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So, since battlesprites have been released can we work on the balance issues now?

12 replies [Last post]
Thu, 08/29/2013 - 15:25
Etharaes's picture
Etharaes

Since the devs have been working on battle sprites I forgive them for not working on balance. But now they have been released, can we fix some balance inconsistencies? I will try to only list the ones which are not debatable.

Brandish lines and Leviathan Blade
At 5*, the normal swings of the brandish line outdamage (significantly) the normal swings of the calibur vs neutral targets. This should be equalised.
IMO, the damage on the swing of the charge attack for the brandish needs to be toned down too, but this may be debatable.

Sealed Sword lines vs Troika Lines
As far as the normal swings/combo goes, the sealed sword lines directly overshadow the troika lines as the troika lines do less damage altogether and swing slower and benefit less from ASI than the sealed sword lines.

Alchemers and their internal ricochets
Regardless of skill or not, alchemers should not be able to be abused to get internal ricochets and OHKO something (or multiple somethings) with a charge attack.

Pure damage weapons vs Damage + Status weapons
In some cases (needle lines and flourishes), the status inflicting versions of weapons are overshadowed by the pure damage versions, caused by poor status infliction rates and/or weak and/or redundant statuses, i.e. the pure damage versions kill too quickly for the status to be helpful.

Chaos Set vs Mad Bomber
Something needs to be done so that the chaos set does not completely overshadow mad bomber.

Iron Slug vs Supernova (Turret Suppressors)

Supernova has the same damage as Iron Slug, but can fire three shots and doesn't halt your movement. Sure, Iron Slug will do full damage at close range while Super won't, but using Iron Slug at short range is suicide. There is no reason to pick the first over the second.

One of the main 'perks' of the iron slug is how it's bullets can flinch turrets. However, two (expanded) supernova bullets can achieve the same thing in the same time, ignoring the delay of the slow moving bullets.

Also, Supernova can push around and damage a huge crowd of enemies where Iron Slug will sometimes miss a single thing you are hitting directly. That's kind of an issue too.

Shard Bomb vs Blast Bomb

In T2, Shard Bomb shards do close to the damage of Blast Bomb per shard against effective targets. This makes Shards a very viable alternative to Blast Bombs, where you pick Blast for safety and crowd control but shards for flat-out damage.

Due to enemy defence scaling up, and your weapon damage scaling being derp somehow or other, this tradeoff becomes considerably less worth it in T3. Whereas at depth 14 a Super Dark Matter Bomb shard will do 85% the damage of a Super Blast Bomb (60 damage vs 70) against a Jelly, in depth 24 a Deadly Dark Matter Bomb shard will do a mere 75%. (166 vs 217).

This is bigger than it sounds, honestly, especially when you consider that the jump from Super Blast Bomb to Nitronome is an absolutely, preposterously enormous radius increase while shards get two extra shards that do nothing because invincitinks. This isn't a bug report thread though, so I won't get into invincitinks. Shards, not gaining increased coverage and utility, should get the relative damage to blast bombs increased as you get further into the game, not decreased. This is basic balance, folks.

There are other things which are widely considered under-powered or over-powered, but I did not list them as they have no direct counterparts which they can be compared to for balance.

This topic is for the devs; we can debate about what to do with each item and I am willing to add or take away from this list if a valid point arises.

Note: Please do not talk about lockdown, lockdown is a rather minor aspect of Spiral Knights and thus should not be the focal point of gear balance.

~Ethanol

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 16:27
#1
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Iron Slug vs Supernova

Supernova has the same damage as Iron Slug, but can fire three shots and doesn't halt your movement. Sure, Iron Slug will do full damage at close range while Super won't, but using Iron Slug at short range is suicide. There is no reason to pick the first over the second.

Also, Supernova can push around and damage a huge crowd of enemies where Iron Slug will sometimes miss a single thing you are hitting directly. That's kind of an issue too.

Shard Bomb vs Blast Bomb

In T2, Shard Bomb shards do close to the damage of Blast Bomb per shard against effective targets. This makes Shards a very viable alternative to Blast Bombs, where you pick Blast for safety and crowd control but shards for flat-out damage.

Due to enemy defence scaling up, and your weapon damage scaling being derp somehow or other, this tradeoff becomes considerably less worth it in T3. Whereas at depth 14 a Super Dark Matter Bomb shard will do 85% the damage of a Super Blast Bomb (60 damage vs 70) against a Jelly, in depth 24 a Deadly Dark Matter Bomb shard will do a mere 75%. (166 vs 217).

This is bigger than it sounds, honestly, especially when you consider that the jump from Super Blast Bomb to Nitronome is an absolutely, preposterously enormous radius increase while shards get two extra shards that do nothing because invincitinks. This isn't a bug report thread though, so I won't get into invincitinks. Shards, not gaining increased coverage and utility, should get the relative damage to blast bombs increased as you get further into the game, not decreased. This is basic balance, folks.

Don't even get me started on Deadly Shard Bomb. It's like making a normal damage Antigua.

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 17:39
#2
Etharaes's picture
Etharaes
Edited the OP

I updated the OP with Zeddy's ideas, albeit slightly altered.

~Ethanol

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 18:31
#3
Blazzberry's picture
Blazzberry
One step at a time.

Maybe once this gets done they can move on to the next issue. Sprite bugs.

+1 support to this.

