Regarding the recent update - 4* and 5* binding (Dev response)
Sun, 05/22/2011 - 09:20
#202
Quote from Nick on Friday
Quote from Nick on Friday night:
"It's pretty hard to spend every waking hour thinking about and building a game and still manage to read every post (I still do, save for guild recruitment, etc.)"
So, I'm sure he's read all the feedback in this thread (that he has created himself)... So why no response to the 200+ posts directed at him?
Sun, 05/22/2011 - 09:29
#203
@ Proteus
Because it's the weekend and he's not in the office? Plus a lot of those 200 posts are angry rants by people saying the same thing, namely "we don't like the CE price hike and the auto-binding, change them back!".
If Three Rings are going to make any changes in response to the feedback it'll only happen after the devs have had time to sit down together, discuss the player response and decide on the best way to restore community morale while staying true to their vision for the game. Give them some time to work things out.
Sun, 05/22/2011 - 09:43
#204
He's responded to numerous
He's responded to numerous other posts over the weekend... Just look at his posts in the "What's in development" thread.
Sun, 05/22/2011 - 10:30
#205
after the business trip
On Thursday, just after the Update, I had to go on a business trip during which I had no access to web ore SK. My not logging on SK since Thursday morning was entirely due to my business trip, not a boycott or something :-D
Even though I'm not insane enough to read through ALL of those posts about last week update, I'd like to shaere my opinion eventually.
At first I didn't like the update much but several days without access to this forum and SK allowed me to rethink some issues once more and without whole this emotional forum outrage and HWFO out there:
1. The 4* and 5* items trade issue.
I'm not a merchant type so It's not such a gargantuan problem to me. All items crafted for me by Pau... er... guild mates were 3* items. And I think it's just enough to help out newcomers without spoiling entire game to them. I'm still able to provide new guild member with cheap Horned Owlite Shield for a good start (at least if this was the only part of update - see below).
I understand that Gear in SK is more like skills/spells in typical D&D ripoff (like WoW) and trading items would be like trading skills/spells. If one player plays hard for a long time and spend his expirience points to buy end-game skills and spells I don't think selling these skills/spells to another player is a good idea. I'm not saying that ability to trade 5* item spoils this game and is the most horrible thing I can imagine because it's a shortcut for a rich rookies. I'm just saying that not being able to trade 5* item is not an issue for me at all.
2. Alchemy cost increased.
That's the real problem for me. I'm casual player and with job/family/friends/hobbies and such in the way I can't play every day. Since now I was able to craft 3* items with ME only during my off-game days. I'm not a big trader so usually these were items that I was able to trade to new guild member or a friend for no more then a mere 1400 crowns (+ rarest material used). Now it will be no less then 6500 crowns unless I'm going to run a charity. I may not craft for profit but I don't craft as a charity service either.
I don't mind spending my CE for exploring because generally I don't mind spending my hard earned money on pleasures (I'm buying CE with real money only. I even purchase crowns with CE in game when I'm low on crowns and Basil has for sale a recipe I desperately need). But I'm not so inclined to spend CE on alchemy.
I really would like to see alchemy cost decreased
Sun, 05/22/2011 - 14:23
#206
Crafting cost increase AND binding crafted 4/5*
Dramatically increasing the cost of crafting because it was felt that crafting needed to be encouraged is self-defeating and therefore looks to me like a blatant attempt to milk the players.
If there was a problem with end-game materials being too easy to obtain by trading, the binding of 4* and 5* items upon crafting alone should have helped to alleviate that issue.
That's fine, it's your game, but as a previously-paying player I hope the increased crafting cost change is reconsidered, and soon!
Sun, 05/22/2011 - 22:46
#207
@
@ Proteus
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/8737?page=4#comment-49519
So True.
Sun, 05/22/2011 - 23:12
#208
@Proteus:
It's not realistic
@Proteus:
It's not realistic to think he'll just respond right away and/or to everyone that gives feedback, he isn't the community manager, and even a community manager isn't expected to be -that- active. He can respond when he gets a chance to, and he has something useful to say. This company works not any different from others, though in this case I'm not implying that's a bad thing.
Who knows what kind of work he might have to attend to that keeps him from making any announcements, plus there are other factors that could affect how often he makes responses, and what kind of responses he makes, though I won't get into those.
It still took a day or two to respond to the overwhelming negative feedback from the most recent ''major'' update, and even then that's because a response could have been seen as ''urgently needed'', in hopes of trying to die down some of the out of control behavior the players were displaying. Negative feedback wasn't just kept to the thread it was supposed to be in, it was in multiple threads, over and over, and all the same things being said. Something had to stop the madness.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 00:34
#209
Okay so your temporary gm
Okay so your temporary gm transfer of items didn't really do much for me. I am sitting on a venom striker at level 10 heat, which the person I was crafting it into a 5* for no longer wants considering they quit the game in light of the recent changes.
GMs don't unbind the gear, they just transfer it and are unwilling to oversee any transfer of crowns or CE. So basically I have to eat the cost of having crafted a sword under a system that was completely legit before the patch because of YOUR companies oversight in design. I had this game on lock long before I ever spent money on it, and when I did pay money it was because I liked the game and the direction it was taking. After this experience of having to repeatedly page gms who closed my tickets each time even when I asked to speak directly to a representative, I was forced to waste another hour just to get a series of completely reasonable questions answered.
Considering your post about the whole process was quite convoluted, I don't think 60 seconds of Q&A with a rep was too much to ask. The whole experience really drove the message home to me that my time had no value whatsoever to your company. To be clear, you won't see another red cent from me, and I get the feeling from the backlash you are experiencing that a big portion of the existing player base feels the same way.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 00:50
#210
@ Proteus
That's him responding (on his own time, mind you) to things that don't really need a discussion with the rest of the dev team. Resolving the issues raised by the recent patch will need input from various other members of the dev team, which is something that'll probably happen in business hours during the week.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 12:31
#211
@ loki and majic
I appreciate your guesses as to why Nick and the devs haven't responded. And I hope you are right, that the dev team is feverishly discussing and working to right the wrongs to their fanbase and customers. But instead of speculating what they are doing, I'd just like to hear something from Nick himself.
