Spiral Knights - Orbs of Alchemy

Orbs of Alchemy

37 replies [Last post]

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 15:53

Moonray

I am honestly starting to think this is a massive step backwards. I haven't played this game for a very long time. Like I played for a few months after release and then quit. So my friend tells me the game has been seriously re-vamped, the crappy energy costs for elevators is gone, and there's a new crafting system that doesn't use energy. At first, I was happy about all this because the stupid energy system and subsequently broken economy were the reason I quit.

But now I'm starting to think otherwise. Orbs of Alchemy, from what I can tell, are way too damn rare to make crafting an option. I've been doing elite runs, solo currently, and getting jack-all. I've gotten a single orb drop. Considering that these recipes require 3 orbs each, and the content is gated behind a gear check...This is feeling even more pay-to-win than it was before.

Look, I'm not expecting to get these things by the dozen. But honestly, considering that I'm going through runs and walking out with at minimum six fire crystals per floor, I think the orb drop rate could use a serious boost. Crafting is a core mechanic of this game, you can't just get gear off enemies like other MMOs, and the gear sold in shops is trash. You NEED to craft your gear. The biggest mistake that F2P games make is burdening the player in order to turn a profit. That's been a problem with this game from the beginning and 3Rings has gone and made it even worse.

Orb drop rates need to be improved. They are terrible, and it's going to do more harm than good. This game is on life support as is.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 16:07

Fatalitizer

How is this worse than the

How is this worse than the old system?

Before: You needed energy to craft, so you could either buy some with real money, or buy it with crowns.
Now: You need Orbs to craft, so you can buy Orbs with real money, buy them with crowns, OR grind for them.

Buying Orbs from Supply Depot costs the same amount in energy as it did with the old system. You're complaining about having an extra option.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 16:03

Soulstaker

Orb drop rates are good

Orb drop rates are good enough, you can always buy CE to get orbs. Since elevators costs has been removed, its really easy to get CE. Orbs should be uncommon or everyone is going to get from 0*-5* within 3 days or something. I usually get can 1 or 2 orbs each run if I know where to look in the arcade which is good enough.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 16:18

Juances

Orbs from depot cost the same as the old system. The lack of 100 mist is balanced by the rare drops (as rare as they are, they save you more money than mist would for 3* onwards).

I fail to see how this system is oh-so-much-worse.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 16:21

Bopp

agree with Mobott

Mobott is right. Even if you find no orbs in the Clockworks, and have to buy them all with energy, the new system is exactly as costly as the old system. As soon as you find any orbs at all, the new system is costing you less than the old system.

Sun, 08/18/2013 - 16:26

Fehzor

I wouldn't mind the drop rate for rarities to go up by a bit. With the old system, I was crafting an item a week or something like that. The new system pretty much halts my crafting.... but I recognize that I'm not the average player while simultaneously not being any better than anyone don't hurt me.

You don't really need to craft any gear though. It freshens up the game when you do, but getting to higher tiers doesn't do much. Its still the same set of levels with the same set of enemies with the same set of attacks. They're just revamped a bit.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 12:58

Kilya

Honestly, I don't want to

Honestly, I don't want to fund a pay-to-win system, even via CE. Not like I can afford enough for the fire crystals and orbs I need anyway. Just bump the rates up a little, I die far too much on Elite, even when I'm just running through for boxes. I've done so many advanced runs I've lost track.

Uh, the whole point of the game is to get better gear to advance farther. It really is. I can't do anything but redo boss missions for scant amounts of crowns now. My ash tail set has been stuck at level 8 since I came back. This is ridiculous.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 13:47

Bopp

funding the system

Honestly, I don't want to fund a pay-to-win system, even via CE.

You mean, you don't want to fund this game that you love (or at least like, or at least play)? How strange. When I really love a product, I don't mind paying for it. Further, for the game to survive, there must be some paying players, right? Those players have to get something for their money, right? Many of them get fancy costumes, that affect their "winning the game" not at all. Many others get fancy UVs, that help them and you in PvE, and that don't prevent you from being good at PvP either. All in all, I'd saying that the paying aspect of the game has pleasantly little impact on the non-paying players.

In the final evaluation, Three Rings has given you hundreds of hours of entertainment for free. And now they're giving even more generously than ever before, by not requiring you to buy CE to fuel your play.

