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Salamander set

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Sat, 08/17/2013 - 14:13
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt

- Salamander Defensive statistics

After I have done some careful detailed research, I have found the elemental defense on the salamander line to be very incompatible with the slime damage bonus. The reason I think these defense statistics are incompatible is the fact that slimes deal piercing damage, but this armor defends from elemental damage. The bonus would give players the assumption that taking this armor with them would give them the edge in combat, yet it cannot defend against the slime damage type.

I am not sure why the developers gave that armor set that type of defensive ability, but I feel that either the elemental defense should be change to piercing or that the damage bonus should be focus on a monster that deals elemental damage such as the gremlin or construct family. I would rather the first choice to change the elemental defense to piercing defense, only because I feel the appearance of the salamander set matches the slime bonus.

However way the set changes is irrelevant to me, but keeping the defensive statistics the way it is feels very misleading to new and old players alike.

- Mineral Amplifier

Another topic I have in mind is to have an amplifier that boosts the amount of minerals that player acquires from a level. That amplifier can be x2 for two weeks or x4 for one month. They can cost the same amount the heat amplifier’s cost or less. The reason I propose this idea is because many new player who have not collected much minerals are grinding a lot of floors when their pet starts to reach high levels to get enough mineral to get their pet level up after finish heating up the pet.

I hope I can get some opinions on this matter, and hopefully opinions that agree with my proposed changes. Thank you for reading this thread and good day to you fellow players and other readers.

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 14:27
#1
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Well, the problem is that I use Salamander as a Elemental resistance equip. Without it I wouldn't have any dedicated elemental resist helmet. Could it just get a Gremlin bonus instead?

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 14:32
#2
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
I'm up for autofire's idea.

I'm up for autofire's idea.

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 14:40
#3
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Maybe..

I would not mind if it got a gremlin boost, I would welcome that change. I just do not like how it is set up right now. It confuses me personally when I think I should use that armor set to fight Oilers or Toxigels, but I noticed too late that I cannot block their damage type. Either the damage bonus or the defensive ability should be change to give me a clear function for that armor set.

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 14:41
#4
Juances's picture
Juances

"After I have done some careful detailed research"

IT'S SO OBVIOUS NO ONE COULD MISS IT AFTER STARING AT IT FOR LESS THAN 2 SECONDS.

Sorry, I had to say it.

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 21:55
#5
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
-1

Sorry, but no, Salamander armour is excellent in Oiler levels, where you're more likely to be hit by fire and fire traps than the oilers themselves. One of the more evident situations is Compound 42, a level filled with Gremlins, Fire Traps and Shadow Fire, not just Oilers.

Sat, 08/17/2013 - 22:10
#6
Draycos's picture
Draycos
Hexzyle, in the event you're

Hexzyle, in the event you're fighting Oilers, and especially in C42, the Dragon set outclasses Salamander...

In my opinion, the lizard suits should go as follows:

Dragon Scale: Jelly High
Virulisk: Beast High
Salamander: Gremlin High
Arcane: Construct High, split shock/fire resist (alternatively, change it to Shadow defense with a damage boost towards Undead/Fiend, but that would pretty much invalidate Deadshot/Valkyrie's existence)

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 10:44
#7
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Draycos

Dragon Scale doesn't provide normal defense, so you'll be hit harder by any non-Oilers. Although you'll have a high poison resistance, you won't have the bonus damage against Oilers.
It's a matter of preference. Oh, and Dragon is fairly situational, while Salamander can be used anywhere with decent effectiveness.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 11:18
#8
The-Mighty-Potato's picture
The-Mighty-Potato
.

"After I have done some careful detailed research"

How come no one has pointed out yet that if you change Volcanic Salamander to Piercing it is the same as Deadly Virulisk?