I think we should try to keep all patch-related feedback here until Nick or devs can respond.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 13:10
#212
A fun game every one can play!
As i was reading the comments and post i've come to notice for about every 100~200 player complains Nick replies once. And by reply i mean obliviously walks through the a landmine field to tell us that its going to cost more Ce to unbind. Nick has an awsome superpower to see past all negitive comments, if you want to do the Nick simulation of what it's like when he's reading this follow these steps
Step 1. Shut your eyes as tight as you can
Step 2. Shout "LALALALALALALA" and scroll down until you reach the new comment box.
(obvously takes some time since his responses come in the span of days to hours)
All this preaching about "Rareity" and "Unique player experince" are all I'm hearing.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 13:24
#213
I don't get it. Why are
I don't get it. Why are people being so selfish? 3 rings have all the right to do whatever they want for whatever reason. After the patch I have only seen more players entering the game.
You know I hate being the bad guy, but the guy who wrote the blog, good riddance
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 14:19
#214
@jaouad
The blogger you are deriding actually received praise from OOO CEO himself for one of his posts:
http://www.spontaneousderivation.com/2011/04/10/spiral-knights-gate-maps...
Daniel James said:
"This is great stuff, thanks. I learnt something new, and I'm the CEO of Three Rings..."
For such a fan (ajericho) to be so turned off by the patch, maybe Daniel James should make a statement regarding how negatively this patch was received.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 14:55
#215
Hilarity
@Majic13 and @Loki
These are excuses. Yes, the developers need time to meet and discuss steps they might take in working to fix this patch and the disconnection it has made between player base and Dev team. They can't just come on and start making promises that haven't been discussed. But that's not what we're really asking for in the short term.
You say Nick has been posting in other forums because they "involve things that don't require dev discussion". So what's stopping him from assuring us that there will ever be a developer discussion about these topics? If the player base heard that there were ANY plans in the works to address these unspoken issues, it would make everyone much happier.
The reason that isn't happening is because there ARE no plans to address these issues. They are here to stay, because money is more important than we are. They're ignoring it an hoping it will go away.
I'm so sick of hearing about how the people upset with this patch are all just angrily ranting about nothing constructive, and for unfair reasons. PLENTY of people have explained, in logical and prismatic ways, exactly why they are upset, exactly what they find upsetting, and exactly how the devs might have accomplished what they claim to have wanted without causing all of these problems. You can sugar coat this all you'd like to make Three Rings the victims and we the tyrants, but the fact remains: People. Were. Scammed.
@Jaouad
Your ignorance on this entire subject is baffling. And probably conscious, since you have to know there are less players since the patch.
People have, on good faith, given Three Rings their REAL MONEY because they liked the game and were willing to support it. Three Rings turned around and made that money HALF as valuable, PURELY for the sake of making more money. Now these people are upset that they purchased something that was made half as valuable, and you're calling THEM selfish.
Case in point: The only way Three Rings is going to do anything about this is if we show them that they'll actually be making less money by changing this game to belittle its players. I was an avid player - had put $40 into this game - and fully expected to give them more. Since the patch, I've barely logged on, haven't used a drop of Crystal Energy, and don't intend to ever again unless they switch gears back to the proper direction.
If you're a paying player who wants Three Rings to face these issues, you should be doing the same.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 15:18
#216
@Proteus/Eshajori
@Eshajori I do hope you are wrong, and that the devs do care and are still planning to address these issues. But from their silence, it's looking more and more like you are right.
@ Proteus
Here's the post from the thread I started. I agree, let's keep this thread going in hopes of getting a response from Nick and the devs.
I asked Nick and Eurydice in previous post whether the changes in the patch were fair to the players. Most of the feedback suggest that most players were negatively affected by the patch. Since we haven't received a response from the devs regarding how to address these concerns, I've decided to be constructive and offer fair solutions to those who were negatively impacted by this recent update.
CONCERN #1:
If you (as a player) bought 600CE with real money to level up three 4* items to 5* (200CE each over 3 days in combo with ME), then all of the sudden without warning the CE rates of crafting 5* got raised from 300CE to 800CE... now you can't even craft just one of the 5* items.
PROPOSED SOLUTIONS:
OPTION 1:
Reimburse players based on the amount of CE they had before the update and relative to the amount of the arbitrary CE cost increase. Since the CE crafting cost increase was 267% (from 300CE to 800CE for 5*), if the player had 600CE before the update, that player should be reimbursed 1002CE (600*2.67=1602)
OPTION 2:
Revert CE crafting costs to Pre-update
CONCERN #2:
If you (as a player) bought a 5* recipe for 45,000 crowns, learned it, and was planning to make a 5* item. But now the recipe only costs 25,000 and the item now costs 800CE to make instead of 300CE...
PROPOSED SOLUTIONS:
OPTION 1:
Reimburse the player based on recipe price changes, and unbind the recipe to allow the player to sell that recipe since players can no longer play as a crafter for others.
OPTION 2:
Reverse the 4*/5* item crafting bind limitation and reimburse the players the difference of the recipe price changes. Recipes are still bound/learned in this scenario, since the player can now play as a crafter again.
OPTION 3:
Revert recipe costs back to the original prices, and revert the 4*/5* item crafting bind limitation.
CONCERN #3: If you (as a player) bought numerous 4*/5* recipes to play as a crafter, and to help family/friends and guildies craft items. But now all those recipes costs are way less, crafting costs are increased, and you can no longer interact with family/friends/guildies by helping to craft.
PROPOSED SOLUTIONS:
OPTION 1:
Reverse the 4*/5* item crafting bind limitation and reimburse the players the difference of the recipe price changes. Recipes are still bound/learned.
OPTION 2:
Revert recipe costs back to the original prices, and revert the 4*/5* item crafting bind limitation.
I think these are fair solutions to to "make things right" for those negatively affected by the patch. If the devs and other players have better solutions, please feel free to post them here.