Your proud moral stance seems to lack the requisite morality.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 13:54

Kilya

Haha you clearly do not know

Haha you clearly do not know what pay-to-win means. Pay-to-win is a system in games in which it is nigh-on impossible to access huge portions of the game without spending real life money. As a result, players who are capable of spending such cash have a huge and clear advantage over those who can't. It's scummy and gross and I thought 3 rings was a little better. Even with the old system that required energy, it didn't take too much. Now though, do they really expect me to grind jelly king for 12 hours a day just to catch up to paying customers ? Nope.

Like sure, I can pop down to tier 3. Sorta. I die, because I literally can't upgrade my equipment without funding the cash system. And that's pretty messed up.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 14:04

Demonicsothe

This game is more about skill

This game is more about skill than equipment. Of course, the right weapons and the various weapon boosts do help tremendously. It doesn't seem like you are dying because of a prolonged smackdown against enemies. Learning to play the game includes knowing enemy patterns and avoiding their attacks.

The problem with you is that you're farming boss floors. Those are good for crowns, which in the old system was used to buy energy to upgrade gear because of the ce cost involved. Now, you have to change your hunting grounds. Farm fire crystals, not crown to buy ce to then buy crystals.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 14:04

#10

Fatalitizer

@Kilya

I'm confused. You didn't have that much of a problem with the old system, but when they ADD an option without making it more expensive you complain? As stated about, it costs the exact same to craft gear as it did before.

"Pay-to-win is a system in games in which it is nigh-on impossible to access huge portions of the game without spending real life money." So Spiral Knights is not Pay-to-win because you can access all of the game without spending money. Simply having to grind is different than it being "nigh-on impossilbe" to access the higher tiers.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 14:08

#11

Bopp

that doesn't remotely describe Spiral Knights

Haha you clearly do not know what pay-to-win means. Pay-to-win is a system in games in which it is nigh-on impossible to access huge portions of the game without spending real life money.

You can access every part of Spiral Knights, except Operation Crimson Hammer, without spending any real money. You can even access OCH without spending real money, if you play through Steam and someone trades OCH to you. It takes a lot of grinding, but thousands of players are doing it every day. So, according to your definition of "pay-to-win", this game is not pay-to-win.

Even with the old system that required energy, it didn't take too much. Now though, do they really expect me to grind jelly king for 12 hours a day just to catch up to paying customers ?

You don't seem to understand that the new system is at least as generous as the old system. And that's not a value judgment or an opinion; it is a mathematical fact, based on the conversion rate between orbs and energy. See posts #1, #3, and #4 above.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 14:16

#12

Terra-Necro

@Kilya

Lol, you picked the wrong person to criticize. Bopp is a legend on the forums for being very helpful with game, in data and playstyles. He probably could be a GM if the positions were offered.

But yeah. You, Kilya, do not know what Pay-to-Win means. As Bopp and Mobott stated above, nearly everything ingame can be accessed through playing (you can even get Crimson hammer as a gift from another steam player if you give them something of equal value ingame). Just because you don't want to put the effort in to work for what you want does not mean the game is what you say it is. If you don't even care to work for that, how can you even hold a job in real life? Huh!?

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 14:16

#13

Kilya

It is not the conversion rate

It is not the conversion rate that is the problem ! I've run through floors 15-23 more times than I could count, just TRYING to get the fire crystals and orbs I need for my equipment. I'm not getting ANYTHING. Even on Elite, I maybe see more sparks of life but not anything else ! And many of my friends are having similar problems ! The only way I can get enough shining fire crystals is buying energy. It would be GENEROUS if myself and many others could FIND ANYTHING. But we're not. Even with the lower tier crafting items I have like. 4. And I can run through all of tier 1 in a couple of minutes. The drop rate itself makes the system flawed. Does anyone else see this ? Ugh whatever I'll just. Grind the stratums that drop the fires I need for a few weeks, and pray for orbs.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 14:19

#14

Kilya

@Terra-Necro

Lol it's funny because I held a job for two years before a transphobic coworker complained about me being trans*. Fun times. And I've played this game since beta, I dunno what you're on about. Video games are about the only thing I can do any more, what with the mental illnesses and executive functioning difficulties. But sure, attack me personally.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 14:32

#15

Terra-Necro

The game drop rate for orbs

The game drop rate for orbs and crystals are RANDOM. It is based on luck. You could put in thousands of dollars into the game and your luck would not change. Like you said, you will just have to grind away and hope you get something out of it.

