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Can OOO's apparent understanding of sprite perk balance finally maybe carry over to gear?

16 replies [Last post]
Fri, 08/23/2013 - 20:16
Kalaina-Elderfall's picture
Kalaina-Elderfall

Overall I'm pretty happy with the perk balance at level 100 so far - I can imagine situations where I might choose medium ASI on guns, high damage vs gremlins, high poison resist, or six health.

In short, it's been pretty clear to basically everyone for a very long time that a medium bonus to swords/guns/bombs is more useful than a medium bonus versus a single monster family 95+% of the time. It's also almost universally more useful than a single status resist trinket (which has the resist of about one medium UV).

With sprite perks, OOO has shown us that they acknowledge the disparity - we're choosing between medium sword damage, HIGH vs fiend, and HIGH fire resist. Now I can't say for sure how balanced this is, but I can say that it is much, much closer to actual balance than two options where one is more or less obviously superior to the other. Because ideally, balance is being able to say "I really don't know which is better."

Unfortunately, gear stats are still a relic of the days prior to OOO's realization of the balance disparity. Valkyrie, for example, only offers a medium fiend bonus to offset its below-the-norm defensive capabilities - it's kind of like Chaos, except without an offensive bonus that's good enough to bother with. Then you have defensive armor like Grey Feather which is... poor (compare to Vog, their defenses are roughly equivalent if different, and Grey Feather's only asset is its shock resist, which you'd be hard pressed to argue is worth it even if you're delusional and don't believe that offense >>> defense in Spiral Knights). And sadly those two sets are some of the better options from the non-Wolver/Gunslinger/Chaos gear. Don't even get me started on status resist trinkets.

I could go on for a while analyzing armor disparities, but honestly I don't think I need to. The majority of armor in this game is unusably weak by comparison. There's no reason it has to be, and there's no reason it should be. We can look at how perks are now, see that they do, in fact, offer a more balanced selection of bonuses, and apply what we see there to the existing gear to improve it.

On top of all that, the more available gear that is actually worth using, the more fun people will have acquiring and using a variety of gear. People will want to get more of the available items and they will have more fun trying to build good loadouts out of them. The game will feel that much more expansive, and people are likely to stick around longer. Plus, changing a medium vs undead to a high vs undead is a minimal change in terms of dev effort. It might take some playtesting, but honestly we've been doing that in spades for quite a while now. It's something that a lot of us have really wanted for a long time, and it's hard not to justify that it's worth the effort to change it.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 00:14
#1
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Instead of buffing everything ridiculously, nerf the gear that needs iit: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/86137#comment-762920

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 18:49
#2
Kalaina-Elderfall's picture
Kalaina-Elderfall
I actually like the current

I actually like the current gameplay with the highest tiers of gear, and wouldn't really want to see them nerfed. Yes, the end result is that the game is that much easier, but I'd much rather that everything in the game be ridiculously overpowered in different ways. As it stands now, all the gear is too similar - which is sort of the problem. You can fight just fine with Dread Skelly on, but that doesn't mean it offers much that Snarbolax doesn't, and since you CAN fight just fine with anything on, OOO doesn't seem to find it important to fix the disparity.

Besides, OOO cares about not making the community angry, and buffs don't make people angry while nerfs do. With the introduction of perks everyone has already become even more overpowered anyway, so it's pretty obvious that nerfing anything is not on the radar. And at this point, I don't think anyone actually gives OOO enough game-balance credit to nerf anything for the sake of game balance - we need to lobby for the path of least resistance if we have any hope of ever getting any sort of gear balance in this game.

Sat, 08/24/2013 - 21:28
#3
Geosmin's picture
Geosmin

Kinda running off on that tangent, I'd like to see monsters buffed rather than our gear nerfed. The whole difficulty mode selector thingy gives me new hope that they might consider the oft-suggested idea of rolling back some of the more contentious monster nerfs for the optional red difficulty level. I'd sure like that a lot more than just piling on the HP.