Thanks.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 15:34
#217
Almost a week later
I have become somewhat reconciled to the changes (yeah, the CE alchemy increase is still aggravating, but not unbearable) and at least slightly understand 3Rs side of the update, mainly that the game was essentially too short, and this was a more practical way for them to extend average gameplay, start to endgame, then releasing new content, which takes far more time and effort on their part than tweaking some numbers for alchemy. Good, bad, or indifferent as your opinions on that idea is, it's what makes sense to me.
A heads up would have been greatly appreciated, and probably saved a lot of pain on the player-base, but at this point I wouldn't expect them to do more than they already have. Maybe actually give us said heads-up in the future?
For those not logging in, some notes:
-The player base has not shrunk as noticeably as the comments here would make one think it has. There are still regularly 10-14 full servers for English speakers, and the gates have a decent number of people running around in them. I have not paid that much attention in the past, so could be wrong, but this is just my general impression.
-CE has gone down in price, dropping to 4600 cr (maybe lower, I'm not paying that much attention) this weekend, which I am still rather surprised at. Heck, I was buying energy last week with every crown I had thinking it'd spike again this weekend.
What does this mean? I would be surprised if the hard numbers the dev team is getting supports making too many modifications to the patch. I could be wrong of course, but that's what I'm seeing.
I am still waiting to see what happens next. I see little reason to spend money on the game again, but I will look to bring more friends along because the game is still fun, if grindy. More content might change my inclination, but that does not sound like it will be coming for a few more months (a tier 1 boss and PvP are lovely, but I doubt I will find too much interest in them) For now, I will continue my quest to learn every recipe in the game, if for no other reason than stomping about in the dungeons hasn't gotten too boring yet.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 15:40
#218
hunter x hunter
is there a pvp arena in the game
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 15:48
#219
@EshajoriI've said it many
@Eshajori
I've said it many times but this game cannot live off of just "support" money so think again and stop being selfish. This game is not a charity fgs. I before didn't even think about spending because I had everything on reach. After the patch I was forced to pay, and believe me there will be enough new players that will end up pay earlier than before.
Again stop being selfish and think about three rings for a sec. This is a friggin video game and you guys are whining like babies because of double prices and costs, bindings (for imo good reasons).
The guy in the blog, I really don't get why he's acting like a little baby about this. Why can't we all just be positive and think, you know what? Three rings adjusted this so they could maybe earn more money and keep the weps unique, AND WE SUPPORT IT AS WE HOPE THIS WILL RESULT IN MORE EXPANSIONS.
I really think you guys are making a bigger deal out of this then it should be. Lifespan grows, 3 rings gets more money by keeping players longer interested as things have become less easy to get and more expensive.
It's not that things have become too expensive, they were too cheap
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 16:18
#220
@ jaouad
There's really no need to be rude and calling people babies.
Yes, businesses need to make money but should do so ethically and not be ripping off the customers.
What if I sold you an apple for $1... You agree to the price, I take your money, then instead of giving you the apple, I ask for 2 more dollars since I just arbitrarily raised the price to $3. Jaouad, tell me honestly you would feel good about that.
I tell you that you are a crying baby. It's just an apple, and I need to make money since I am a business.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 16:48
#221
@Proteus
lol, love your analogy!
Except you wouldn't tell him any of that. You'd say nothing at all about the price increase. Instead, you tell him that the $3 apple is now bound to him... that he can unbind it, but it'll cost him $10.
He would lodge a complaint to the public. The majority of the public will take his side of the argument. You would not respond to him or the public. A few in the minority would call him a whining baby, that it's just an apple, and Proteus is a business that needs to make money.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 17:05
#222
@Proteus,
I really don't get
@Proteus,
I really don't get the analogy as we're comparing a game where everything can be earned for free to a real life situation, but to give you an answer.
I would end up not buying the apple while in the game I ended up having to work harder for the said items. This forced me to pour some cash in and I was happy that the cash I was pouring didn't feel useless this time.
Before i'd be like, should I spend or no? No I shouldn't because everything is so easy to get anyway.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 17:39
#223
@JaouadLet me expand his
@Jaouad
Let me expand his analogy. You want an apple. It is the apple you always dreamed of and you want it. I will sell you this special apple for a hundred bucks, or, you can take this apple seed and plant your own tree. I will give you a daily allotment of sunlight and water for your tree to grow. As your tree grows it requires more light and water; what you don't get daily you may earn by doing jobs for me to pay for it.
Your tree is now about to bear fruit and needs more light and water than ever. I suddenly -without warning- quadruple the price of light and water, as well decreasing the amount of pay you get from the jobs you used to do.
I'm sorry I know you really want an apple but I'm just a businessman.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 17:50
#224
@ Aeolianmode
That.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 17:55
#225
Real life anology's don't
Real life anology's don't work man, they will never work as real life earning money will always be a hastle while in this game it's simply a game. People don't like hastle in real life while in games they like a challenge. See where i'm getting at?
I play games for a challenge and this new update has made things more challenging + raised the reason for me to pay and at the same time support.
Don't think too much about it. There's no need for a rollback as they will probably earn more money now. Let's support three rings for they DO earn the money.
I see where you guys are coming from but it didn't affect me in any way. I think the difference is that i'm trying to see this from a positive point of view. Not only that, but I like the reasonings for the change. It shows what they are trying to aim for and I like them wanting weps to be more unique.
Before this patch I opened threads where I thought it wasnt fair for rich people to get their equips so easy by just pouring say 50 dollars and be done in a few minutes. This new patch will make the same people think twice and actually have them to struggle a bit as well. This is how they are kept unique and when I achieve to get a great wep, I know that even if I poured months to get it, some random guy pouring cash will have to struggle at least a bit to get the same result.
The game needs even more balancing and adjusting and i'm fine in pointing that out (see the top 5 list thread), but honestlyy the game was just too cheap. I have allready spent most of the bought energy and might buy some more maybe next month. Before I had no reason, everything was easy to get. People were exploiting the game system and earn lots of crowns. Now tell me what if everyone did the same? Imagine everyone just jelly running all the time, aquaring jelly gems and buying jelly equips to earn crowns. Why would anyway pay money? Yeah exactly, they wouldn't, except if they sucked(they would probably still find out eventually) or if they saw the game as some sort of charity.
