Farming wise, it's pretty unwise to not use Combuster because it's the most OP sword in the game and it happens to roflstomp 97% of FSC. Just slap on full Chaos if you don't have any CTR UV and go nuts.

I'm interested on why the title says 'now'. It has always been this way.

The optimal FSC loadout is and always has been one Blitz and one Polaris. You can toss on whatever else you want, but both of those are guns.

I always pure gun in FSC (Blitz/Umbra/Polaris/AP) and there is basically never any notable situation where I'd be better served with a sword. If you care about efficiency and you're actually half-decent with guns, you gun FSC because it's the best option. Most people start from the basis of "swords are best" without realizing that the damage output of guns is entirely comparable when using them correctly. Guns just aren't the "safer, yet less damaging option" when compared to swords that most people seem to think they are.

Only people with 10 years old computers playing over satellite links use Polaris. And noobs.

Zed, I hope you arent serious about the alchemers being OP....if you are....tyen that is pretty dumb. Try taking on a polaris spammer with a storm driver with 280ms ping. If you win, then we'll talk. But for now, that takes the cake for he most idiotic thing I have read

The thread is not a discussion about Lockdown at all; the opening post is clearly about balance in the clockworks. And a skill player alch-switching has the single highest practical dps of anything in the game, and melts absolutely anything you encounter in PvE that isn't capable of dodging or blocking (And still melts most of them). I mean sure an individual alchemer is just a good weapon, but if you don't believe that their flat out broken damage output when weapon switching is abused makes them overpowered, I don't know what to tell you. I suppose you could make the argument the mechanic itself is broken, but it's a semantic distinction.

Also beating a Polaris spammer with nigh on any other gun isn't hard at all, Polaris is a pretty terrible gun for gun-fights due to the slow projectiles, a good gunner will outmanevour you and wreck you with a Storm/Hail Driver. Polaris is certainly imbalanced in Lockdown (Although Lockdown has little semblance of balance to begin with) but beating other gunslingers in a long ranged duel is not a strength of the gun.

Each of the elemental guns has its uses, and Polaris is far and away the winner in FSC. You're frequently in situations where you can hit 5 or 6 zombies at once with each expanded bullet, and there are three of those per clip. Couple that with max damage, which you will always have because you're buffing your Blitz for lulzy Vana kills (right?) and there's no contest between Polaris and Nova in terms of speed in killing zombie clusters. In situations where the zombies aren't clustered and you can't hit a lot of them at once, Blitz is at least as good of an alternative as Nova. These guns also outperform swords when used properly in those respective situations.

Polaris also provides other FSC-specific benefits, primarily easy shoot-past-the-wheel-machines kills, and easy dispatch of the rocket puppy when it's triggered by mistakes or party members who don't know what they're doing.

Basically, Polaris gets a lot of hate because it's easy to use (and easy to use poorly), and alchemers get a lot of love because they have a much higher learning curve. But that doesn't translate to Nova > Polaris, especially when you understand that Polaris has its own learning curve and can be used to great effect in the right places. And the place where it shines the most is FSC.

Not really? Math:

Nova bullets and expanded Polaris bullets deal the same damage. So hitting 5-6 zombies with a Polaris clip is say 16 hits per clip. A Nova charge is thus one enhanced damage charge bullet (x2 damage, and you jam it in properly so that it hits two at once, so the expanded bullet deals 4x a regular shot) and then 12 regular shot bounces because of course all of them bounce twice and hit targets three times each. Total damage from an unrealistically perfect Nova shot is 16, maybe 17 bullets per charge, so that's pretty similar to what Polaris is doing. Even with max CTR, you can fire Polaris clips at least 50% faster than you can fire Nova charges. Meanwhile, Polaris is shoving things further into clusters and making the enemies increasingly easy to kill via collateral damage (and shocking them for further collateral); Nova is not doing that.

Gotta agree with Zeddy, Polaris is mostly for kiting with its
knockback. Nova Driver can kill a group of zombie in one charge, normal shots can also kill them quickly. I wish I have a 5* alchemer because they look fun, but there are so much 3* and 4* I need to get. Always forget to get an alchemer :/

You said it yourself, 16 hits from a nova charge. A Nova does, what, 250 damage? I'm pretty sure 16x250 kills a zombie. Since every shot from an alchemer does AoE damage and are fully capable of hitting 4-6 zombies, that's instant death to the lot of them.

Nova Driver > Polaris

Hell... I'll even go as far as saying Nova Driver with CTR > 2x Polarises (Polarisis? Polari?)

Eh, I kinda see where where you are coming from Zed. But I did notice you are comparing Nova charge to polaris normal shot? Charges are meant to be amazing!

Comparing normal shots, Polaris definitely edges out Nova, especially for smaller groups. The expanded shot dmg is equivalent to nova, plus shock.

For charge, nova is the clear winner, since it one hits everything. All attack modes considered, includng ease of use, polaris wins slightly. Despite Nova's charge, polaris is jist too easy to use comparitively,since you can aim off target and hit, while with nova you have to aim slightly to the right. Finnicky, but largge payoff.

And, speaking from experience, Polaris CAN hit 6 enemies, but they would have to be in a cluster. If you get it right, you could hit 8 or 10 enemies if they are positioned perfectly.