@Draycos No offence but that is a terrible idea, a specific family type HIGH on each piece? (That's what I presume because I don't see why you'd have a medium on the helmet and a low on armor, etc). However even if Dragon Scale was changed to Slime High it would be far too powerful and accurate for C42. It's too ideal and there would be no challenge. Also I think Arcane Salamander Set looks quite nice for Emerald Axis because the monster boxes contain Beast and Slime monsters. Plus those monsters have a chance of being fire themed (but they can also be poison theme, and possibly Shock/Freeze, I'm remembering this at the top of my head).

But back to the point, despite their offence bonuses sometimes being somewhat useless, I like the Volcanic Salamander because it's different to the other sets. However a Mineral Amplifier....that's a very interesting idea. I think it that that on the other hand is a great idea. +1 to that, but a -1 to the Salamander set.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 12:19
#9
Draycos's picture
Draycos

Though Dragon has no normal defense, it's one specialized piece of equipment versus another. I feel they should serve different purposes instead of having varying levels of situational effectiveness.

@Potato So you're telling me that weapon-based boosts, which have far more versatility than enemy-based boosts, shouldn't be inferior? I'm proposing these changes so these sets are ideal; you have to make multiple sets in order to be truly effective, unlike weapon-based gear.

While Dragon would be even better for C42, keep in mind that Dragon is very bad compared to other sets in nearly every other type of level.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 14:35
#10
The-Mighty-Potato's picture
The-Mighty-Potato
@Draycos

"I'm proposing these changes so these sets are ideal"

That's the thing, even Zebulon (1 of 9 Heroes) says in his description: something, something, something Experiment! You're suggesting that they should be better, yet Dragon Scale Set is already extremely accurate for C42. It doesn't need a buff. But like I said, I like the Volcanic Salamander/Arcane Salamander because they're different. Not to mention that you think that they should overall have a max(!) bonus overall, which is too OP.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 15:40
#11
Draycos's picture
Draycos

Alright, let's look at this more statistically using some rough point system I came up with on the spot that's based on my views on how effective certain stats are.

Assuming 1 low bonus= 1 point (for each relevant enemy | .5 if locked to a weapon), status resistances = 3 points each, and each relevant defense = 3 points...

5* Typical Sword/Gun/Bomb Piece: 6 + 3 + (18 + 6) = 33 points
This is assuming the set has Normal/Special defenses, one status resist, and a Medium boost to a specific weapon.

Revamped Volcanic Salamander Piece: 3 + 3 + (18 + 6) = 30 points.
This is if it has Normal/Elemental defense, Fire resist, and a High boost to one family. It has a slightly lower total score, but is counteracted by boosting all of your weapons as opposed to one type, giving you more room for variety. This can lead to boosts to interesting combinations like the ever-so-efficient Vortex + anything AoE combo.

Revamped Dragon Scale Piece: 3 + 6 + (6 + 6) = 21 points. Dragon Scale has no normal defense and is only somewhat useful defensively against Beasts, Jellies, Constructs, and Gremlins, but is largely useful against Oilers, Toxoils, Quicksilvers, and purely Pierce/Elemental damage. The High bonus to Jellies lets it have even greater of an impact on the handful of enemies it excels against.

There is more to the game than C42. A certain armor set being better than anything else in an extremely specific area lives up to the "Specialist" name. Additionally, looking at the scores of the revamped lizard suits and the weapon-based sets, they've got a very close "usefulness" rating.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 10:48
#12
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Salamander

@The-Mighty-Potato :

By the -1 to the proposed, changes to the salamander set statistics, you are saying that the salamander set is fine the way it is? You would approve that this armor set has a specific function even though it has a damage bonus towards the slime family and yet not be able to defend against that particular family’s direct attacks?

An example of an armor set that has a specific function is what you guys are already discussing about, the dragon scale armor set. It has a bonus towards the beast family and it can defend against their piercing attacks.

Another armor set that has a specific function is the Valkyrie armor set. It has a bonus towards fiends, and it can defend against the fiends family shadow damage attacks.