I mean it's really awesome of you guys supporting this game with your cash, but have you thought about it not being enough? They need more, these guys earn more.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 18:12
#226
"Real life analogies don't
"Real life analogies don't work"
a·nal·o·gy/əˈnaləjē/Noun
1. A comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
2. A correspondence or partial similarity.
Please understand the concept of an analogy; it is perhaps a good thing they removed it from the SAT's or else I would fear for you. Also please don't assume that getting money in real life is a hassle (not for everyone) and that the patch was to increase the challenge of this game (increasing the grind not a challenge. It is a hassle). Also don't assume that people like challenges in their games, who do you think I used to sell Vog sets to? Certainly not people who wanted the challenge of making it. Tell you what, lets just not assume from here on out.
Unfortunately for OOO the business model in which they have set their game up lends itself to the rich guy buying my vog set scenario. What I don't understand is how this is effecting your play. If you like the challenge to get to 5*, and you get to 5*, that is for your enjoyment. Why does it matter to you that this other guy bought his items with real cash? What you make me think is that you want others to recognize how awesome you are with your 5* because you worked for it. These are what Almirian Seal armor pieces and weapons are for.
Your 6th paragraph is the EXACT reason why they patched the game, and you have just argued that OOO decided to follow in Activision's footsteps instead of Valve's and for this, I thank you. That was my point. The game is not a charity but there is a difference between a greedy developer and a good developer. I can only hope this budding studio will follow the right path, but indications are not so.
If they need more cash, the way is not to squeeze more out of current players with inane tactics as had occured. You come out with good content, more content, thoughtful content, all while appeasing the core fan base and attracting new players.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 18:31
#227
@Jaouad: Hypocritical.
You contradict yourself on several points. You say you found it unfair that people spent real money to buy gear when YOU had to work hard for it. Now that everything costs more Crystal Energy, YOU YOURSELF are spending real money when you hadn't before. The only thing the patch did was raise that threshold of CE costs to encompass lesser items. But you know what, Jaouad? There are F2P players out there with less money than you who probably find it unfair that YOU are buying items now, even though they're weaker ones than before.
"I see where you guys are coming from but it didn't affect me in any way."
This is the real issue. You couldn't relate with the players buying money and supporting the game when YOU would grind to the items you wanted, and so you bashed those paying players. Now that things have changed and you do need CE to make the items you want, you're paying just like those you were criminalizing. Yet since you weren't in the position to get screwed over by the changes, you still defend them.
But the fact is, these prices could increase again at any given moment. They've showed us that they have no qualms about doing so, and thus far they've given us no reason to believe otherwise. Since it's obvious that you yourself are what you accuse others of being (a complainer who is being selfish), I don't see why I should consider your opinion valid. You haven't lost anything substantial yet, all of your choices were fair and left unaltered by the dev team.
If you're really reading the forums then you know by now that Three Rings could have just as easily made sets of 6* items to be rare and cost more energy, or made more rare-drop items, change the rarity of certain recipes, etc. to accomplish the same thing. This wouldn't have cheated anyone and it would still have given players reason to spend more Crystal Energy, thereby giving the company more real money.
That's the difference between the Auction House patch and the Flourish patch:
The Flourish patch added new items to the game, and gave the players incentive to purchase Crystal Energy (the costume hats). Since players wanted the new weapons, they spent crowns and Crystal Energy buying the recipes and forging them. Every bit of Crystal Energy spent means that Three Rings is making money. No matter how greedy the company is or isn't, THESE kinds of changes give them the cash without taking a single thing from the players that they didn't willingly give. These changes WORK and keep EVERYONE HAPPY.
The Auction House patch was completely the opposite: Instead of giving the players new reasons to use Crystal Energy, it merely raised the costs of everything that already existed to the point where we'd HAVE to pay them more to get things done. The Auction House was the only real addition to the game this patch, but even it was just a way of taking a small part of every player transaction, eliminating more crowns so that players would have to shell out cash faster. Sure, this is worth it compared to the hassle of dealing with trade chat, but it is far from a significant gift to the players now that they've made everything this costly. And their solution does the same thing: Unbinding for a fee adds nothing to the game, it just charges us for something that was previously free.
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 18:27
#228
@Eshajori
THAT
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:01
#229
Jaouad: I have a steady
Jaouad: I have a steady paycheck and I'd like to put in 10 bucks a month for CE.
Sadly, with the new patch, all it told me that my 10 bucks was insufficient and to craft my stuff, and the company wanted me to fork out 3-5 bucks to craft one item. (Mild exagerration, it's 75 cents to craft one piece of 3-Star Gear, 2 bucks for a piece of 4-star gear, and probably 3 bucks for a piece of 5-star gear. In USD.)
While I've made the connection from day 1 that I'll have to pay money to play the game longer, this update really blew it for me.
And I don't want to craft 5-star gear to sell. I'd like to craft my own gear and the new costs are making me reconsider my monthly 10 bucks contributions to Ian's paycheck.
I am seeing all these changes in a positive light, but the CE increase was the straw that broke the camel's back. And until someone important explains the need to increase the Energy cost for crafting items as opposed to increasing material costs OR Crown costs, I cannot in good conscience purchase CE.
Does Three Rings seriously want me to stay in Haven and craft Haze Bombs and Hot Edges to buy CE with Crowns for the forseeable future? I'd like to do multiple Jelly King Runs without worrying about Mist Energy and NOT play with the AH.
(Implication: I suck at Spiral Knights and need all that CE while I up my game)
Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:35
#230
I still think you guys are
I still think you guys are selfish for only thinking about yourselves rather than 3 rings. 3 rings, the developers do not come off as greedy devs like at all. I think they were not earning enough with the "charity" money alone. It pisses me off how you guys keep on complaining while not considering to think about their reasons.
Have you guys considered that they may not have been earning enough(CE increase)? Have you guys considered that the exploits would soon not bring them cash at all(adjustments in bindings)?