Honestly, I don't know why some of this game's players have become so butthurt now. I love the new system, solely because it brought many players together. I now do more clockworks runs with friends, mostly to farm for orbs and crystals, but end up having an even greater time catching up with them on what they have been doing, and encountering monsters and fighting worthwhile battles that I could never experience from solely FSC mission farming. They game was meant for mass-multiplayer online. Play the game with friends and for FUN. That should improve your attitude on it.

Edit: I am sorry that I offended you, Kilya. I hold a job as well, but I don't see how being trans is a mental illness. Honestly, I deal with a lot of racism in my life, as well as "height disabilities" and other such. Hell, I am allergic to peanuts and have to watch nearly everything I eat. Being trans should not stop you from doing what you enjoy doing. Just ignore the haters and go forward.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 14:42

#16

Kilya

being trans* isn't a mental

being trans* isn't a mental illness, but heck I can't ignore the haters when they're everywhere, telling me I deserve to die, denying me jobs and healthcare. it's pretty unavoidable. but I also have anxiety and a few other things.

And like, if you can directly buy the supplies, it is pretty unbalanced. Players with enough cash can just jump to tier five, no problem. I just. Whatever, I give up. The forge system at least needs rebalanced, I should not have to spend 72 crystals to level from 8 to 9 oh my god that's so flippin many.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 16:31

#17

Skyguarder

There is no "Tier 5".

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 19:29

#18

Kilya

Okay since I posted here, I

Okay since I posted here, I have run through the clockworks on multiple characters, all on elite, mostly repetitively from floors 9-17 and I have not seen any orbs at all. Are you sure it's random ??

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 20:27

#19

Broxaim

my 2 cents

i mostly run on elite.
once in a blue moon i get 2 orbs on 1 floor (with about 10-12 boxes)
and sometimes i run multiple treasure vaults and get no orbs
and that's what makes it random

I think the most 'consistent' way of getting orbs is to farm crowns and buy them for the supply depot

or an even better option, is to change your point of view, so you aren't angry and frustrated all the time
by seeing the rarities as bonus drops rather than deserved awards.
each time i see a spark of life, wow 20 CE for doing nothing more than I usually do
each time i see a radiant fire crystal, cool i just picked up a 1000 crown coin (approx 14 CE )
and each time i see an eternal orb, must be my lucky day because 3 rings just gave me 266CE

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 20:32

#20

Kilya

I'm frustrated that I can't

I'm frustrated that I can't play the game properly, not that I expect something that isn't owed to me. I'm not that big headed. I just. I really want to enjoy the game but it's hard when I can't improve my armour or weapons at all.
Rarities, esp the crafting concerned ones, are now a cornerstone of the game. I just wish everyone could enjoy it like it was meant to be enjoyed.

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 20:47

#21

Broxaim

so in those several elite

so in those several elite runs you did, how many crowns did you earn?
and have you converted those to energy and purchased the rarities from the supply depot?

crystals i usually farm, but the orbs i buy if i'm out.
i don't really want to depend on very low chances to earn orbs

Mon, 08/19/2013 - 22:44

#22

Aplauses

Another ungrateful person.

/no offence.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 11:00

#23

Red-Right-Hand

Gotta agree with Moonray.

Gotta agree with Moonray. Orbs don't drop enough. While the drop is trying to fill the space of the lost mist tank, Energy price have soared making buying alchemy orbs for Kozma a difficult option. There was once i time that CE prices were at 5k. At the time, it was sorta cheap, but now since energy prices are 8k, it is getting very difficult to buy energy. Imagine, during then, 800 ce for 5* item is 40k cr. Now is 56k and people aren't supposed to have access to places like FSC. The mist tank was a free 100 energy that you were free to spend as you pleased, now that is gone, crafting is difficult to pick up. I think the energy prices need re balancing and as do orb drop rates.

Mist tank>Drop rate
8k crowns>100 energy

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 12:14

#24

Thunder-The-Bright

FSC is accessible to 4* knights, you have to go to the arcade. besides, it's only the sale that scrumbled up the prices. before it was an average of 6.5k.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 13:38

#25

Jimbo-Jambo

The fact that it is possible

The fact that it is possible to grind to victory does not disqualify a game from being "pay-to-win". Anyone who drops $20 on the game gains a limited but significant advantage over players that do not; hence, they have payed to win. Although yes it's still significantly better than games which disguise free demos as being "free-to-play", don't behave as if premium cash (crystal energy, in this case) is totally cosmetic in SK. You can basically buy anything with enough CE. I believe another word for this is "freemium".

