I think your threat only proved your lack of understand what a closed-beta is, or your lack of expressing your opinion in a normal way.

Would you be complaining if this came after a wipe? Umm I don't think so!!!!!!! You are going to have to go through this procedure after the wipe anyways, so why complain about having to go through Haven and Moorcroft?

I agree with DarthLOL whole heartedly. When it comes to the point where we HAVE to do all the superficial dungeons, it would be nice to have actual parties to join through matchmaking alone. The majority of gates are usually empty unless they have some preplanned gimmick like crimsons and arenas. I didn't have a single party on my first time getting to Moorcroft. This system will keep the players at certain tiers longer, meaning people will have more players to play with pre-emberlight.

This update screws the emberlight players now but what does it matter if there will be an eventual wipe anyways. When actual release comes, the intention of the devs will be more than welcome.

Beside that, reading from another thread, nick said that they want to bring veteran players back to Haven with the newer players. What do you guys think of nerfing 5* gear at level 1 and raising the cap. What I mean is that when a player makes new gear, the weapon will initally be too weak for its own tier, let alone tier 1. That way, the player would have to level the gear through tier 1 up to tier 3 to get to its maximum complete glory. This would also imply a heat reduction when trying to boost using other gear. The lower the level, the less heat gained at lower depths. Just an idea.

I read the original post and skimmed the rest, so excuse me if any of this is redundant, but:

Usually, there's one or two gates that are "good" in terms of heat and treasure to be gained, and the rest kind of fall by the wayside. An example of this is a gate full of battle arenas versus a gate full of wolver dens. It's true that you would have to run all the way through the wolver den gate to get access to the lower levels of it, but why would you even want to?

Further, you forget that we're adjusting to it after becoming third tier players beforehand. Of course it's a hassle for us, but if we'd had to start at the beginning and turn back at Moorcroft repeatedly as we built up our gear profile, the access would come much more organically. Plus, we're looking at an entire complement of new gates for which we must gain clearances, but typically only one or two new ones crop up at a time - far from an uncontrollable number to keep up with (should you even want to after looking at the gate map, see first point).

And lastly, you're definitely overlooking the mercantile connotations here. Say you burn the time and energy to get access everywhere. Now, when you're not busy adventuring, you open lower-tier rooms and invite people down to them, allowing them to bypass the process and play beyond their normal limit. Say you charge a thousand crowns per person. With the current energy market, that pays for your CE expenses pretty quickly, meaning you only lose time - and really, why even complain about that? Skip monsters, leave treasure boxes, bolt for the elevators. Haven to Emberlight in fifteen minutes (your mileage may vary based on gate). You don't get your own lower-tier access for being invited down, so they'll keep coming back for another ride on the depthcoaster.

I made a suggestion regarding these issues http://forums.spiralknights.com/node/881 please read it kaybol as you always tell me when my wording is vague.

@Kaybol
Some people prefer to play through an easier level and sacrifice the chance of greater rewards. Some people don't give it a second thought and just play the levels they enjoy the most. My first point, then, is that you - like everyone - will gravitate towards a particular available gate as a matter of your personal preference. This isn't a chink in the game, this is an unavoidable result of being able to appraise a gate map and select your favorite layout.

My second point was most certainly NOT "we'd be used to it." It was, if you'll look again, that the progression would seem more organic. Getting to Moorcroft when that particular stretch below Haven is worth your while means starting at Moorcroft when it's time, and not having to fight your way down to it again. While it IS true that everyone will eventually find themselves trekking through a new gate with overkill loadouts, the problem is mitigated by the fact that you aren't forced to enter a new gate just because it's new, you can see the gate map and determine if it's a worthwhile endeavor, you can buy a shortcut down if you don't feel like blowing your CE, and if you DO blow your CE you can recoup your losses by selling shortcuts to others.

I'll thank you not to (poorly) paraphrase me further. I think it's fair to say that we can discuss the matter without stuffing words in to one another's mouths.

But I'm NOT saying it's okay, because I'm NOT saying it's crappy. People are blowing this way out of proportion. The original poster UNINSTALLED his game over this.

I've played the game since the update at length and I have never found my fun "restricted." I think what people are railing against, really, is the CE it costs to get to the bottom of a gate on the first trip - not the time it takes to do so (because considering you might make forty or fifty runs during the lifetime of a gate, one trip to through the early levels is pretty insignificant), so maybe we should be railing on CE cost adjustments, and not a reworking of the progression system.

You do know you're posting this after an update which balanced out the heat and crowns pay for every depth? Right now you earn about the same on every depth? The difficulty is still off in my opinion though.

That's odd. Earlier today I went from Haven to Moorcroft, and heat/crows earnings felt just like when I was playing below Emberlight. Some levels did give less than others, but that's more to do with how some levels are incredibly badly balanced in the way of giving nearly no crowns or heat. The only thing that bothered me was that everything was too easy. (you can read up on more details if you like in the other threads where I posted my personal opinion on both topics)

Sorry to say it buuuuut it s still grinding. Yes you gain more heat and some more pocket change money ( i made 3k in 6 or 7 levels in total ) but the main problem stayed the same, main problem being grinding all over again in unsatisfactory and not intertaining levels for each and every gate. I certainly don t have the time and will to grind that much and i m certain I m not the only one. So still i stay with my original claim that introducing passes for every gate is a very bad idea.

Second thing I don t understand is once you get a pass to Moorcroft ( and I presume Emberlight too but as I say I don t have the time or will to grind so i ll be in Emberlight in 2 days i hope) you can t play from Haven anymore so basically tear 1 is closed to me. Is that a bug? I mean i don t know why would enyone implement that feature on purpose ??????? :S ( I hope it s a bug, seriously...)

