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The truth behind the odd changes: OOO hurting players and the game in their efforts against alt farming.

13 replies [Last post]
Sun, 08/11/2013 - 20:20
Hr-Dalp's picture
Hr-Dalp

I originally started a long and detailed post explaining my opinions and thoughts, but i accidentally closed the window and lost it all -.- so here's a short lame version.
Most of the odd changes are because OOO wanted to get rid of people abusing alts
With no mist and crafting requiring orbs alts can no longer be used to mass craft items
However a changing such a core mechanic of the game (energy system), one which the game was built with in mind results in a lot of things being out of place and lefts behind.
Changes to deaths and revive (Including: The need of an item rather than energy, no sharing health, loot not dropping after a certain time while dead) and loot changes (Everyone gets their own version of loot and must pick it up themselves) mean that one can no longer leave an alt dead and carry it through a level for double their profits.
However, removing the ability to share health hinders team-play and co-operation, players aren't happy sharing their sparks to revive others as well. Loot changes also mean players have to get all loot themselves, no longer allowing for someone to pick it up for the entire party, and players are now punished for being dead too long by not having any loot. And lets not forget some broken achievements.
The forging system means weapon leveling is slow and players may no longer mass level gear when say, they're invited to a higher tier level. It also paces leveling which would be done faster due to no elevator cost.
Sadly enough forging is cumbersome, unnatural, not fun, is confusing to players, and most of all does not fit withing the game. The chance that forging might not work means players need a lot of fire crystals just to get a few levels, which in turn means more grinding or spending ce on something which was free up until now. OOO said they wanted players to be able to experiment with different gear and not feel they have to focus on one set, but by making leveling so time consuming it discourages new players from getting other gear since they need their crystals to level their main gear. Forging is by far one of the more out of place and detrimental to the player additions to the game.

I might add more random points to this as I remember about them or think of new ones, feel free to discuss, but I'll leave this as a conclusion:

With these recent updates, OOO had their best intents in mind, they wanted to ensure all players were actually playing, and to bring new players as well as keep old ones. However, many changes were done in haste, or just didn't fit within the game which was built without said additions in mind, this along with changes done purely to counter alt abuse left the game with out of place mechanics which hurt both the players and the game.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS:
What better way to sneak in these changes and get people to forgive them than bundle them with the long awaited battle sprites and the removal of elevator costs.
Personal loot = No vial sharing = less teamwork and ways to help others
"You now will earn the exact same amount of loot in a party as you do solo, so party up!" made me think, we're basically going playing solo but with other people helping kill things and maybe revive us, aside form that there's not much team play.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 20:38
#1
Juances's picture
Juances

You can practice a level over and over and under lower difficulties so that you don't die and thus forget about sparks and all that crap.
Elevators are free, you can afford mistakes.

You DON'T have to revive every time you die.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 21:11
#2
Hr-Dalp's picture
Hr-Dalp
@Juances

"You can practice a level over and over and under lower difficulties so that you don't die and thus forget about sparks and all that cr"
ooookay, how does that relate to anything? thats something you COULD do, and its not a guarantee that you'll never die. and since when should i do a level over and over (keep in mind some are random) with low pay just so I can do it in higher difficulties and maayybe not die cause. Besides, deaths happen, you can't help it and you'll have to spend some sparks, big deal. The problem isn't that you need sparks, I'm not talking about that or care about ways to get past it. The only thing I mentioned about sparks themselves being an issue was "removing the ability to share health hinders team-play and co-operation, players aren't happy sharing their sparks to revive others as well" Basically, not bashing sparks or complaining abotu having to use them, but simply saying that the new system isn't as party friendly, and might hinder teamwork, if you weren't too happy about reviving random team-mates with energy before you wont be happy giving up your sparks now.
"Elevators are free, you can afford mistakes." yea, you can afford to make mistakes to a better degree now, but what's this argument for?

Did you read the post? These are arguments for other complaints, just barely related to the points I brought up.

EDIT:
"You DON'T have to revive every time you die." You do if you want to get loot, heat, and be able to continue to the next level without having to restart. Also this is a pretty hollow statement as well, yea, you don't have to revive every time you die, you DON'T have to do anything really, whats the point being made here?
EDIT 2, beating the dead horse:
Your post can work before the changes:

"You can practice a level over and over and under lower difficulties so that you don't die and thus forget about mist, energy and all that crap.
You get more mist every day, you can afford mistakes.