That being said, while I would not at all be opposed to a small increase in rarity drop rate (especially for fire crystals, damn), I have not had much trouble finding alchemy orbs specifically. Despite me deciding to craft three or four 5* items within the space of a few weeks since I started playing again, I have yet to actually run out of orbs. While I sympathize with the OP, you might just be unlucky.

One change I would highly recommend is expand the level range at which orbs (and crystals) drop. Rather that limiting them to one stratum, sprinkle some into the bordering strata so people aren't forced to do very specific runs (likely without even knowing) just to get their clearances.

@Terra-Necro
I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong, but whatever Bopp's accomplishments are they have absolutely no significance to his argument. Nobody is immune to criticism. Also, to your point that money does not change your luck: you are correct, it doesn't change your luck, but it does allow you to bypass luck altogether and buy rarities directly.

@Broxaim
Fire crystals in the supply depot are overpriced. They're rare, but they're not worth that much. Furthermore because they are totally necessary to craft things now, whereas they did not even exist a few months ago, it is rather difficult to be able to see them as any sort of "extra bonus".

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 15:11

#26

Thunder-The-Bright

jimbo, according to your logic, any game in which you can pay real monet for something is P2W.
P2W (imo) is getting equips that can overcome any skill by paying. in that case, you are actually paying to win.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 17:49

#27

Shidara

Pay-to-Skip. You're

Pay-to-Skip. You're welcome.

As far as Orbs are concerned, any 4* or lower Orb is a bit of a pain to grind for considering they only drop in one stratum each whereas Eternal (5*) Orbs can be found across the entirety of Tier 3 to my knowledge. I have a bunch of Eternal Orbs as a result, but very few of anything else. 'Tis a bit of a pain, but I can manage.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 22:11

#28

Broxaim

well even if you don't

well even if you don't consider the fire crystals a bonus, AND you consider them over priced, ie not actually worth that 14CE. it's the lesser of all 3 'bonuses' i've listed.
the spark of life is still 20 CE and the orbs are still lots of CE

i understand that the forge system is a NEW restriction that didn't exist before, but it's clearly a lot better than the mist restriction from the previous system.

Pay to win is ONLY when people who pay have access to content that grants power when a free to play player does not, and there is no way to EARN cash currency.
and I want to define EARN, which is if someone puts in effort they can get an equivalent amount of cash currency in return.

Many games have lotto, or daily tasks or tournaments you can do that gets you cash currency, but that's not the earning i mean.

and as for SK, with the exception of OCH, there is nothing in this game that grants power to a paying player that a free to play player cannot earn.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 02:43

#29

Thunder-The-Bright

@shid: that's better.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:30

#30

Jimbo-Jambo

@Thunder (your first

@Thunder (your first comment)
Hardly. Although the freemium model has become popular lately, there are still a number of games whose premium benefits offer little more than cosmetics or small conveniences. Fallen Earth, for example, sells cosmetic slots, cosmetic gear, and pets (which don't really do anything); they also sell vehicles which are slightly more fuel efficient and perks including reduced crafting time, an all-in-one crafting kit which saves a few inventory spaces, and an aura which gives a few small stat boosts to yourself and those around you -- all of which are nice, but not the least bit necessary to progress. Team Fortress 2 sells weapons and cosmetic hats, all of which can be found or traded for in-game and none of which really give buyers a significant edge over free players. And while I admit I have not played it, I understand Maple Story sells cosmetic items.

I'll admit that there's plenty of gray area, but the difference between those games and Spiral Knights is that the stuff that is required to progress in SK, gear, can just be bought straight away with money (not counting the small amount of time required to heat). Though players are not required to do so, those that do are at a significant time advantage over players that do not. Not pay-to-play, therefore, but pay-to-win.

I'm not trying to rag on Spiral Knights, I'm just trying to put the situation into perspective. Tier 1 was a lot of fun, but as the game really starts to slow down going into Tier 3, pressure to drop money on the game starts to come from desire to skip ahead and avoid cumulative days of grinding instead of things people actually want. ...Maybe "pay-to-skip" is accurate.