I'm playing on red simply because I still have a lot of crafting and heating that I want to do, but otherwise I'd try bumping it down to green and inserting at Emberlight with my Cyclops Cap, maybe Fencing Jacket and either a fitting T1 shield or my Swiftstrike. Sometimes I crave for gameplay where damage means a lot going both ways, so it seems more damaging and combat more ...combat-like, I guess, rather than silly movie fight scene-like.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 04:48
#4
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Kalaina-Elderfall

I actually like the current gameplay with the highest tiers of gear, and wouldn't really want to see them nerfed

You mean you like the fact that only one line of gear (Wolver) is used 80% of the time while all other pieces are pushed to the sidewalk due to unbalanced metagame? Why did you even bother making this thread if you don't care about balance?

As it stands now, all the gear is too similar - which is sort of the problem

And therefore, issuing status resist nerfs would CAUSE gear to become different. Because tell me, what's the obvious difference between Skolver and Royal Jelly? Vog and Salamander? Snarbolax and Skelly? Apart from the fact that the latter looks like they suck? (they don't really, but they are definitely "less optimal")

OOO cares about not making the community angry,

Since when? Remember shards, lockable UVs, and dark retribution? I think a balanced game is more important than pleasing the perpetually whiny minority.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 06:03
#5
Kalaina-Elderfall's picture
Kalaina-Elderfall
You mean you like the fact

Buffs to monster AI is the real difficulty that most of us actually want. On the other hand, you can easily make the argument that Spiral Knights is -supposed- to be easy, and runs are supposed to be a leisurely social experience rather than provide any significant gameplay challenge (OOO's track record of nerfing monsters indicates this perspective). But if they want the game to really be more difficult, only monster AI changes will manage that.

You mean you like the fact that only one line of gear (Wolver) is used 80% of the time while all other pieces are pushed to the sidewalk due to unbalanced metagame? Why did you even bother making this thread if you don't care about balance?

That's not even remotely what I said, how did you manage to make THAT conclusion? I was stating that while the current in-use gear can easily be seen as overpowered, I don't think the game is less fun because of it (which would warrant nerfs). The game is less fun because of a lack of option in choosing between one piece of overpowered gear and another due to the fact that most of the gear in the game isn't overpowered. Obviously, if you're going to be pedantic, in this scenario none of the gear would be overpowered anymore. But the working balance level can be anywhere, and I honestly think it's better higher than lower.

And therefore, issuing status resist nerfs would CAUSE gear to become different. Because tell me, what's the obvious difference between Skolver and Royal Jelly? Vog and Salamander? Snarbolax and Skelly? Apart from the fact that the latter looks like they suck? (they don't really, but they are definitely "less optimal")

Firstly, status resist nerfs wouldn't fix much of anything in terms of what gear people are actually using (especially when you suggest Snarbolax/Shadowsun's status weaknesses being stun or curse... seriously? If you give everything else a relevant status weakness and don't give one to the two premier sets, then that just makes things worse).

Gear needs to be shiny and offer interesting things that other gear doesn't have, and as it stands now that doesn't really happen. Adding status weaknesses just makes the current top tier of gear a little bit less shiny; it really doesn't offer any benefits to the remaining gear except by comparison, and that gear continues to come up short even after the status weakness. So then what, add more status weaknesses?

Since when? Remember shards, lockable UVs, and dark retribution? I think a balanced game is more important than pleasing the perpetually whiny minority.

Every long-term game balance decision OOO has made since I started playing (Oct 2011) has been a buff to something. Shard bombs were not a game balance decision, they were a game design decision. They are perfectly happy making dramatic game-altering changes to their core gameplay (and making people angry in the process), but never to gear for balance reasons. I'm just extrapolating from what OOO has done in the past and what it seems like they might be willing to do. Buffing things looks like it could happen, nerfs do not.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 08:07
#6
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Kalaina-Elderfall

Firstly, status resist nerfs wouldn't fix much of anything in terms of what gear people are actually using [...]
Gear needs to be shiny and offer interesting things that other gear doesn't have

People craft one or two sets of armour and never any more because they have no reason to: their offensive armours cover everything they could possibly need. What I'm suggesting is a simple solution to this problem: make it so that offensive armors DON'T cover everything, and the defensive/family armors have shiny status resistance that the offensive gear doesnt have