At the rate i play meaning doing maximum 10 levels per day I ll get to interesting below Emberlight levels just before gate I choose cycles out.... If you see my point all this is very very very limiting for players like me.

And considering levels being more challanging ummm I don t know really I didn t bother to move away from enemies and of course i didn t touch my shield in all 7 levels and I wasn t even close to dying.... so I d say we didn t move much in sence of challange. Pitty, I think those changes are just going wrong way....

also i have all the requiers stuff and 15/15 tokens and i can't pass the wall , i speak to wired nothing... i can't pass the wall , my caracter is bugged... or the game?

Cactuscat222, you are both correct and incorrect: heat and crowns are given 100% to each player instead of being split up, so the effective drop rate of crowns and heat is multiplied by the number of players. As far as your own individual gain, this means you get the same amount, not more or less. Being in a party would allow you to run levels slightly faster, but at the easier lower levels, being in a party makes no noticeable difference.

As far as making up for the loss of materials, materials are the primary reason to dungeon crawl in the first place. 5* and 4* mats, with the occasional 3* mat, are usually the limiting factor in whatever someone wants to make through alchemy (if it's not having a high enough level piece of equipment to upgrade, which usually goes much faster to begin with.) Having less people to split loot up between means more gain, especially since things like sealed swords can drop from boxes.

@Cactuscat222

Don't think something like that is mentioned in game before.

In fact not much about partying is talked about in game at all, but from my experiences you certainly don't gain more heat or crowns in party.

Then it was just a miss-observation on my part. I apologize.

I haven't read the entire thread, and I'm a bit behind on the forums in general, so please forgive me if this has been said.

This change does not functionally bar anyone from anything. It is just an obnoxious hurdle. Example:

I have tier 2 stuff. I have a newbie friend with 0 star items. We play down a gate from Haven to Moorcraft. At Moorcraft, I talk to the warden, and am told that I can pass. My friend is told he cannot pass. He bounces back to Haven. I go through the magical level barrier, ask him what he wants me to buy him from the presumably limited access shops (and trade it to him later) and then hop on the down elevator. I send him an invitation to join my party, and we're both together again playing in tier 2.

So if you're willing to party, and flip out of and into the party at the appropriate point, all you need is one schmuck who has gone through the shallow levels.

That said, artificially forcing players to play in certain areas based on their stats is always going to be obnoxious. Either the current case remains, and there isn't actually a boundary, or you can't play with friends. If the goal is to get everyone to play from Haven every time, then playing from Haven needs to be as fun as playing at core depth. If Haven is fun, people will go there.

Here's what makes Haven less fun than The Core:
1. You've been there before. You've seen the monsters before and you've played the levels before. Many times.
2. It's at the beginning of the story. It's good to feel like you're making progress, and the storyline defines the Core as the end goal. Have is as far as you can get from the Core, so going back there all the time is like running in circles.
3. Anyone can get there with zero effort. There's a button that will always take you to Haven for free. Bragging rights = 0.
4. There's no suspense. You know that you aren't going to die with 5 star gear in Tier 1, unless you really try hard. The danger meter doesn't even register any danger.

How to make Haven nearly as fun as The Core:
1. Add new places you haven't been at surface level. Maybe it's just a visual thing. Maybe there are regions that sell different costumes. Maybe there are regions that sell discounted items, or crafting materials for those who have traveled through many shallow levels. Or maybe Haven just changes over time as the clockworks cycle in a visible way. There should also be a greater variety of monsters in the shallow levels if we're all going to be spending a lot of time there.
2. The plot needs to define the end goal as "Getting to The Core from Haven in a single day". For some reason, Knights can't survive for very long down in the clockworks, so if they want to find out what is in the Core, they have to do it in one quick motion rather than over the course of weeks.
3. Visible armor and equipment is a reasonably good way to brag. Maybe a visible max-depth stat, or special titles or achievements or trophies would help.
4. If there's no suspense anyway, you may as well give people the option of skipping the level.

I still don't get it... why make everyone play through Haven-Moorcroft-Emberlight...? I can't get my head around it. And I haven't seen any convincing statement from OOO about it. This has nothing to do with keeping new players from learning by dying and it doesn't encourage any experienced player to party up with new players.

Skaf sums it all up pretty well up there.

Perhaps add Danger Rooms that are accessible only to people with gear that's overpowered for the level (read: when the threat level is very low for the regular content)? And I do mean add dangerous content on every level.

I've spent most of my weekend going through Haven/Moorcroft on two gates, trying to reach Emberlight+ content. There is no chance monsters will kill me there. Sure if you pick a gate with lots of arenas the payout/heat will be good enough, but that was all the satisfaction I got. We won the third arena fight everytime without breaking a sweat. Like this, it's gonna get very old very soon...

So... why??

Just chiming in here to add my 2 cents, which is basically what everyone else is saying. This update does not make any sense to me. Even if I were coming in as a new player it would not make sense to me. Making us play through every level of every gate to unlock higher level content just *feels* like a way to force us to burn through energy and encourage us to buy CE...which it will not do, whether that's its intention or not. At least not for me. I'm not going to waste real money to play boring content over and over just so I can get to a level that's not boring. And the time it takes to do all the early levels of every gate is boring and tedious. I was already frustrated with the time commitment required to actually make progress, b/c some of the gates can be time consuming, but this makes it simply not worth the effort. I've played less than half as much since the update as I did before, and find myself logging on, sitting there, and trying to convince myself it's really worth bothering to go down a gate...and usually failing.