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Making the Vanaduke fight more versatile

5 replies [Last post]
Tue, 08/13/2013 - 13:26
El-Odio's picture
El-Odio

I know I'm not going to make a lot of friends with this, but if you wanted less Blitz and Shiv, wouldn't it be worth considering an alternative to the flame orbs circling Vanaduke? After all, even expirenced players prefer to not get too cuddly with him, making almost all close-range weapons useless (for most players!).
I don't mean simply removing them, but replacing them with something.
For example, instead of circling him they could travel the room. Like this.
You see his eye pop out a 0:23? Now imagine that is is not an eyeball, but one of the flame orbs, bumping around the room. Having played that game I can assure you, two of those in a room the size of the Throne room with walking speed and you'll have your challange.

What this would mean for some of the weapons?

Shivermist - Freezing Vanaduke easily removes the almost every threat from Vanaduke. Even with his balls of (on) fire in phase 3 you can keep a save distance. Detaching them would make freezing him less important, as he himself has become a less of a threat. Also, you couldn't just idle around as the orbs are continually traversing the entire room, despite him being frozen to one spot.

Bltz/Plaque Needle - Running around with a charged Blitz makes you slower - slower than the traveling orbs. Add that to the fire tiles and slag guards and you'll see that it will become a lot more difficult to get a clean shot at Vanaduke.

Swords - With the orbs not protecting him directly it would become viable to attempt close combat.

Disclaimer: I myself am a gunner, but I find the current mechanics of this fight to be little fun and rather unfair at times. Also, I can see a lot of appeal in bringing close combat and movement into it.

Tue, 08/13/2013 - 13:39
#1
Ulmyr's picture
Ulmyr
-0.5

I disagree with this concept due to a few major concerns with it.

One is that it wouldn't make the fight significantly fairer. One of the main difficulties of the fight when not using the Blitz or Shivermist (or even occasionally when using them) is the impact that the RNG plays on the fight, and how costly a small mistake can be: lava can spawn on top of you or directly in your path if you're not careful, Vanaduke and his guards can push you into a corner with no way out, or Vanaduke can decide to charge at inopportune moments as you're attempting to navigate through a small patch of lava.

The reason I believe this is important to note is that if the fireballs no longer circled around Vanaduke, it would add another random element to the fight that would be hard to predict without constant awareness, and would punish small mistakes. If this idea were implemented, I could see the Blitz + Shivermist combo being even more prevalent: not only would the fireballs no longer block Blitz Needle attacks on Vanaduke, but there would be extra incentive to finish the fight as quickly as possible so that none of the fireballs had any chance to cause issues.

Another concern is that this method could possibly lead to the Dread Venom Striker edging out over the Blitz Needle as the one centralizing weapon for the Vanaduke fight. The DVS is already extremely effective in Vanaduke's first phase and against his mask phases, and with these changes, it may lead to a new strategy arising of simply hugging Vanaduke, sidestepping the Slag Guards and fireballs when they rush past, and constantly spamming DVS.

It does seem like a decent idea and I agree that the fight would probably benefit from being changed, but I'm not sure this is the way to go about it.

Tue, 08/13/2013 - 14:18
#2
Juances's picture
Juances

Twins and snarbolax are annoying with bombs. (timing fuse time + lag = good luck if you're not Zeddy).
Twins themselves cannot be damaged by certain bombs.

Why can't vanaduke screw with swordsmen in retaliation?

Tue, 08/13/2013 - 14:31
#3
El-Odio's picture
El-Odio
I can see what you mean, but...

Detaching the orbs would lower the chances of getting pinned in a corner signifcantly. For example.
Given heating has become a lot more tedious, it would still be rare to see DVS. And I still would be careful to hug him constantly, but I really can't know how it would play out so, there's that.
Your conscern wanting to end it faster is justified but I could see measures to prevent this on higher difficulties. More orbs, higher speed, more necessity to extinguish them...

It's just that the current, circling orbs, are something I really dislike. While that is just my opinion, I find them to take too much of the room while also imposing a certain set of weapons.

@Juances: I'd see the problem with the Twins on that one but I can understand what you mean. Bombers really need some love, espacially after what they have been through by now. Regardless, I would still see this as an improvement to the fight.

Wed, 08/14/2013 - 01:05
#4
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

The biggest problem with the orbs circling Vanaduke is that putting them out is simply not worth the risk. Not just because Blitz in particular provides more damage without needing to anyways, but also because the orbs respawn with zero warning or mercy time.

The difficulty for Vana is all over the place, and is badly in need of a redesign. On one hand, you have randomly spawning tiles that can trap you and permanently, continously kill you every time you get up. Floating orbs that respawn with no warning, requiring an unreasonable amount of attention and memory on part of all players to be able to manage and keep continously put out in order to make melee combat viable. Tons of red bullet on a red background.

On the other hand, it's the second easiest major bossfight in the game if you've got shiv+blitz or even just blitzes.

Wed, 08/14/2013 - 01:29
#5
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Eyes popping out? Andross did it first.

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