Why did this happen? What on

"Why did this happen? What on Earth happened to make such dramatic sweeping changes to nearly every aspect of the game a necessary thing? Did the community want this? Were these changes actually requested by the players, or was this all done on the whim of OOO?"

I have a theory; OOO focused a lot on the tutorials and beginner stuff, back before this update. Rather than provide an expansion to the game, for us players at end-game, they instead focused on reworking the rescue camp, making more tutorials, and adding a training hall. On top of that, lots of promos came raining down on us. We haven't had any new weapons in a very long while, no actual expansion; Operation Crimson Hammer is an added mission, I don't see it as an expansion because it's short. So, why would OOO focus so much on reworking the Rescue Camp? Why give us promos about cosmetics when in reality we wanted new weapons and buffs? I think that OOO was failing at attracting the attention of new players. Newbies came and left at very early stages of the game, not even experiencing what it has to offer. OOO was acting both out of whim and listening to the requests of the community. They worked hard to try to grab the attention of potential newbies, but failed to do so, and thus is why this update now exists, because now, the game is being flooded by new players. New players is what increases their income, so without them, OOO wasn't making progress with Spiral Knights. This is what I think is the reason for this update.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:18

#13

Gkldfjsdfjgkldjdjd

I'm with you about everything

I'm with you about everything you said Laraso. That's why I'm quitting after over 3700 hours on record. So sad though.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:23

#14

Batabii

"I prefer enemies who are threatening on their own, and punish careless gameplay"

You just described 3/4 of the enemies in the game, man.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:32

#15

Laraso

@Bushido-Brownies, Batabii

@Bushido-Brownies:
Mostly everything you said rings true. While I'm disappointed that I'm not able to enjoy this game the way I did two years ago, I recognize that the game was stagnating and something needed to be done. With these changes I can't really say this is my kind of game anymore, and it's sad to think that the new players of this generation aren't playing the same game I once loved, but in the end all that really matters is that they're happy with it and the community continues to thrive.

@Batabii:
Say what you want, but personally I don't feel any challenge at all in this game anymore. 99% of attacks can be completely avoided by taking a step to the side. Take Wolvers for instance! If you see an alpha wolver rear up in preparation of its three-bite attack, all you need to do is take one or two steps to the side, and he will charge right past you, blindly attacking the air. You couldn't do that before the nerfpocalypse, since the wolver would actually show some form of awareness and alter his attack direction to face you. The only players that enemies in the current game punish are those who forget how to move their character.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:42

#16

Batabii

"99% of attacks can be completely avoided by taking a step to the side."

If only it was that easy...

"If you see an alpha wolver rear up in preparation of its three-bite attack, all you need to do is take one or two steps to the side, and he will charge right past you, blindly attacking the air. "

Good luck doing that when 5 of them are all over you and constantly moving, not to mention other enemies thrown in the mix.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 01:47

#17

Silent-Echoes

Don't worry Laraso, Batabii

Don't worry Laraso, Batabii was complaining about Gorgos in another thread, for someone whom apparently spent over 1k hours on the game, he's really, really bad at it.

There is still challenge to be had here and there though, try a tier 3 fiend arena on elite for example. Shadow Lairs are neat too, if you can actually afford to run them on a frequent basis.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 02:31

#18

Gravelord-Caste

The Truths don't provide any Answers

To be honest, I'm siding with Batabii on this. It just sounds like the OP is playing the wrong game.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 03:51

#19

Thesamurai

Pointless talk really.