Another armor that has a specific function is the Deadly Virulisk set. It has a bonus towards slime, and it can defend against the slime family piercing damage attacks.

Another armor that is not a set but has a specific function is the Radiant Silvermail armor. It has a bonus towards the undead and can defend against the undead family shadow damage attacks.

All of these armors have a focus purpose where they can increase the damage output of the player to that specific family and be able to defend against that families attacks. Salamander set focus its damage output towards the slime family and yet it cannot defend against its attacks. I cannot see that the salamander set have any specific function when its most valuable defensive ability is its defense against the elemental damage because in tier 3, monster damage types become pure one type of damage. The bonus damage on the Salamander armor set is misleading when most players thing that this armor's function is meant to combat slimes, and yet it does not help the player defend against that family. These defense statistics needs to be changed and focused so that armor can have a specific function. An armor that has a slime damage bonus that will never be use to fight slime has a useless damage bonus. All useless functions needs to be change as in corrected, thrown out, replaced.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 13:24
#13
The-Mighty-Potato's picture
The-Mighty-Potato
.

...It's can be used in C42, elemental defence against gremlins + a Slime bonus? Not to forget the Normal Defence...

But Volcanic Salamander is an experimental set. It's what makes Zebulon unique and the purpose of his/her gear is to experiment with it. (I think)

Also Arcane Salamander Set looks great for Emerald Axis, I think I may have mentioned it before.

@Draycos
"There is more to the game than C42." Yes, there is.....FSC :P

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 15:08
#14
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
mighty that isn't a valid

mighty that isn't a valid argument. The set is only good in one area. It would be just as good in that one area if it provided bonus damage to gremlins instead.

Tue, 08/20/2013 - 02:12
#15
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Waffleconecake

Just because it only has the exact stats to match one level doesn't mean it's "completely useless" in every other level
There are things called "well-rounded" equipment, and the whole set doesn't always have to be worn together

Tue, 08/20/2013 - 04:08
#16
The-Mighty-Potato's picture
The-Mighty-Potato
.

Actually, it's useful for all Fire-themed Construct and Gremlin Levels. It's just that the Slime Bonus would put you off even getting it. Infact I bet that more people would go for it if it didn't even have a Slime Bonus because that's what puts people off getting it. The fact that you think that the Slime Bonus is useless would make it less popular, if that Bonus never existed then people would never consider the set useless. And I'll say it again....Volcanic Salamander is an experimental set.

Tue, 08/20/2013 - 05:57
#17
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
Well think of it this

Well think of it this way:

It's semi-useful in elemental damage levels (33%, exclusive)
It's semi-useful in slime-themed levels (16%, exclusive)
It's semi-useful in fire-themed levels (20%, non-exclusive)

33% + 16% = 50%
(100% - 50%) * (100% - 20%) = 40%
So it's semi-useful 60% of the time. Not going to calculate the times when two functions cross over because that'd take too long.

Compare this to things like class gear like Wolver, which can be 100% semi-useful if you use swords frequently, but only 53% semi-useful ((100% - 33%) * 100% - 20%)) if you don't.

In fact, if you combine Salamander with Snarbolax, you'll have armour functions that are semi-useful 93% of the time, even if you don't use swords. It's quite useful as a "jack of all trades" armor.

Tue, 08/20/2013 - 23:58
#18
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
maybe..

@Hexzyle:

Maybe you are right that it is a multi-purpose armor, but it does not change the fact that by dividing its abilities into these different sectors, the armor's battle power efficiency is decreased where if it were focus on a single family group it would prove a lot more useful. For that reason, I stand strong to my original proposal that the armor's defensive abilities or offensive damage bonus needs to be modified so that it gives players a clear function of what the armor can do and not do.

I am refering to the salamander armor for those who are confused about which armor i was pointing to.