Seriously guys. For one moment just be happy that these guys made an original morpg that is different from any other point and click mmo. This is the reason why I keep saying, just go if your upset, because you guys fell in love with a game that may have been perfect for you, but it may not have been for the devs.
One thing is clear though, you guys are in a small minority. In the game itself, it's fuller than ever and people are still enjoying the game. I'm discussing about the patch every day but everyone seems to be just fine with it. I still craft weps for my guild members and share the costs with them. It all takes a little more time but as i have said earlier, and you guys just don't wanna stop the selfishness, consider that in general this patch will only encourage more expansions in the future.
And I also want to comment on the rich people getting what they want faster and how I shouldn't care about that. It's not about that, it's about the idea that even I could do it. I would have issues with any game offering me something like that. It would feel like i'm not playing the game properly, as if I got a button on my controller that says "easy way out". I mean just imagine if any game had the option to pay and become powerful. I am sure people would take advantage of it, but I take the devs apreciate gaming more than just that, they want people to play games how they should be played. Now even if you pay, you have to think about how you spend your money, but also earn some of the more rare stuff. Money does buy stuff "to an extent" now. There is no full completion in a week possible unless you are literally rich. And even then there is stuff that are unsellable, which is awesome and I can't wait to be able to get them, feel the sense of achievement and feel proud about it.
As Nick described in his first post, I think you and some others may have apreciated the "holes" in the game, but in the end they were holes and if you're not gonna accept the devs vision of what the game should've actually been then yeah. Adios
The game is filled with more players than before, no doubt about it. CE has also become alot cheaper since the auction house.
Edit: @above post, you're acting as if earning CE and crowns is impossible. What about selling items and materials at auction house and Jelly runs beside the 10 dollar per month. You are not seeing this in a positive light at all. I just got a set of 4 stars and I am allready looking forward to get my first 5 star equip. Might put 10 dollar on the next paycheck as well.
Jelly runs make lots of profit.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 02:39
#231
@Jaouad
I think OOO doesn't profit from this change.
You also asume the game would not continually cycle new players in for old ones. ???
I'm happy about the game and will be playing it F2P.
You are making extremely bold assumptions with "you are in the minority I am right". The community response so far suggests otherwise. And the game is not fuller than ever.
Good job explaining why increased price is a good thing because it makes people think. Are you trying to make a point with that? OOO isn't a grade school.
And stop trying to make a point with calling selling unbound items a "hole". While it truly was designed badly, it's not supporting any point you try to make. It's called ad hominem ("you benefited therefore your point is invalid"). I think it's a fair design descision to make em bound.
Next line again with the baseless assumptions.
Conclusion: You aren't contributing to this dialgue. And I think you're also not thinking about OOO enough.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 01:44
#232
@Jaouad: You are so redundant.
"It pisses me off how you guys keep on complaining while not considering to think about their reasons."
It's clear you're barely reading any of our posts, or at least ignoring the parts of them that aren't convenient to your argument. We've DIRECTLY ADDRESSED their reasons, why they are excuses, and what they could have done to accomplish exactly the same thing without betraying their players. We've clearly considered their reasons far more than you have. And what "holes" are you referring to? Do you even know what an exploit is? Cause there are no exploits involved in this topic.
Every game DOES have an option to pay and easily become powerful. It's called Ebay. People do it in every MMO, but then they suck because they end up in end-game and don't know how to play. And you know what? Those players don't ruin the game by splooging their money. They miss out on all the content getting there, and have little left to see. In Spiral Knights they give you the option right upfront so that they can cash-in on it. It's not like buying CE instantly gets you the gear. You still need the materials, and if nothing else, you need to level items up, which takes many runs. That's not the point though:
"It's not about that, it's about the idea that even I could do it. I would have issues with any game offering me something like that."
...What?! But... THIS GAME offered you that from the very beginning! You do realize Three Rings WANTS it this way, right? This isn't some sick plot thought up by evil, "rich" players, unbeknown to the dev team who innocently added a "Buy Energy" button so that people could donate and then sit on it. Make no mistake, they LOVE it when people are buying into high-end gear. The change merely let them make MORE money off of it. You're in denial.
You are aware that ALL Crystal Energy in Spiral Knights came from REAL MONEY that a player used to purchase it, right? Every drop. The energy you so admirably buy in-game is sold by other players - it wouldn't be there if no one was using real money to buy it. It's non-renewable. So, Mr Ideology, you really need to quit trash-talking those people. If they weren't around, no one would be making anything above 2* gear. Ever.
You keep accusing us of being broken records on this topic, yet each of your posts say essentially the exact same thing, with the exact same argument, despite it being deflated each time. You don't bring up new points, you just keep repeating the same thing no matter what is said. You close your eyes to the parts of our posts that make your argument shoddy, yet you contradict yourself at every turn.
"One thing is clear though, you guys are in a small minority"
... *facepalm* You're not worth responding to anymore. The very fact that someone like you represents the minority of players that defend this patch... it argues itself.
PS: "CE has also become alot cheaper since the auction house"
Crystal Energy has become cheaper because less people have been buying it. It was rising at the games peak due to demand. More players consider it a waste of money now. I'd like to say it will run out eventually (it could in theory) to teach you a lesson. But I doubt it will.
Also: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at...
Alots are sensitive about their feelings. Don't call them cheap.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 02:49
#233
@Eshajori
Perfect. Could not have said it any better myself. You also get bonus points, Eshajori, for reading hyperbole and a half.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 03:56
#234
How am I just realising this?
When they first made the update, when I read the developer's response. I thought it was a good thing.
My initial reaction was that they had taken out what was technically powerleveling in this game, due to the nature of Crystal Energy.
But all it did was take out the middle man.
I thought the update was meant to make it impossible for people to buy their way into Tier 3, but all it's done is make it more expensive.
Sure, the availability of Sealed Sword and Antigua line weapons is cut. But that doesn't stop them from buying their way into Tier 3 with just about any other item in the game.
And because of the Auction House, all of the requirements for crafting are in one place for you to pay exorbitant price tags for.
For that, I consider this update a complete failure, in terms of the goals it was attempting to achieve and for the proposed 'fixes' to placate everybody (allowing people to 'unbind items' at a cost).