" Why did this happen? What on Earth happened to make such dramatic sweeping changes to nearly every aspect of the game a necessary thing? Did the community want this? Were these changes actually requested by the players, or was this all done on the whim of OOO? "

You can't really blame the community for all of this,now can you? So that leaves the whim of OOO. I have started playing this game since the end of beta sk,and so far I haven't seen any changes of spiral knights. Why is that? because no matter how much they change it for the better they make it as equally worse with their 'innovative' ideas.Yes the community it self asked for every single of updates(guild hall,pets,UI change,no mist,no energy for crafting,etc...) and they did all of those things and listened to the community (sort of) but even though they did what 'we' asked they also did what they wanted.
The over all monster nerf was asked and they have done it but they have removed it completely from the game instead of making in game depths with alpha wolvers so people who want a challenge get one,that was their mistake with that update considering that most people would indeed want to go toes to toes with some alpha wolvers.
Now,it all started with the mission update that was in my opinion done horribly.The game was reduced with nothing more then farming/spaming/grinding.. call it what ever you like,it just ruined the game at one view and made the whole part of the game useless,yes I am talking about the arcade.They made the arcade some random part of the game instead of the main attraction of it. Now with the pet update it has been revived but we can't really just forget the missions now can we? When I started the game,as the new player I had sort of a quest,to seek out Lieutenant Feron in the arcade for more info,like a quest.And why wasn't this,the quest method,implemented in the game rather then the missions one? This was an over all mistake of OOO and their 'innovations' when they had the whole arcade to 'upgrade' they simply added a new thing and ruined the game in quite a number of views.

Sorry for asking questions on your question but I'm trying to make a point here.They simply never intended to max out the over all greatness of this game back in 2011 but they wanted to add something new and instead of testing it they just put it in and just let it be like that.But we have all grown to like the missions when ever we do or don't.Yet instead of making more and more missions to continue their idea for this game they just added what they wanted like danger missions and just left it like that for a year now? And thus they just added and added more content that was asked for in their own way but those ideas were never continued after.

So why did this happen,it happen because every game needs new content to keep the game running.But aside from asking for specific new content,OOO has provided them with their own ways of making profit and that made bad choices of updates just for the over all profit.And that leaves this whole thing with Bushido-Brownies question of "Will they choose money or the community?" But if they have no community they wont make money so they add what we ask like pets but ruin the game in different ways.Those pets need food to level up,so now we have a small problem of them eating every 5 star material in game to reach the top level,and their flavored food needs minerals(red,yellow and purple) for them but they also just ruin the over all placing minerals to gates to make new combination of gates and thus searching for recipes (for example).Now we have blue and green minerals for what? New pets maybe? And that kind of updates wont be for another few months. While before they had mini updates every week or so now they focus on yearly ones. What are we supposed to do now,nothing but spam or simply do the simple thing and quit the game.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 05:01

#20

Remove-The-Forge

I know, right?

What happened to this game?

Well, It used to be good. Then the forge happened.

The End.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 08:56

#21

Laraso

@Batabii

"Good luck doing that when 5 of them are all over you and constantly moving, not to mention other enemies thrown in the mix."

I don't really understand where you're going with this anymore, as you just confirmed exactly what I had been saying. The enemies are retarded individually, and only pose a threat when encountered in large groups.

Even then, it's not challenging by any means to deal with five alpha wolvers. In fact, back when I was still actively playing last year, most people considered wolver dens to be a complete joke, due to the lack of any challenge posed by wolver packs.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 11:38

#22

Batabii

Um, when will you ever face enemies indivudually? Besides, almost EVERY video game ever is like that. The only time individual enemies are a threat is if it's a boss/miniboss. That doesn't mean the game is too easy. And the only time wolver PACKS are "a complete joke" is when you use bombs, and have a lot of open space to move around in. If you're in one of the clockworks tunnels and have a narrow space with lots of alphas, you're bound to be hit at least once, especially if there's spikes and other obstacles to avoid.