Wed, 08/21/2013 - 03:58
#19
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Blandaxt

if it were focus on a single family group it would prove a lot more useful

But only for the duration of that level. In other levels it then becomes useless. As I said before, it's a jack of all trades. It's the type of armor you get if you are short on cash: The Fire and Elemental defense are good for FSC, and the Elemental and Slime Bonus are good for RJP. Not to mention it does this at 4 star, while most other equipment (Vog, Volcanic Plate, Volcanic Demo) only give fire resistance at 5 star.

No other single piece of armor covers both those boss strata like that.

Wed, 08/21/2013 - 06:01
#20
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Consider..

@Hexzyle:

"In other levels it then becomes useless"

Have you consider the fact that other armors that have focus function are still usable in other levels. For example, dragon scale armor has a focus damage bonus towards the beast family, and yet it can still be used in multiple levels that give off the status effect of fire and poison such as a beast/slime clockwork level.

All the other armors that are focused on a particular level are usable in other levels without having to rely on the damage bonus. The point I am trying to make is not that the salamander armor could be usable in other levels even if it was altered to be focused on a particular family, but the fact that the salamander armor does not have a particular function at all. For the salamander set to not have a particular function means that it will always be considered an armor that is broken. It is broken because it does not have a particular direction; instead it is stretch to try to cover multiple corners which it is failing at. For FSC, Armor of the fallen that is branched from Angelic Raiment covers it much more efficiently. I don’t know what the abbreviation RJP stands for so I will ignore it. Even though armor of the fallen is a 5 star set, it still surpasses the salamander set with its normal/shadow defense and fire/poison resist. Salamander set would be much more of a useful armor if it was focus on a particular family type then to be spread out like a broken jigsaw puzzle.

Wed, 08/21/2013 - 09:02
#21
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
I'm baffled that you don't know what RJP means

You could have at least googled it.
Armor of the Fallen doesn't provide any resistance or bonuses for RJP, which stands for Royal Jelly Palace, and has fire weakness all the way up until 5 star, which makes the 4 to 5 star jump very painful since players could either grind RJP which is slow, or do FSC at a considerable disadvantage. Salamander provides bonuses for both areas: it's not broken, and it DOES have a focus. It starts off as Chroma which Tier 2 players can use in RJP, and then when they upgrade it to Salamander, and then Volcanic Salamander, they can use it in Firestorm Citadel as well. It's comparable to the Wolver to Vog transition, but Salamander works for Gunslingers, Bombers and Hybrids, not just Swordsmen, and gives fire resistance earlier in the line.

Sun, 11/17/2013 - 05:12
#22
Blitzsonic's picture
Blitzsonic
Sorry if this is a topic bump

I've noticed the bonus too, it's probably a outdated sk equipment, like ancient plate/plate, back then piercing damage wasn't that common, elemental was almost everywhere and shadow defense was rare(OOO wanted to have shadow hell levels, or something like that). Also, chroma has fire and poison protection, so it's somewhat of a downgrade to loose the other resistance, maybe they could be removed from chroma(i don't know if this would mess up pvp, it's just a idea). Most "final" sets had fire resistance(probably for vana) and elemental defense(somewhat more common and OOO wanted rare shadow defense.) Currently, the bonus is still useful if this is your first set, but after you get virulisk, the bonus will get rather useless later.

So, my suggestion to this:
Salamander=gremlin damage bonus or construct damage bonus(i would suggest gremlin)
Arcane Salamander=gremlin and construct damage bonus

But i'm not sure about this since beast/slime bonus is rather rare.

Sun, 11/17/2013 - 07:34
#23
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
When you're this swag this world just bows at your knees

If armors with Medium family damage bonuses per piece could be buffed to High family damage bonus per piece, that'd be great.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 10:35
#24
Blitzsonic's picture
Blitzsonic
@Hexzyle

I've been thinking about the bonus again, it's not that useless, so keep it. A +low on every vs family buff could be a good idea.

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