I was comparing Nova charge to normal Polaris shots because that's how you use them.

It's true that Polaris can hit 6 enemies, but can it do so consistently? Your group of 6 zombies have to be spread enough not to also be AoEd by Nova. At the same time, they need to be tightly clustered enough that the shock doesn't make some zombies get pushed back while others don't.

That's a very specific level of spread.

So if you assume that Polaris can't consistently hit more than 3 zombies per bullet (which it can), that your Nova charge hits for 20x the damage of a regular Nova bullet (which it won't), that you're firing Nova as fast as you possibly can while still lining up these perfect shots (which you won't be), that you can't shoot at least six Polaris bullets in the time it takes to shoot one Nova charge (which you can), and that knockback and shock utility don't exist (and they do)... then yes, Nova is a little bit better.

I enjoy unloading an Argent charge into my vortex. And also trying to bust turrets with it.

But seriously - get a Neutralizer

More of my Nova Driver charge shots hit almost every single bounce than my Polaris shots hit 4+ targets at a time. Just because you can't do it with one hand tied behind your back, cross-eyed, and half asleep, doesn't mean it's an impossible feat.

Thats why you (not you personally) shouldnt be that one brain dead moron who brings a Polaris to FSC. Too many of those out there. I only know know like 3 polaris users who I wouldn't label as seriously mentally deficient

@Kalaina-Elderfall That's why i say is minor problem because it can be improved on but the problem will still occurs from time to time. Also, even if you can prevent meatshield, eventually you still need to spend extra bullets to push that leftover at the front.

Moreover, the main concern is the problem of having overall major decreased on team dps unless all your teammates use polaris.

I'd honestly really like to see a single Nova shot one-hit-KO 4+ zombies from full health. Is there a video of that up anywhere?

3 seems to be the max as far as instagib goes. Any more than that will only get pummeled to near-death.

My experiences were pre-elite mode.

So I went and did some testing (FSC Advanced, solo). I can shoot 12 Polaris bullets in the time it takes me to shoot 2 Nova charges, so that's a 6:1 ratio if you fire Nova immediately after it's charged.

In cluster areas (8+ zombies spawned), I average about 1 kill per 3 Polaris bullets. Each Nova charge thus only needs to instakill two zombies on average to keep pace with Polaris DPS. So if the people in this thread are to be believed and they can average three zombie kills per charge whilst firing off charges as fast as possible, then yes, Nova is better. I can believe that any given charge shot will do that, but I won't believe that anyone can -average- that level of damage whilst firing as fast as possible until I see it firsthand. The zombies just don't seem to always be perfectly lined up for amazing alchemer charges to kill them, and if the Nova user is waiting between shots in order to line them up properly then their DPS drops significantly.

In non-cluster areas and also amusingly possibly even in cluster areas, Blitz is the better option for DPS.

Add more party members (does anyone honestly take FSC seriously enough to solo it without being really bored?), and both Polaris and Blitz get better - Polaris because its peak DPS is after things have been pushed up against a wall (or a cluster-jam of other zombies), and Blitz because it still one-shots things no matter how much health they have.

That said, if you guys are as great as you claim, and you think FSC is worth putting forth the sheer concentration required to output that level of DPS with Nova, then by all means enjoy your success. But you have to be utterly amazing with a Nova in order to out-DPS Polaris, and Polaris's knockback utility is enough to tip the scales in its favor among anyone who can't continually output exceptional Nova charges with every single shot.

@Terra Gun switching ups your firing rate significantly, but it won't get up to the levels we're talking about here in regards to zombie clusters. I'm sure it might seem fast against one or two zombies when compared to other options like Brandishes, but it has nothing on Blitz in those situations.

To be honest my experience among gunners is that they gauge their "gunner cred" by how well they can use alchemers. Alchemers are very fun weapons, but it's also true that not every problem is a nail, and not every exhibit of skill produces an optimal result. Moreover, it's sort of a ridiculous pissing contest that tastes a bit too much like Lockdown (i.e. a really horrible community of teenage boys with a testosterone-driven bid to be "respected", and the fanboys who actually stroke their egos).

http://youtu.be/so2sj7a4tCc

@Juances AND you need the bullets to not cause shock

The majority of FSC zombies are best dispatched with Blitz, though, because they aren't in large clusters, and it's pretty easy to kill two zombies with any given Blitz charge if there are indeed two zombies to be killed. Polaris is only useful in specific battle rooms which can be immediately controlled and beaten because you know exactly what's coming with spawns. I am basically never in "oh no my Polaris is not suitable!" situations in FSC because if one of those situations comes up I can switch back to Blitz for non-crowd/cleanup kills. Like everything in Spiral Knights, it's really just not about using your weapons to kill the enemies, it's about using your enemies to pick your weapons.

Admittedly, if you have a vortex along everything dies a lot faster, but that's sort of a separate discussion entirely.

Och aye, this is purely theoretical for the sake of discussion. Personally I find EV+Blitz to be the overall easiest/fastest and more "everywhere-available" method. Although, most of my FSC runs are speedruns anyways, so whatevs.

Actually, Polaris and Nova deal the same damage. Storm Driver deals the same damage as an unexpanded Polaris.

Maybe you were accounting for double hits?