It didn't halt it altogether, it just went and said: We don't like you people trading rare items for such small sums of money.
We want you to pay more for them.
And it's there in the dev response, just sugar coated, put in a different context.
It screwed people around for nothing.
It was totally pointless.
And for what it's worth, it's not as if this is something we haven't said in the past.
Limiting the trade of items just shifts the focus to the trade of recipes and materials instead.
I've said it before, numerous times, as have other people.
These aren't ramifications they couldn't have considered.
They had to have known.
And that's what pisses me off the most.
That this change of circumstances was deliberately planned to change the focus of items and crafting and make it cost more money.
It's either that or they are complete idiots.
Either way, the only people that lose are the players.
So maybe you should consider that before you try and tell people this was a good update.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 05:20
#235
@Eshajori Yeah and now it's
@Eshajori
Yeah and now it's more expensive and people have to think twice before they mindlesly spend everything. There's a long way in balancing the system and getting the items to become rarer. There will have to be even more changes for that, but for the CE cost I still think you just need to let it go. You're being mad for no reason. No go play and enjoy the friggin game.
With the unbind shop coming i'm sure expenses will become even bigger but hey, just like you said, the same people that buy energy are what keep the market going, and it has been pretty solid lately :)
About the point where paying is easy way out. You have a point there and they might wanna balance it even a bit more and make items even more rarer. Hehehe you must not like that dontcha, well that sucks for you man. I think honestly you should be happy that you've been able to take advantage of the cheap prices before. Now do us a favor and stop whining.
@ShoeBox
You're making some good points but don't you think that is like the whole point of it. The weps have become more expensive because they have become rarer. If something's expensive in real life you don't go and shout at the seller telling him it's stupid, you just simply don't buy it no? Well don't and there may be those who will and maybe you'll be able to earn yourself some CE and crowns from the game itself with time.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 05:36
#236
Derp derp derp derp
Yeah and now it's more expensive and people have to think twice before they mindlesly spend everything.
Except people who are legitimately playing are now paying the same amount as people who just buy everything from the Auction House.
That's why costs for stuff on the AH are so massive, this update just served to increase the cost and ease of availability of items to players with real life money to spend on this game.
They probably did this because the money they got from their test run 'Rose Regalia' offer wasn't enough to placate investors.
I think honestly you should be happy that you've been able to take advantage of the cheap prices before.
How can anybody take advantage of a situation they're unaware of?
That's like saying, "you should be happy you took advantage of that money before your wife divorced you and took it all".
The weps have become more expensive because they have become rarer.
They didn't become rarer, just more expensive. Derp.
Except for Sealed Swords and Antiguas, which you now need to grind for.
If something's expensive in real life you don't go and shout at the seller telling him it's stupid, you just simply don't buy it no?
1. That's why people are protesting
2. There is only one game called Spiral Knights. Can't take our business to another Spiral Knights, can we?
And the people this update screwed over can't get a refund either, especially if they want to quit.
maybe you'll be able to earn yourself some CE and crowns from the game itself with time.
I have CE. Probably more than you.
That has nothing to do with all the things that are fundamentally wrong with this game and the update.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 05:41
#237
@Jaouad
"Yeah and now it's more expensive and people have to think twice before they mindlesly spend everything."
there's still the flaw in this point, that the game is not advertized at grade schools as educational title. So it holds no economic value for OOO, nor does it benefit the players.
Till you reason that out, please don't reuse that point.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:04
#238
"I have CE. Probably more
"I have CE. Probably more than you.
That has nothing to do with all the things that are fundamentally wrong with this game and the update."
So what are you whining for?
Play and enjoy the friggin game fgs.
Protesting for what? Cheap prices again? Tell me, what if they're now making more money because of the change, shouldn't that be a good thing? What if a rollback would cause them to get less again? You know Shoe, some people actually play a game for a sense of accomplishment, and while money does buy alot, the update still manages to make things alot less easy. Before you'd be able to do everything with one money transition. You still can now but it'll only become rarer the more people do as the bindings will prevent weps and equips to be common, You're still capable of getting what you want but it'll be either more expensive or require you to actually search for the recipe's and the recipe's before, and some don't seem to like that. That is why I think some are just being selfish, cuz they are only thinking about theirselves and complain while others just simply enjoy the game and the challenge.
I just got a 4* set which I think kinda sucks. I don't feel bad about it, because I know this will only increase the lifespan of the game for me in trying to get some more 4* equips. It'll maybe take me months(because I now decided to pay at least 5/10 dollar P/m) but it won't feel like everything is easily reachable but instead more rare. If I see a wep from someone that looks great, I know the guy struggled a bit for it and i'll be able to do the same when I get my stuff.
@Tivvv,
Eleborate please and I might understand you
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:15
#239
Darwin's Law can't catch all of them.
So what are you whining for?
What are you being a dick for?
This update was designed to do something and it didn't do it.
It just made it more expensive to do.
I don't even play the game any more because I've been playing it for so long.
There's not any content in the game I want to even experience.
And instead of adding content for us to play around in, they add an update that makes it more expensive to play.
Protesting for what? Cheap prices again? Tell me, what if they're now making more money because of the change, shouldn't that be a good thing?
It's a good thing for Three Rings.
Not the players.
We are once again, negligently receiving a half-update that will cost us more money to play.
I would've rather waited another six months for this game to be released than be subject to constant game changing updates that are only half finished upon implementation.
You know Shoe, some people actually play a game for a sense of accomplishment, and while money does buy alot, the update still manages to make things alot less easy.
Yes, for legitimate players.
It's like you can't even read.
PS: Some people don't consider grinding an accomplishment.
Before you'd be able to do everything with one money transition. You still can now but it'll only become rarer the more people do as the bindings will prevent weps and equips to be common, You're still capable of getting what you want but it'll be either more expensive or require you to actually search for the recipe's and the recipe's before, and you don't seem to like that.
It's all on the Auction House.
Do you read posts?
There's only two items not subject to this. They made it so it costs more money to farm for them as well.
This is purely an exercise in profit making.