Besides that, there's more to the game than wolvers anyway, there's other enemies that are challenging, such as mecha knights, spookats, gorgos, devilites, greavers, thwackers, rocket puppies, giant lichen colonies, quicksilvers, mortafires, stalkers, trojans, lumbers, retrodes (to a degree), deadnauts, etc.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 12:18

#23

Laraso

@Batabii

That is a lie, not all video games are like that. Maybe all of the games you play are like that, but that's not the point here. Listen, I've played this game long enough to have a solid understanding of what is and isn't challenging about this game, so please don't act like I have no idea what I'm talking about. All of the "challenging" monsters you listed have very predictable attack patterns that can be easily avoided, and are simple to deal with for a player who knows what they are doing. I have to question particularly why you included mortafires in your list, as calling them challenging is like saying it's difficult to avoid getting hit by a time-bomb block.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 12:17

#24

Spookington

Honestly,

I couldn't give enough of a [crap] to get knee-deep into this arguement and keep it up, so I'll keep my points short and GTFO of this thread after this post.

-- Laraso: Truth. The enemies are [silly]. Unfortunately, the reason "why" isn't that opaque. This game was intended for young children and young children are pretty terrible at "tactile and careful" gameplay. Seriously, it's why every LD match (though to be honest, the usual random clockworks group is hardly any better) usually devolves into faust and pola spam. Little kids need big, over-powered weapons to kill everything in two hits because anything more complicated than that is too difficult to bother with. Is the game "too hard"? OOO's answer is "lower the standards"!

It's not a good reason, but it's the reason for now.

-- Batabii: You're coming across as a little defensive. He's right. The enemies have been nerfed too far to the left of missing a few chromosomes. I mean, when have you ever fought 5 alpha wolvers at the same time? I mean, outside of a shadow lair or a danger mission not even the still-kinda'-somewhat-difficult enemies show up enough.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 12:44

#25

Batabii

@laraso
Well if you're so godlike that the game is so easy for you and you've accomplished everything, go play something else then, this game isn't for you. The rest of us don't need the game made any more hard (and sometimes frustrating) than it already is.

@spookington
No they haven't. And maybe not five, but at least 3+ countless other non-alphas. I've been hit by alphas enough to know they're FAR from being "mindless and easy".

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 12:47

#26

Draycos

Once you realize there's more to the game than pressing M1 towards the direction of enemies, and that you're practically invincible if you stay mobile...

Well, let's just say that the only time a Wolver ever hits me is when I'm in a narrow path with spikes and it teleports behind me so I get pushed into the spikes.

I have no idea why you'd have any trouble whatsoever with Wolvers. They really are mindless and easy.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 13:15

#27

Agent-Fungoose

I remember back at launch,

I remember back at launch, back in 2011 when Spiral Knights got out of beta; those were the golden years of the game, but no one really cared about the game content. It was always about doing basil runs. Tier 3 was dead content. It was simply too difficult, and we all just cared to find good recipes at basil so that we would sell them in the AH. We sure took those days for granted; those were definitely the best days of the game. Wolvers were a big threat back then, we all ran from those alphas; parties would come to an end on those den levels. Graveyards, you would either run straight to the elevator, or face death for the party. It was just way too challenging to fight in those areas. One zombie was a good enough challenge to a knight. I remember those phantoms, how they came at us, with that slow walk as if they were a Korean gang. Oh, and those retrodes? I did find them to be very strong with those fast shooting lasers and the massive hp that they had. But now, as an endgame player who has experienced many battles, I quite do miss the old retrode models. They were super hell back during 2011; took forever to defeat and shot lasers super quickly, with no delay time on shooting the lasers like they do now. The lasers were instant quick.

Truly frightening, indeed. I would love for that difficult UI to come back into the game, as the real expansion for us endgame players. They should just add a second big arcade level after the core containing that difficult UI. That's what we really want, not more health on monsters, not more big groups of those predictable mobs. They're not really fun to fight against; these monsters are only good for novice players, but for a veteran like me, I'm just doing massive massacres to get crowns. I don't feel any excitement from fighting them. This is a big reason as to why I love fiend and undead levels. Fiend arenas are too difficult for me, so I stay out of them if I know that me and my party will not make it through to the end. So, those fiend arenas are pretty much the only content that proves to be challenging for me. It's manageable with a good party; on solo, not so much of a good idea to do. Those were also the days when bombers and gunners bloomed the most. Bombers and gunners were highly needed; nowadays, everyone's just a swordie. dps, dps, dps.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 13:21

#28

Spinex

JK felt the most nerf pain.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 13:25

#29

Remove-The-Forge

Ah, such a peaceful

Ah, such a peaceful discussion. A relaxation for those currently not moaned at for expressing raw opinion.