You DON'T have to revive every time you die."

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 22:32
#3
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
my 2 cents

However, removing the ability to share health hinders team-play and co-operation, players aren't happy sharing their sparks to revive others as well. Loot changes also mean players have to get all loot themselves, no longer allowing for someone to pick it up for the entire party, and players are now punished for being dead too long by not having any loot. And lets not forget some broken achievements.

I just want to say. Dying isn't forgiving now. You die, it means something. Not just "oh whelp, YOU, rez me, NOW!".

And the fact that dying is more significant now it encourages teamplay rather than roflstomping so others could then join...

It amazes me how people with 0 Spark of Life joins EFSC and cry when they dies... go train on Normal or on another missions cause you are 3*-4*...

Personally, the new system is awesome and encourages people to play the game more often. Mist hindered that.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 22:32
#4
Heavy-Dragon's picture
Heavy-Dragon
I'm not hurt by the

I'm not hurt by the changes.

If I gain a heat level and dont have enough crystals, I just run the depths those crystals drop on on elite until I have enough crowns to buy the crystals or get the crystals myself.

The forge UI is just complicated-looking. it isnt time consuming or complex for me.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 22:48
#5
Noogard's picture
Noogard
My five quarters and a sticky dime.

The system is great for any vets and I personally love all the changes for only the way they affect me.

I have barely used forge but as I am leveling only one 4* item and crafted two 5* items (without 800 CE each so very thankfully!) but to my perspective it doesn't seem very problematic. I understand the problem but I think the true issue is that it got implemented so very insanely suddenly. Things like this should've been done BEFORE the game left Beta because if this was the way it always was, crystals would be a item we'd have. I think that over time you will build excess crystals only after making the primary gear in order to then be able to make more gear with little [CE grinding] effort other than heating. I have more than enough crystals to start making several things I would not have bothered to get before this update because now I can... but this is from someone with like 20+ 5* items.

I completely agree with the shattering of team play. If it wasn't for voice chat with friends, I would not play with others. I do not really plan on playing too much with randoms tbqh.... which is sad. I enjoyed playing with randoms and helping some of the less skilled ones learn by letting them die, showing them better methods of fighting, then kindly and properly reviving them when possible. I can't do that now. They can buy sparks of life, get skilled friends, or quit now as far as I'm concerned. The ONLY reason to play with others is because of minerals because we all know it isn't because we enjoy the raised difficulty of not playing alone... <_<

" which in turn means more grinding or spending ce on something which was free up until now"
Okay, you seriously lost me. Are you kidding? The grind for cr to buy CE... something you can ONLY obtain thorough real life payment in order to make weapons was by far less free than what we have now. Spiral Knights is now an actual and honest F2P game. It was not before in the slightest. Now you never ever need energy to get everything in the game, minus a level 100 pet or SL items. That is so freaking awesome imo. You don't need to buy crystals and grinding them seems like no issue to me on elite. Idk you problem and so far like Forge... sorry.

Oh yeah, alts... I really don't miss them outside of easy to get variants.

Sun, 08/11/2013 - 23:02
#6
Niichi's picture
Niichi
~

It's true that I'm now unlikely to go reviving a random stranger (although sometimes I do for friends). I don't think this has all that great an impact on team play though. For me, the only reason health reviving in the past was important is because the only alternative chipped away at your energy. Even if you revived using mist, that was potentially one or more depths you would have to miss out on for that day. However, here we have SoLs that drop at what seems to be a reasonable rate (at least on Elite) and you get a free revive on each depth. Now reviving doesn't cut into the amount of depths I can play per day.

If anything, I would argue that the old system hindered team play, because the time you spent on the floor waiting for one of your team mates to come over and revive you is time you're not helping the team to succeed. Since you no longer have to rely on that then you can get back into the action pretty quickly and start helping the team again.

In regards to the forging system then yes, it's slow when you're not paying energy for it, which I assume is the point. I'm not sure what it's going to be like for a new player working up the ranks, but I recently took the opportunity to go make a venom veiler which I think took me less time than it would have done previously. Having orbs as drops and already having some crystals built up before I decided to go make this item probably helped, but I imagine that in the process of a player grinding for orbs/energy they'd pick up a lot of crystals anyway. Full T3 Elite runs help since you're likely to pick up a lot of 4 and 5 star crystals in this way.