I just got a 4* set which I think kinda sucks. I don't feel bad about it, because I know this will only increase the lifespan of the game for me in trying to get some more 4* equips.
Your masochistic tendencies aren't any concern of mine.
That's all I have to say to you.
At least until you learn to read.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:31
#240
Well english isn't really my
Well english isn't really my main language but I try my best ;).
So what if it was simply TOO cheap before and it was simply a mistake in calculation (of earnings and etc).
What if the game had been like this from the start, would you and others be whining then?
Sorry to anyone I disagree with, when I read the OP, it made perfect sense to me. I don't know what's preventing ya'll from understanding their stance but i think it'll take a month before you guys are over it.
The thing what I don't understand is, while you may dislike the change, you guys don't show understanding at all. I've met plenty of guys who think the update sucks "for them", but they do not complain and are more laid back thinking, it's just how it is.
Honestly i'd be with you if they would double the prices again, but as of now it feels rather balanced and probably more profitable for them.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:32
#241
What if the game had been
What if the game had been like this from the start, would you and others be whining then?
If the game was like this from the start, it would've been changed over the course of the almost 6 month long beta.
Probably turning into something, y'know, good.
I mean the energy system alone turns people off the game.
This is just the latticed crust on that delicious pie in the face.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:45
#242
@Jaouad
"Yeah and now it's more expensive and people have to think twice before they mindlesly spend everything. "
I referred to that point. You say it like it's relevant to your point, but it's clearly not leading up to anything and generally would be obstructive to OOOs profit. It's not even logical in itself. Because it's more expensive people can't spend mindlessly anymore?
"Protesting for what? Cheap prices again?"
Personally, I play the game for what it has to offer. Right now that's logging on, playing with my guildmates a bit, logging off. No content or activity besides that available. No loot (removed by this patch), no market (removed by this patch), barely any variety.
I'd rather have OOO do business longer to enjoy some new content, but as I see it they just don't offer what it takes to have people spend anymore.
edit:
"So what if it was simply TOO cheap before and it was simply a mistake in calculation (of earnings and etc)."
They would normally increase the price for CE then, right?
"What if the game had been like this from the start, would you and others be whining then?"
I would have stopped playing heavily, earlier, because I'd experience all content faster. I don't need as many 5* items as I got, I just picked em up along the way. I play when it's fun, if it's not, then I consider it a grind. I just don't enjoy grinding (currently).
Under that light, okay, the game just got longer for people who enjoy grind.
I don't see what's so difficult about this to understand and why the Dev response doesn't address it at all.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:56
#243
Ok that's it. *cracks
Ok that's it. *cracks knuckles*
1. @Jaouad I am HIGHLY offended that you used a homophobic slur/word in order to put someone down and make a point. It's people like you that I HATE, and I wish I could smash your testicles because you CLEARLY don't need them otherwise you would stop the use of homophobic slurs and words. OOOOH you really got me steamed.... I also wish to forthput my vote to ban permanently anyone that does this. They might not of caught it but I sure as heck did.
2. You are such a moron, are you even reading these posts?? I don't think you are or you got your head stuck so far up in the clouds it's never coming it.
3. @shoebox Welcome to the light. I seen your post. Now you understand us and why we are upset and angry...
@All you others who are putting up with the hopeless fanbois/trolls/and idiots in this thread. Thank you.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 07:06
#244
fgs = For God's Sake.
At
fgs = For God's Sake.
At least that is what I assume he meant.
Welcome to the light. I seen your post. Now you understand us and why we are upset and angry...
I'll never understand why you're upset and angry.
There seemed to be points I came to that nobody else brought up in this thread which is why I felt the need to express them.
One way or the other I don't particularly care.
Games with nice texture art and decent gameplay will exist with or without Spiral Knights, I just rarely stick with games as long as I have with Spiral Knights.
That's the only reason I'm still here.
Because I feel I've invested more than just money into this game.
I want to see it succeed.
That's it.
But if it fails or continues being a CSP game, I don't need to stay here and be treated like a gullible dollar sign.
There are other games that I won't split my time for when they come out.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 07:20
#245
Ehhh I took it as the
Ehhh I took it as the latter.
Anyways, You bascially hit upon it without going into every single little detail of why/how/what and breaking it down little by little. You and I are in teh same boat trust me. In fact If you hit up a few of my threads/posts about the update you will see that. I also did quite a bit of ranting IG. Yah, I'm not a gullible dollar sign either, believe me.
I am happy that you have finally awoken. Neo welcome to The Matrix.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 07:25
#246
@Droganis
CE going down in price is an illusion. The crown price of 100 CE might be slightly lower now, but it's value has dropped significantly more since you need more then twice of it for crafting.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 08:09
#247
hahaha godofskype you made me
hahaha godofskype you made me laugh. Thanks for that (u mad bro)
@others,
I guess time will tell wether OOO finds your complaints legitimate. For me it's all good tbh as long things don't go beyond impossible. Beginners still have a great begin to start, and the middle guys are indeed the ones struggling the most to get to tier 3.
@Tivvv
I find you to be the most reasonable as I like how you've been able to look things from most perspectives. Yeah I like the minimum grind this game has indeed. There is no grinding in level ups and stats. That's the "no grind" what I like about this game. That the game puts more emphasis on the players skill rather than him being level 100 with high stats, killing enemies with ease. There is no such thing in the game and that is how I interpreted the "no grinding".
I want to apologies for being offensive overall with my misunderstandings. I still kinda don't but if OOO ends up finding legitimate complaints and change things, all the good to you.
@Droganis
Missed your post but I am sure from the devs perspective, you hit the nail on the head
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 09:04
#248
Make a game, kill a game
A bit of random thinking: The reason the devs might have to have ever done those terrible changes.
The crafting price increase is actually obvious, and it is not related to making things more expensive or harder to obtain, not even to make money - it's a way to reinforce the CE sinks because of the Auction House release.