I think I'll stay a while before going back to my duty.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 13:48

#30

Laraso

@Batabii

It would be nice if you didn't use yourself as an example of the average endgame player. Bushido-Brownie's most recent reply hit the nail right on the head: For new players, the monsters will provide an ideal challenge for them during the period in which they are still getting a grasp on the game, but after you transition out of that learning period, you quickly realize how mind-numbingly easy the game truly is. An optional 2011-esque difficulty level would be invaluable at keeping those players interested in the game.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 19:06

#31

Martial

OH JOY ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE

OH JOY ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE THREADS...

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 19:22

#32

Draycos

Martial, posts like that don't help anyone or contribute to anything good.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 20:13

#33

Kyborg-Kiske

Meh.

OP is a f--*Stab*
Eventually, the game WILL get stale after a while if OOO doesn't update. Yes, the economy is complete crap right now and the Forge System is a pain, and the removal of the Health Share revive is rather idiotic, but I don't see this as a reason to quit.
I got sick of the energy cost for elevators, only guaranteeing three runs a day on full mist if I didn't get a concussion from a Lumber slamming a load on my head. The rising energy costs were a nightmare midway through Tier 2 Missions. I actually welcome the Spark of Life system + Emergency Revive just for that reason.
Also, the Elite Difficulty really provides more of a challenge that can't be solved by just spamming Polaris everywhere and Gran Fausting through everything.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 20:15

#34

Rezzler

@ LarasoIgnore the batabii

@ Laraso

[No personal attacks, please, per the forum rules. Thanks!]

I agree. Old FSC where zombies were faster and tracked your posituon were more of a challenge. It was overall more fun. I do agree. Now, sort of boring, yet still levels that r hard like tge ones wuth minis

Shadow lair elite might be fun rite

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 23:12

#35

Holy-Crab

I've been here long before

I've been here long before you and I'm still here long after you left. Basically, even though this game was nerfed to the ground and I was against the update that caused it, its main purpose and attractivity never resided in challenge, maybe you were lost crossing this game's path in the first place. The way I see it, when I first join in april 2011, it was more for the retro aspect of the game and how I could chill for an hour or two while still having fun. There is no place for words such as yours in a game that was designed for a casual and very young audience, speaking about skills and challenge and how you went through SL with your first try, cool but silly story, clearly there are other games designed for this kind of talk.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 23:32

#36

Tails-San

@Bushido-Brownies "difficult

@Bushido-Brownies

"difficult UI" You keep using that word, I'm not sure you know what it means.

UI = User Interface. A difficult UI is almost ALWAYS a bad thing.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 23:46

#37

Laraso

@Kyborg-Kiske, Mad-Lumber

@Kyborg-Kiske:

You don't understand the purpose of my original post. While the title might lead you to believe otherwise, this isn't a complaint thread addressing the most recent update. I'm not complaining about updates in particular, but rather I'm questioning why the game has deviated so far from its roots. The Spiral Knights I enjoyed playing back in 2011 was a completely different experience than the Spiral Knights of today.

The game was lacking in new content, and rather than expanding on the original formula of the game, OOO simply created new methods to reprocess and regurgitate the already existing original content in rather uninspiring ways. For the most part, they stuck to and continued to use that "solution", outside of a few exceptions such as the Guild Hall update which legitimately added new and much appreciated content to the game. Many things happened over the course of time, such as the nerfpocalyse, which to this day is still the change I oppose the most.

