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Changing armor values to make specialized armors more exclusive

14 replies [Last post]
Fri, 08/23/2013 - 03:09
Helioflamee

Overview: This is a suggestion to change armor values to make specialized armors more exclusive while making other armors more useful. This will create a new way to produce diversity/teamwork in the game.

8/25/13 EDIT: changed overview and title to better convey idea

Note: The changes to the armor's protection will require all projectiles and other long ranged attacks in the game to be pure shadow, pierce, or elemental (maybe until tier 3) while all close range attacks to be normal.

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A. Protection

1. Gunners: all gunslinger armors will have pure or hybrid defense (no normal)

2. Swordsmen: all swordsmen armors will always have high pure normal defense

3. Bombers: bombing armors will always have a hybrid normal defense.

4. All Others: armors may have pure or hybrid defense
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B. Reasoning for distribution of defenses

1. Gunners: the non-normal defenses encourage gunners to stay far away while feeling comfortable taking hits from a distance.

2. Swordsmen: the armors of swordsmen have pure normal defense to encourage them to fight close range battles.

3. Bombers: A pure bomber has more difficulty shielding quickly and mounting an attack. Bombers always have a hybrid normal defense to be able to more easily support a team.

4. All others: they have no defined role so the defense isn't defined by it.

Note: some monsters would have to be balanced to further reflect the roles.
For example, less bullet dodging from devilites and more aggressive from far away; less frequent attacks and more running away when in close range.

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C. Bonuses/Penalties: 

1. Specialized: specialized armors will have a bonus that corresponds to a certain weapon class.
        Each piece will have a med speed, charge, and power penalty when using any other weapon. 
 
2. Neutral: will not have a penalty or bonus when using any weapon but values will cap at very high. 

3. Family Specific: will have a weapon bonus to a certain family but will have an equal penalty to another. 

4. All in One (ex: Chaos Set): will have no weapon penalty but will have severe defensive penalties (not just statuses).

Note: there are armors that have a mixture of the bonuses. In those cases, they will have a certain defensive, family specific penalty, and/or class specific penalty to counter the bonuses.

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D. Reasoning for some of the Bonuses/Penalties

1. Specialized: The armors have bonuses to one weapon and penalties to all others to encourage specialized loadouts.

2. Neutral: these have no penalty because they're supposed to be more flexible. The values cap at very high to still encourage the use of specialized armors.

3. Family Specific: these armors don't have a cap to values but still have a high penalty against another family to avoid making this into the “neutral” set.

Note: At the moment, I cant think of another way to balance the family armors properly so I would like extra help for these ones (they're so underused already)

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Some aspects of this concept may have been posted somewhere in the forums but it's too much work to find them in pieces if they exist (tell me if they do though).

Thank You If You Read All Of This
Constructive Criticism Is Always Appreciated!

Fri, 08/23/2013 - 03:20
#1
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
nope.

we don't need classes in this game. one of the very good things of this game is that with the right set of weapons and armor you can counter any enemy, and that you are not compelled to take a specific set to use certain weapons or fighting styles. diversity is good, but diversification is not.

Fri, 08/23/2013 - 03:58
#2
Helioflamee
That's the thing

That's the thing.

1. A lot of sets in this game aren't being used often. There isn't a lot of diversity.

2. This would create more teamwork. Lots of people that would like more of that instead of handling everything on your own.

3. A lot of enemies would still be very killable with this set up. You still have a lot to work with.

4. We do have classes in a way. Its just less exclusive. Don't like exclusive classes? That's why I mentioned neutral sets. You just wont go full power.

Fri, 08/23/2013 - 09:18
#3
Battlegrinder's picture
Battlegrinder
Pretend I wrote something clever here

1. That's because some sets are all around better, or that said is specialized for one particular role (like dragon scale), and that may change as sprite perks/abilities evolve the metagame and make people reconsider what armor they should or shouldn't use.

2. This game already has teamwork as core part of gameplay, it's just not rigidly enforced by making players only be competent in one area.

3. Unless you homogenize all the monsters so that they can't counter any particular tactic or weapon (bad idea), this is a lie.

4. So we can choose between crippling overspecialization and just plan crippling? Wonderful!

The current armor system is fine. While I personally feel that some balancing is in order, tossing out the whole system and replacing it with something new isn't the answer (Protip: it's never the answer).