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 09:32
#7
Kalaina-Elderfall's picture
Kalaina-Elderfall
It's a bit misguided to state

It's a bit misguided to state that offensive armor covers everything. At least in the absence of UVs. As a gunner, there's no way for me to cover the following damage-status combinations while wearing gun armor:

Piercing/fire, piercing/shock, piercing/poison, piercing/freeze, elemental/poison, shadow/fire, shadow/shock

5 out of 12 combinations are covered by gunslinger gear, 7 are not

A swordie has no way to cover:

Piercing/fire, piercing/shock, piercing/poison, elemental/shock, elemental/poison, elemental/freeze, shadow/fire, shadow/shock

4 out of 12 combinations are covered by sword gear, 8 are not

The reason that people wearing gunner/sword gear can handle any situation the game throws at them is due to the fact that the game is easy, not due to the fact that their gear completely covers every possible scenario the game might throw at them. If you want to use status as the countermeasure to easy game difficulty, then you'll want the actual effects of statuses themselves to be stronger at the no-resistance level and reduced more sharply as resistance increases. Adding arbitrary weaknesses to each of the available sets doesn't really achieve the same result.

In a game where the most defensively-geared player is still a glass cannon (slightly less fragile and significantly less cannon, but still very much a glass cannon), it's hard to use defensive weakness to offset anything unless you make that weakness so extreme that people can't take a hit at all.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 09:46
#8
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

kalaina, if you get chaos you will deal so much damage that resistances are pointless. same for others. offensive armor sets make enemies die before they harm you, and that is why they are preferred.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:08
#9
Kalaina-Elderfall's picture
Kalaina-Elderfall
That's exactly the reason why

That's exactly the reason why nerfing things to have negative status resists is not the answer to gear balance in Spiral Knights.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:33
#10
Onekone's picture
Onekone
It is kinda. What's the point

It is kinda. What's the point in having lower speed and slightly higher defence with Volcanic Plate armor (I doubt Stun resist on armor will really help you fighting Vanaduke), if Vog Cub provides same fire resistance and just slightly lower defence AND on top of all that you get SwordASI:VH?

There so much gear, but so few of them is actually viable choice. Especially SL armor, where Snarbolax and Merc Demo is actually decent choices, and others are not so much

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:39
#11
Kalaina-Elderfall's picture
Kalaina-Elderfall
Yes, there is a huge

Yes, there is a huge disparity in armor quality, that's why I made this thread. But nerfing the top gear is only one approach, and buffing nearly everything else is the other. A status weakness wouldn't be enough of a nerf, and buffs make the game more interesting and are less objectionable anyway, while increasing variety in what gear actually does.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:55
#12
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

problem is, we don't need things to be easier. buffing armor would be pointless with all the monster nerfs we had. besides, it won't change much. offensive armor will still be viable everywhere, so defensive will have only a slight boos in popularity.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 11:28
#13
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
We don't need to buff

We don't need to buff defensive armor or nerf offensive ones (this statment excludes chaos set). We need to buff the AI to better out fight players to make offensive armor more risky. Like having the monsters hide behind cover while the player is out of reach and better attacks to counter the style of "kill before damage is taken".

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 11:46
#14
Kalaina-Elderfall's picture
Kalaina-Elderfall
Just making the AI better

Just making the AI better wouldn't do anything to remedy the fact that armor is horribly unbalanced. Defensive armor isn't particularly much more defensive than offensive armor and wouldn't get any better by comparison. You could take a threefold approach - nerf offensive armor, make the AI stronger, AND make defense more relevent to how much is on your armor, but you'd need all three.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 12:32
#15
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

I think this is upcoming, really. There's a lot of little horribly obvious imbalances in gear, and there was the gear survey about half a year ago. I think sooner or later (most likely later), we'll see some kind of major gear rebalancing patch.

Sun, 08/25/2013 - 13:07
#16
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
I wish they would tell us

I wish they would tell us what armor they may change so we can start colaborating on the changes.

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