There are TONS of CE sinks, yes, however in the end, players would carry CE around and hoard tons of it, because crown had pretty much no value - most items were traded using CE on the bazaar forums or trade chat. With the release of the Auction House, there's an actual reason to hold crowns now, and less of a reason to hoard a billion CE. With this, the market for CE has actually been dropping instead of rising, like normal. (it's actually fluctuating as of now, but compared to the prices pre-update it's a quite a bit cheaper. It will eventually start rising/stabilize again, as players get more used to this system and advance further in the game. However this price rise would happen regardless of this or any update)
The reason they didn't increase the crown or material crafting price instead of energy is pretty much this. If in the current state, CE market is already dropping, you can probably imagine what could happen if they didn't increase the CE sinks.
The permanent bind thing is what relates to wanting to add longevity, challenge or whatever to the game. (although it also adds a lot to the rise on CE sinks) If it didn't completely destroy most of the endgame market, I don't think it'd even be an issue.
There's somewhat of a plausible reasoning behind this update, (even though there are some better options even in this sort of thinking) and it could work out if the correct actions are taken to balance sinks, the auction house and unbind store in the future. However.
The unbind store is apparently going to be in energy only, and it's going to be at ridiculous prices.
This is where everything could go horribly wrong. If a lot of players start doing this, the CE market would likely suffer a major inflation, with massive drawbacks that everyone can imagine. Or, no one will do it because it's too expensive and no one will want to pay for this "premium" thing, and we'll end up in pretty much the same situation as if there was no unbind store.
I'd say it's something we have to wait and see, rather than speculate. The economy of this game is quite unpredictable. But if you guys want to complain, you should complain more about the unbind store being CE only and being so expensive, and the lack of communication. (read below)
---
But there's something else that has been disappointing me greatly in this update.
There's no response from developers to the question we have been asking, and it isn't a matter of waiting anymore. They did answer the why they did this. But not the why they specifically chose this option over all the other possible ones, which is what we actually asked. This lead to great confusion and disappointment, and a lost of trust on the staff.
Honestly, this is one of the major problems with the developers and online games. They simply do not put any effort into communicating what they are actually thinking to the players. They simply do those things and say "we thought it was needed". No information if there will be any changes to the crafting any time soon, either, which leads to even more confusion and disappointment.
The problem in this is that a game can only be remarkable if it is unique. Spiral Knights manages to have unique gameplay, something that isn't really often done in the online/MMO games market. But the way TRD is handling the community and economy isn't any different from what other devs do on general games you see out there. If there isn't some sort of actual communication between players and developers, and if the developers would rather go with their ideas, instead of listening to their players and pleasing them, (or at least doing it like some other games do - continuous change to balancing on those issues until a certain point of agreement between developers and players is reached) this game will just end being just another game in the sea of MMOs and online games available. A game that never reaches a true state of balancing and player satisfaction, and never will, because of either greed or ignorance.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 08:57
#249
Back from lurking/not playing
Back from lurking/not playing for a week to see if the situation has improved. Gonna attempt to make a condensed well thought out post because i havent given up on this game yet. Before i start, please try to be civil to each other on the discussion threads guys, if we want the devs to actually read our arguments instead of skimming over and dismissing as bickering we have to sound like rational people.
A few concerns of mine about the patch:
first relating to Playstyles.
Some people play to work the market and horde money. By nerfing selling premades you significantly decreased their ability to play the game how they like.
Some people play to quickly advance to the max power level. They dont necessarily want to play the game they just want to be the best. These people had a reason to play in buying premades and showing off how uber they were. Now they can no longer do so and may just skip the game altogether as a 'grind'
Some people play to enjoy the grind and work for their gear, this includes me. I got all 5* gear under the old system and I didnt quit from no content i started working on costume sets, alt sets, alt weapons for fun. Now the ce cost of gear has gone up dramatically, i can no longer make all the display items and alternate weapons i wanted without shelling out a bunch more dough, or grinding a ridiculous amount of time to buy with crowns. I was enjoying it because I could do it in a reasonable amount of time, now I cannot.
now related to the CE hike.
This update is unquestionably to make more money for the people who run the game. The total amount of ce needed to level an item to 5* is increased dramatically. Even if you buy the ce with crowns someone had to buy the CE. The devs say this was meant to slow the grind to 5*, however it only does that if a person says 'i will only buy $10 worth of crowns a month' and then slowly gets their gear over the course of months. This is a purely self imposed restriction. If someone wants a set of 5* gear, it still takes the same time to level, a person can run a bunch of dungeons and buy the CE they need to level it all to 5* in the same amount of time as before. It is actually easier now since mats and recipes are available on the AH for easy access, all a person has to do is raise the heat level. The crafting however takes way more CE which comes from cash, always.
tl;dr on the CE hike: All CE comes from cash, It takes the same time but way more CE now to craft high level gear. The game is now making more money from the same gameplay as before (minus all the people who quit).
I'm trying to be rational and objective here and not bitter, but i seriously fail to see how anyone doesnt realize that this patch is a very obvious attempt to make more money.
Probably my biggest concern is the lack of communication beforehand. They clearly knew they were going to make these changes and despite protestations, made zero attempt to soften the blow BEFORE the hammer fell. If everyone knew weeks ago that 5* items would no longer be craftable and sold, we would have stopped learning recipes to craft for others, we would have not been caught with partially leveled items that we dont want, we would have made sure we finished any transactions that were in progress before the update, and finally we would have had time to adjust to the coming changes before they came, removing the feeling of having the rug pulled out from under us.
Combined with the lack of communication with those put-out after the fact, it leaves very little room for hope that things could change for the better. I understand that you told us why you made the changes in gameplay terms, but you did not address the specific concerns of the upset population, nor did you admit that a large part of the reason for the change was to make more money. If you arent going to at least partially roll back these changes to appease the members threatening to quit, could you do me a favor and just say 'hey, we need to make more money, we werent getting enough and we arent going to change it back' so i can just give up and move on ;)
Oh and dont bother mentioning the unbinding system, yes it will allow people to craft unbound items but you made it very clear that you are going to make the cost so high that it will not be lucrative to sell the items, as per the reason for the initial change.
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 09:02
#250
Another one that gets it YAY.
Another one that gets it YAY.
Me too. I've been posting like crazy, but I haven't logged in at all since the patch. I rather miss it.