While the mist energy - and by extension the energy system as a whole - was restrictive, it offered a consistent and approachable way to regulate most activities that occurred within the game. However, they offered players a way to eliminate the most restrictive part of the energy system, which was the energy cost associated with elevators. Anyone could buy themselves an elevator pass, which was very inexpensive, and even the most frugal of people could afford one by simply drinking two less sodas for a week. The removal of the energy system and the addition of the forge, from everything that I can gather, has resulted in a grindy mess more in tune with point-and-click MMORPGS such as Runescape than the simplistic MMO action-adventure game Spiral Knights is (was) supposed to be.

Health revives were simple, balanced, intuitive, and most of all consistent and readily available in nearly any situation. I completely disagree with anyone and everyone who says that the Sparks of Life is a good idea.

Increased enemy health and damage is a lazy and poor way of increasing difficulty, which doesn't actually address the core problem of why it's so easy to begin with, which happens to be the completely retarded AI behavior. I don't consider Elite mode an acceptable way of restoring challenge to the game.

There is very little left of the original formula that brought this game to life, and it saddens me that a game I used to enjoy playing has been almost completely altered into something I don't. If they released the game today in its current state, I'd just categorize it mentally as "not my type of game" and move on. But it wasn't always like this, it used to be something that I found enjoyable. I understand that Spiral Knights isn't designed completely around my tastes, but the one thing I can't understand is why the game has ended up the way it is now.

@Mad-Lumber:

I understand fully that the game wasn't designed to be heavily challenging, but the truth is that it was at one point in time challenging, and now today in its current state, even the most rudimentary levels of challenge are missing from the game.

I don't (nor did I ever) want Spiral Knights to be some kind of masochist breakneck challenge-fest, I just want it to put me in situations where I actually have a half-decent chance of losing.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 00:04

#38

Agent-Fungoose

There is no need to attack

There is no need to attack Laraso; he's only expressing his feelings and opinion over the game.

@Tails-san
I meant AI? Enemy performance; the way the monsters fight.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 02:21

#39

Tahum

Laraso

Hello, I have some questions about these pre-nerf monsters:
1)The monsters were enough intelligent to go around the walls? Because now zombies are often blocked by their own gravestone (other monsters to).
2)The monsters had that (approximate) same difficulty level?

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 12:25

#40

Laraso

@Tahum

Monster path finding is more or less the same. The biggest difference is that the pre-nerfed monsters tracked the player, so you couldn't just avoid every single attack by taking one step to the side.

That doesn't seem like much, but the difference is like night and day. It's what turned Wolvers (probably my favorite enemy) from being a real threat, to being one of the easiest enemies in the game. Increased/decreased health and damage values have nothing to do with enemy behaviour, which is currently on par with a brain-dead retarded infant squirrel. These "normal", "advanced", and "elite" difficulties fail to provide any legitimate extra challenge, aside from making it take longer to kill them. Back in 2011, there was only the arcade, and all monsters had consistent levels of hp and damage, since difficulty levels didn't exist.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 12:59

#41

Tahum

Thanks for answers.

But at the 2th point I was talking about difficulty of monster families comparing with other families (Gremlins where hard as Constructs? Slimes where always so easy? etc.)

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 13:15

#42

Warp-Master

@Laraso

Allegedly, the real Elite difficulty wasn't ready in time for the July 30 patch, and the devs are going to elaborate on it later. Pray that they revert the AI nerfs. (Heck, I wouldn't mind having them reverted in Advanced, if the degree of tracking was reduced. Also, instant Retrode lasers.)

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 14:31

#43

Laraso

@Warp-Master, Tahum

@Warp-Master:

If that's true, I'll take back everything (well, mostly everything) I've ever said bad about this game ever, and will be back into the clockworks faster than a charged quicksilver.

@Tahum:

I can't really remember how difficult the different monster families were compared to each other, but I know that they were all challenging enough to kill you if you weren't careful.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 14:45

#44

Agent-Fungoose

What's the equipment you use,

What's the equipment you use, Laraso? Weapons, shields, gear, and trinks?