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 05:05
#7
Thegamerguy's picture
Thegamerguy
The truth behind the needed changes: OOO revives Spiral Knights!

I still can't see how people are using up their Sparks of Life these days with one FREE revive every floor AND instanced pills. Yeah, that's right, see that pill laying on the ground? It's yours, and if someone steps on it, it won't go away. So please, get 3 pills, use them whenever you see other dropped pills, avoid enemies, and stockpile Sparks of Life. They have effectively made reviving free for any person with a brain.

Crafting Orbs have effectively made crafting prices be completely up to you. Have a weapon that's ready to craft but you're short 1 orb? That's fine, you could either buy another orb for 1/3 of the cost of crafting pre-update, or you could grind a little on the right floors and have that weapon crafted for FREE. I don't see why you're complaining about free crafting.

The forging systems balances out the free crafting with orbs of alchemy. It wouldn't be too fun if you shot your Faust up to level 10 in a day easily, but you only found one orb during that time. With leveling that takes longer, it gives you a greater time to prepare for crafting.

The only things that the removal of mist left out of balance were the storyline, elevator passes, and mist wells. Remember though, OOO altered the storyline to accommodate this, gave around 2600 energy for every month left on your elevator passes, and turned mist wells into energy wells so players who HAD put in 500+ ce got out 20% more energy. Mist had always been a hindrance to gameplay for younger members of the community that didn't get in a paycheck for that elevator pass, and now that mist is removed every player can explore at any time they please.

Instanced loot prevents a party from splitting up or having one member run off in the distance to only be killed, which enhances teamwork.

Being punished for being dead too long not only discourages alt use, but it also encourages teamwork and for players to stick together instead of dragging one person across the map.

Honestly, everything you have said is rubbish. This update brought SK back to life. Small guilds are flourishing. People are using the Clockworks. Many people returned. New recruits can freely explore the game to their heart's content instead of running into that old, shiny blue mist barrier. Crafting is free. Reviving is free. Parties are sticking together. People are having fun upgrading their Battle Sprites. The market is flourishing. AND YET you're still sitting here complaining? Maybe it's time to open up your eyes or take a hike.

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 05:09
#8
Aureate's picture
Aureate
Processing Thoughts Of You Always

I have only two gripes:

  • Leveling up my 5* items takes ages now. Previously it went at least somewhat faster; now I need to hope for Fire Crystals from every treasure box, and even then there's still a pretty high chance of failure unless I use a large amount. The number you need increases too fast.
  • Danger rooms. Which cost 3 energy, a substance that now no longer comes for free.

I am glad about the removal of energy for elevator use and the change to crafting, though. That was one of the most crippling things about advancing in Spiral Knights before; the fact that the rate you could complete the missions was highly limited unless you wanted to pay extra for it. So yeah, kudos to them for that.

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 05:14
#9
Justsomeoneelse
Lower the Nº of cristals required

My only complain is the amount of cristals that the forge requires, not the forge itself.

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 05:22
#10
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master
@Thegamerguy

I still can't see how people are using up their Sparks of Life these days with one FREE revive every floor AND instanced pills.

By not being Vanguards. And believe it or not, some people actually have trouble finding Sparks outside of mission rewards. Also, revives aren't free, they're actually more expensive than they were before (energy changes notwithstanding) because instead of having revives from the instanced pills of you and your friends, you get one free revive per depth. That's it. After that, you either have to be very friendly with your party members to get another or use one of your own, which you may not have depending on how much you're willing to spend on the Supply Depot and your luck with finding them in boxes. And Three Rings' didn't implement revives to cut down on altdragging; they actually said in their devpost over in Testing Feedback that it was to cut down on the "problem" of parties diluting their health and getting oneshotted. However, as Doctorspacebar so elquently stated (and I so shamelessly crossposted), this is utterly bogus, as most enemies deal enough damage that you're going to get one-shotted anyway and the only real effect of "diluting" health in this way is higher party DPS. Plus, as you said, pills are everywhere, so it's not like you're diluting your health that much. This issue also goes beyond simple economics; it feels bad to give your party members the shaft because you're saving your Sparks for a boss run or something.

I guess it's time for me to move up that new revive suggestion....

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 06:16
#11
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
my 2 cents

Danger rooms. Which cost 3 energy, a substance that now no longer comes for free.