Fri, 08/23/2013 - 16:44
#4
Helioflamee
Thanks for Your Opinion

1. The sprites really haven't done much to increase the usage of other armors or making stricter roles for a team. Even with the new perks, people will probably still grab the better sets. The sprites might get the job done in the future but the future is still the future. It doesn't mean I shouldn't post the idea anyway.

2. I never said there wasn't any teamwork. I said it adds more teamwork. This set up would not limit you to one type of weapon unless you really want a lot of power.

3. I never said we had to change them all or absolutely. I said maybe tweaking slight aspects of some monsters. Its not necessary to change them as much as you said for this system. Even if the monsters weren't tweaked, there are many combinations of weapons (specialized or not) that are enough to kill them. It just requires you to rely on others a bit more.

4. Don't make it sound so dramatic. The other of the sets of the game outnumber the really specialized sets (gunslinger, vog). It's just an incentive to use other sets if you really want to have a balanced loadout. I'll say it again, the weapons are still powerful enough. Also, don't forget about the trinkets, uvs, and sprite perks. They have enough to power neutral sets.

Im fully aware that tossing out an established system in one shot is very risky since there could be many unforeseen flaws.
But im not suggesting killing the entire system. Its modifying some of the aspects of the current armor system.
Tier 3 is almost pure damage with mostly physical attacks having half normal. This is just intensifying it a bit more.
The change will most likely have a greater affect on those that rely on specialized sets already. The sets will now just be more exclusive.

Fri, 08/23/2013 - 17:12
#5
Axetime's picture
Axetime
this

Well just the right armor helps. but its like lockdown classes

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 04:24
#6
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

I would rather make half of the people rage with nerfs on wolver/chaos than make everybody rage with those changes.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 05:17
#7
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
I do agree with chaos nerf but

Why does wolver need a nerf? Is it to make the set less popular?

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 06:03
#8
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

practically yes. but I kinda meant nerf swords overall. derp.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 09:13
#9
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
DVS no nerf

I only think those stupid normal/split swords need a nerf to be honest. They also could use some variety...

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 01:28
#10
Helioflamee
Getting the ball rolling

Thanks for the comments.

1. You really can't make a significant change without making some part of the community complain.

2. Yeah, sets do need balancing in the game. This change is nerfing the popular sets (specialized ones) but without pissing people off even more by making their hard earned or bought sets ineffective. Also, it's buffing some of the others by making them more versatile.

3. Even if the OP swords were nerfed (a lot of weapons still need balancing), the specialized sets would still be popular.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 08:31
#11
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
Helio the only set in the

Helio the only set in the game that needs a nerf is the chaos set.
The only reason why wolver is so popular is because A, the game does a bad job exposing the power of bombs to new players and that low level guns are rather weak.
I think we more need to fix how eady it is to get early wolver gear instead of breaking bombers and gunslingers.

Tue, 08/27/2013 - 18:56
#12
Helioflamee
The chaos set does need a

The chaos set does need a nerf. More towards resistances rather than damage.

I don't really believe that's the only reason why people wear it. Wolver is one of the better sets. People would gravitate towards that one anyway.
Lots of people use guns with the wolver anyway.
Also since haze bombs are the most popular bombs, many just get a single bomb with a uv or go half bomber (less likely) rather than waste power on a full bomber set up.

Even if everyone saw all weapons equally, they would still prefer specialized sets. Not a huge incentive to touch neutral sets.
An option is buffing all the sets with a damage or defense bonus (it'll be hard to make all the other sets as effective without making them into clones).
Again, a better option is to limit the power of the specialized sets by making them exclusive, not ineffective.

It might not be restricting the availability of the sets but it is restricting the availability of power.

Tue, 08/27/2013 - 19:22
#13
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
why u hurt bombers more

Why the care are you trying to specialize/nerf the bomber sets? They are already super specialized super baddly. They all provide only elemental defense.

Tue, 08/27/2013 - 21:19
#14
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
Y'know, this thread kinda

Y'know, this thread kinda makes sense. Except for the fact that some players have variances in their classes. For example, I used to be a close-range gunslinger: I'd fire my weapons at point blank and dance around enemies' faces.
Something similar can be said for Swordsman. Some use the charge attack frequently to stay at a distance.

I guess you could make these playstyles more "risky" though by setting the armor to what you've done there.

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