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 15:07

#45

Isenfir

Agreed

As another older player that only came back every once in awhile for updates, I can back what Laraso is saying 100%. I had been trying to figure out why challenge only existed in danger missions, and you just made me realize why, the ai is different. I guess I never saw that update, but I do remember retrodes being nerfed, hard. Before they were too strong, I agree, but now? They aren't even a threat. They're melee attacks NEVER hit, and the lasers are so slow that as long as you aren't blind, you'll never touch them. Wolvers are a basically already dead because they never hit. Gremlins Thwackers too. Same with Zombies, though they're jump can catch you off guard do too similar animations. Spookats in any tier but 3 lost almost all of their tracking, and T3 kats have lost a lot. Greavers never show up anymore, which used to be a huge threat. Mender AI is absolutely horrible, I've had menders stand next to other monsters missing half health and just sit there and do nothing. Turrets in T3 are actually easier to dodge than T2 due to the delay after shots. Fiends don't jump around as much, making them easier to hit. Mech knights can easily be kept off if you have a gun, which stuns them essentially due to their shield.

As Laraso said, unless there's enough enemies to literally stop you from moving by surrounding you, you won't die unless you're careless, unlucky, or just make a mistake. Turrets and huge swarms are the only way I ever seem to die now, due to there just being too much to take in at once (i.e. trying to dodge some 20 shots all targeted on you), or too much to avoid. Swarms and health/damage buffs are not substitutes for difficulty.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 15:11

#46

Rezzler

Did anyone else used to do

Did anyone else used to do this?

Back in old RT, on the first floor, once you passed the first set of rockets, you came to a T path with a lrft and right option. I used to make sure I was 3 or 4 blocks ahead of my teammates when going to the right so when the retrode spawned, its insta-laser would hit them. It was a real douche move. But effing hilarious!

Also, old fsc was better

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 16:40

#47

Laraso

@Bushido-Brownies

I have quite a lot, so I'll respond in list form. You're probably not going to read all of this, but I'm going to type it all out anyways as it will be mildly entertaining.

Armors -

5* HL10 Ancient Plate, (I use this occasionally with penta-hearts when I want to have fun screwing around with health values)
5* HL10 Fallen Armor (My main armor set, I love the solid resistances to shadow and fire damage, but most of all I love the universal medium attack speed increase - I also like the way it looks with my shifty eyes more than any other armor)
5* HL10 Chaos Set (Because very high damage + very high CTR + very high attack speed increase = lol)
5* HL10 Dread Skelly (Mainly because I have no other cold resistant armor, also I swap to this in lockdown if people are spamming shivermist)
5* HL10 Ironmight (The first thing I did when I started playing is go straight for platemail, which I later came to realize was actually really bad. Really the only thing I use it for is costume armor, but I do pull out the plate shield when I need pierce resistance)
5* HL10 Mad Bomber (For those rare occasions when I feel like using bombs)
5* HL10 Mercurial (Because MSI, also I have no other source of shock resistance)
5* HL10 Valkyrie (Let's me spam Gran Fausts' charge attack for fun, also it trivializes fiend levels)
5* HL10 Volcanic Plate (My go-to armor for FSC. Yeah, ASD sucks, but I'm almost completely invincible there when wearing this. Also the shield is really good)
5* HL3 Snarbolax (Mainly just got it because it looks cool, also it's proof that I've completed shadow lairs)
3* HL6 Angelic (Was in the process of heating this to eventually get Heavenly Iron Armor, which I planned to use as costume armor, and also so I would have all three variants of Valkyrie. Can't be bothered to do this anymore, especially with the forge)