Danger Rooms payout is worth the 3E, just sayin...

By not being Vanguards

Take 64 out of my 150, I still has 90 spark of life I found thanks to T3 farming and vana farming (which anyone 4* can do). At this point if you have burned all your spark of life, you are doing something wrong, you are not farming spark of life to replenish your stock (which you SHOULD if you have none before tackling EFSC) and you can even buy it from Depot at the cost of 20E per SoL if you are too lazy to find em.

Free revive per depth, you should use it then never die again from said Depth...

Leveling up my 5* items takes ages now.

Do you always 100% forge? cause I do, and I level up my 5* from 5 to 7. Of course if you only try with 20% rate and are missing crystal, you should figured out already why.

This is a proper link btw, yours broken and this is a guy farming T3/Vana on a daily basis

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 06:47
#12
Usevnsevnsixfivfor's picture
Usevnsevnsixfivfor

Pre-update

Need money? Make alts or spend money!

Post-update

Need money/crystals/sparks/orbs/mats/minerals? Do EFSC and if you die with no/low SoLs then restart the level and either suck it up or leave the game and gimme your stuff. Nobody wants beggars here anymore.

About you complaining about Forging, lets say we got the old heating system back. We could get what would've been 700CE (not 800, 700), which is seven FSC runs, to three orbs which we get 1-2 5* orbs per EFSC run. That means only two or three runs to craft a 5* item! Do you even EFSC bro? I do. With this we could get infinite Heat Amps for faster heating, too! Not to mention INFINITE ELEVATORS AND REVIVING AT A FLAT RATE OF 20 CE PER REVIVE!! This would be super unbalanced. So what balances this out? Forging. You whining n00bies didn't want mist energy so OOO gave us infinite exploring. At a cost, obviously. That is why we have fire crystals scattered in boxes. And you have no idea what else happened with heat. Treasure Vaults are WORTH going to now. Not just because of the minerals. Treasure Vaults were created for 1) loot 2) no enemies to worry about and 3) more loot. And lots of loot. Inside several of these many boxes, heat crystals and an orb hide. We all want those orbs and crystals. If you ever run out of crystals, then just FARM FOR THEM AND SHUT UP!!! If you think I haven't heated with the new update, then you are wrong. I have reached level 7 on a Fearless Rigadoon and level 3 on a PMoS. All I need to level it up is heat. No, not the crystals. I mean the heat that enemies drop. Not to mention my pet drinks some of that too but I don't care. I am quite abundent on crystals because you should have more than you need through the Missioms. YES I always use the most crystals when I craft, because I am willing to spend more for a box. NO I DO NOT BUY CRYSTALS OFF THE ATH OR SUPPLY DEPOT!! You should really get a grip. Really.

About the alt part, you shouldn't need alts even pre-update. I have yet to spend a penny on this game, with no alts, and I bought OCH and Sonic CD with CE, and reached Vanguard rank, having a full FSC loadout with an ASI VH Combuster, GFC, Vog Coat, Blitz, and GOS. And a Gremlin VH Nova Driver. You either are an alt abuser yourself, or you are in other peoples' buisness too much. Before throwing that quote back at me, if you don't want your thoughts or ideas neglected, then why do you even post it on the forums. Sure you want to share your ideas, but you expected everyone to follow. You may as well start a quitting sale now, because I'll be the first to post.

And players go to parties for easier play. We still have easy play, even on elite. And we all get each others' minerals. Yep. Minerals. That is why we go to parties now.

Yes there are two achievements that are broken. Nick stated those will be fixed in the future, so be patient, please.

"I might add more random points to this as I might remember about them or think about them"

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRoJ_ImyIBZp5pPHcCPqWp4zeMHwJ2kJ...

Mon, 08/12/2013 - 07:58
#13
Remove-The-Forge's picture
Remove-The-Forge
Sadly enough forging is

Sadly enough forging is cumbersome, unnatural, not fun, is confusing to players, and most of all does not fit withing the game. The chance that forging might not work means players need a lot of fire crystals just to get a few levels, which in turn means more grinding or spending ce on something which was free up until now. OOO said they wanted players to be able to experiment with different gear and not feel they have to focus on one set, but by making leveling so time consuming it discourages new players from getting other gear since they need their crystals to level their main gear. Forging is by far one of the more out of place and detrimental to the player additions to the game.

JOIN ME, MY DEAR FRIEND.

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