All that said, I do think the new crafting system is an improvement, or at least a step in the right direction, (and combined with events like Black Kat, players can run something other than Vanaduke while still earning points towards progression through orb drops) and I genuinely hope Three Rings doesn't lose revenue from it.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 13:57

#31

Modico

missions

orbs can be a reward in missions so it's easier to craft your gear.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 14:12

#32

Kalaina-Elderfall

Other than in Lockdown, which

Other than in Lockdown, which is honestly so terrible that it should never be taken seriously, there is very little reason why any given player should compare their gear with any other player. There's no SK "best gear" leaderboard, and the game provides no direct incentive to be better than other players. So even if you do go so far as to label SK as "pay-to-win", why would anyone care?

Grinding up gear from scratch takes a lot longer now due to the fact that you need an ungodly number of fire crystals. But it's not an insurmountably long time, and once you spend the time to get all of those crystals you'll almost certainly have picked up enough orbs to craft what you need. So crafting is now either free yet somewhat time consuming, or really expensive if you're crazy enough to buy fire crystals from the Supply Depot.

Either way, there's no reason that players won't be able to craft a full set of 5* gear after a month or so of dedicated play. If anything, the game has gotten less pay-to-win because it's now a lot more expensive to outright buy top-tier gear than it used to be.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 15:16

#33

Shidara

This system exists for people

This system exists for people that value their time higher than their money, and is targeted at people with a disposable amount of income as opposed to a disposable amount of time. Not everyone likes playing catch-up when their daily lives are occupied by school, work or general busy-busy. To everybody else it is merely an option should you feel the desire but you are by no means "pressured" into paying up as there's nothing in-game that prompts you to buy energy with real money. When you're faced with a grind-wall it all comes down to what I first mentioned in this post - do you value your time more than your money, or do you push on without paying? If you end up dropping a tenner on the game then we are to assume that you valued the time saved more than you did those ten dollars.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 15:58

#34

Xavrah

as some of the above posts

as some of the above posts pointed out, the inherent costs in energy-to-orb crafting are relatively the same. However, in removing the energy costs to use the elevators, that also improves the frequency at which a player can play the game to farm the orbs. Additionally, since each level provides at least 1 free revive this helps the player-base that chooses to rely and solo play as they have at least one more chance to clear a level before it would cost them energy to revive.

So the lucrative cost has essentially remained the same, but the opportunity cost has improved, imo, in favor of players. Esp since crafting orbs can also be gotten from rank missions.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 16:02

#35

Azox

Pay to Win

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

Pay to Play refers to having to pay money to even play content. What some are referring to as Pay to Win is in fact Pay to Play. (like operation crimson hammer)

Pay to Win refers to when paying money will give you a distinct advantage. For example, almost everything in the game can be bought with crowns or energy, which you can actually pay for at a very high rate. (roughly 400 ce/$)

A person can pay $35 and get end game gear extremely quickly.

Or they can play for ~170 hours.

I expect the true rise in cost of much of the gear to be due to Mist Energy being removed.

ME was extremely useful in lowering crafting costs. Now that it is gone, 2* prices have shot through the roof and higher star equipment have gone up several tens of thousands of crowns in price in the marketplace.

While the update is nice and frees up the mind a little with free exploring, the game is still very much Pay to Win and the time it takes to craft things has only increased.

I hate the new heat/revive/drop systems though. There's basically no excuse for them and they are strictly worse as far as I can tell.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 16:16

#36

Kalaina-Elderfall

Whether or not it's pay to

Whether or not it's pay to win hinges on what you define as winning.

If you think the game's over once you've gotten a set of heat level 10 5* gear, then yes it's pay to win.

If you define winning as going through all the content the game has to offer, then yes it's pay to win provided you buy enough Sparks of Life.

If you define winning as being able to beat everything the game has to offer without using Sparks of Life, then not so much.

If you define winning as having gear that everyone else is jealous of, then yes it's pay to win.

If you define winning as developing your skills to the point where you have a complete understanding of everything the game has to offer and good strategies for handling basically any situation and loadout, then not really.

If you define winning by how many people want to have your Lockdown babies, then yes it's a fair bit like pay to win but not entirely.

But Spiral Knights doesn't have a win condition or a leaderboard, so any definition of winning someone might have is just a personal goal and not reinforced by the game.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 16:25

#37

Azox

Pay to Win

Right, but you can probably assume most people who play and have not gotten to the core see "winning" as getting to the core.

Or getting full 5* gear because that's what they see themselves making the most tangible progress in.

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