Swords -

5* HL10 Sudaruska (Probably my favorite sword. Underwhelming when compared to DA or GF, but it's just so fun to use. The charge attack is also very good, rivaled only by bombs in crowd control, especially with max CTR)
5* HL10 Dread Venom Striker (Tied with the Sudaruska as my favorite sword. It's also very fun to use, and even though the DPS is kinda' low, the super fast attack rate and poison status makes it a great PvE weapon if you learn how to use it)
5* HL10 Warmaster Rocket Hammer (I don't really consider this a sword. The second attack dash alone makes this weapon invaluable, and I usually have it equipped at all times, although not always as a primary)
5* HL10 Divine Avenger (I don't really use this very much, it's not that fun to use in my opinion. I'd take the Suda over this any day.)
5* HL10 Gran Faust (It's good in PvP, also charge spamming this while wearing Valkyrie is very fun even though it's actually a pretty bad charge attack)
5* HL10 Fang of Vog (I had tokens to spare, so I got this. It's not something I generally use often, but the charge attack seems pretty powerful in lockdown)

Shields -

5* HL10 Ironmight Plate Shield
5* HL10 Volcanic Plate Shield
5* HL10 Dread Skelly Shield
3* HL10 Swiftstrike Buckler
3* HL10 Scarlet Shield

(I swap between these often, but I'm usually using the Volcanic Plate shield. I use the Scarlet Shield exclusively with Ancient Platemail when I'm screwing around)

Guns -

5* HL10 Argent Peacemaker (Really shines in FSC, outside of that it's nothing extraordinary)
5* HL10 Sentzena (It's good in areas where the Peacemaker isn't.)
5* HL10 Blitz Needle (Because Trojans)
5* HL10 Volcanic Pepperbox (It's fun to use, has knockback, and doesn't look stupid like the Blitz)
5* HL10 Nova Driver (Because charge attack damage)
5* HL10 Storm Driver (Because shock)
5* HL10 Knockback (Because knockback - also makes a fantastic sidearm as a bomber)
5* HL10 Polaris (Because knockback + stun = lol polaris)
5* HL10 Callahan (Easily my favorite gun. The projectiles are big, fast, and powerful. But mostly just fast. Really fast. Also, the charge attack's projectile is MASSIVE, and has huge range as well. All of that combined with a chance to stun with every shot makes this weapon a very solid choice for PvP, and I think this weapon is very underrated in general. Not everything has to have big DPS to be good.)
3* HL6 Shadowtech Alchemer (Was going to upgrade to 5*, can't be bothered anymore esp. with the forge)
3* HL6 Toxic Needle (Same story as with the Shadowtech Alchemer)

Bombs -

5* HL10 Big Angry Bomb (Big range + big damage + big knockback + stun = fun)
5* HL10 Dark Retribution (The JK bomb, not much else)
5* HL10 Venom Veiler (Mass poison is good in PvE when healers are present, and is also a good support bomb that boosts damage for everyone in the party)
5* HL10 Scintillating Sun Shards (It's very bad. I never use it unless I'm just screwing around)
4* HL10 Haze Burst, 3* HL10 Graviton Charge,, 3* HL10 Electron Charge, 3* HL10 Fiery Vaporizer (Planned to get all of these to 5*, can't be bothered anymore esp. with the forge)

Trinkets -

Dread Skelly Charm x2
Elite Bomb Focus Module x2
Elite Handgun Focus Module x2
Elite Quick Draw Module x2
Elite Trueshot Module x2
Elite Quickstrike Module x2
Elite Slash Module x2
Elite Sword Focus Module x2
Penta-heart x2
Radiant Crystal Pin x1
Royal Jelly Band x1

(I swap these in-and-out as necessary.)

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 19:11

#48

Kyborg-Kiske

OP gets all my hate

Just stop whining because you think your opinion is the only one that matters. Bye.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 20:26

#49

Kramy

@op

Doors right there, get out before you become an even more toxic part of the community trolling around the forums starting threads about how, "oh it was better in the past!". No one care, infact it just makes people hate you more.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 22:47

#50

Laraso

@Kramy

It's not "oh it was better", it's "why is this so different from how it started".

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