Also, anyone know what ever happened to that gear survey?

Thu, 08/29/2013 - 19:42
#4
Batabii's picture
Batabii

1. Calibur isn't SUPPOSED to be good. It's a sword for new players who want to practice with neutral damage and no status. An "all around" weapon until you bother crafting something more specialized.

2. I've never understood the people who say Sudaruska is slower than GF/DA, they always seem identical to me, and indeed they should be. As for the damage, I haven't seen a huge discrepancy either. Especially considering the charge attack.

3. Only if alchemer damage overall gets boosted. Without that internal ricochet, Nova Driver barely seems worth using over AP.

4. damage vs status: I agree. Especially for the Autogun line.

5. chaos vs mad: agreed. Maybe reduce the status equivalent to a "low" uv?

6. Isn't Polaris a superior "turret suppressor" than either of those? And using supernova at close range is even worse than iron slug...regardless, iron slug has its own problems.

7. Yes, shard bombs are pitifully weak, especially because of the totally pointless hit limit in place, not to mention it basically hits HALF the area of a nitronome.

I would also like to add that Sentenza is in need of a serious rework. Either change the damage bonus to Slime, or find some way to make it stronger. Yes, it's more or less identical to AP, but the problem is UNDEAD DON'T SHIELD OR DODGE.

Thwackers, Mortafires, and Menders all have shields that make them a pain to try to hit more than once, and menders and thwackers (the most common ones) dodge constantly, in a way that EVEN IF YOU HIT THEM, they're invincible anyway, at least when I try shooting them. I've distinctly seen a t3 thwacker dodge THROUGH an uncharged biohazard bullet, making the hitsound but dealing NO damage. Not only that, but menders will often heal a single target faster than even sentenza can damage them.

And of course in b4 winmillion+cautery sword

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 00:53
#5
Etharaes's picture
Etharaes
@Batabii

On the point of calibur, yes, it isn't supposed to be good, but it isn't supposed to be bad, it should be average. In Spiral Knights an item's power should not be balanced on how it is acquired. Throughout most of the game this idea is supported; shadow lair armors are no better than others (on paper), and boss rewards are no stronger than not-boss rewards items. Brandish is actually just silly seeing how much damage it does and by how much it outdamages calibur.

The Lancer Knightz data proves that sealed sword is faster than troika: sealed sword does 29 cpm (combos per minute) at 0 asi and 36 at +6 asi, while troika does 26 at 0 asi and 32 at +6 asi.

I do not think that alchemers should get a damage bonus in compensation for the abuse of ricochets being removed; they'd still be great at mauling large groups (which is what they were designed for). I don't want the ricochets REMOVED, just the abuse of the ricochets.

In the case of sentenza, I think the gremlin damage bonus is quite fitting; it's pew pew super fast bullets with a large clip always seems to have been a great counter to the dodgy freak gremlins. Sentenza seems much more fitting than any other gun for taking them down. That said, I do think the antiguas are in need of a bit of a damage boost.

This thread is about trying to provide comparisons for why one weapon is weaker than another and thus why it should be buffed. Winmillion is it's own jar of expired mayonnaise and is (un?)fortunately unique.

~Ethanol

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 03:54
#6
Dust-Dragon's picture
Dust-Dragon
...

As much as I'm all for balancing, Sprites still are a bit.. broken, for Oceania players. Or rather, what appears to be, high-latency players. So I'd rather hope OOO looks into fixing that prior to shifting other stuff around.

Basically, the exact opposite of Blazzerus said.

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 04:05
#7
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

high latency players practically can't use sprites due to lag. they point for 10-15 tiimes and the sprite does nothing. it's not sprites broken, it all the lag's fault. really, I passed those moments too and I refused to play altogheter.

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 04:22
#8
Dust-Dragon's picture
Dust-Dragon
@Thunder-The-Bright

That's.. what I meant by broken.

The network functionality behind the Sprites is, seemingly, poorly done for situations involving high latency. You can't just say "it's the lag's fault", and then say "sprites are fine". If sprites fail to work with lag in an online game, then the sprites have a serious issue.

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 04:51
#9
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

What gets me is that other players can see you point, so the command is obviously getting through to the server.

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 08:46
#10
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
winmillion, stun, and staggerstorm.

Winmillon buff
Currently winmillion is a underpowered bridge between guns and swords that fails at being both of those.
I personally feel it needs a slight over haul. Make the sword projectiles hit multiple times and only break once they hit a wall or reach a distance. I think after the current range of 2 to 3 blocks are reached the projectile "goes ghost" and no longer damages enimies and can only break blocks or switches.
The charge it self primarily needs a longer range to become solid. At least as far as the wrench wand's charge attack.

Staggerstorm and stun buff
Currently both the status stun and the mist bomb for it are considered rather weak and I feel this can be changed easily.
Make stun disable "dodges" like a player's dash and a gremlin's or wolver's jump avoid if the stun is at least moderate.
Give stagger storm moderate stun. Why? Currently every other pvp weapon in some way stronger then it's counter part.

The voltedge has more damage, the electron vortex has shock but no reduced damage and the stagger storm... Has nothing. This is rather unfair as minor stun isn't that useful any way unlike the other statuses.

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 15:51
#11
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

"Currently every other pvp weapon in some way stronger then it's counter part."

Plague Needle would like a word with you.

Also, Voltedge doesn't have any more damage than Combuster? In fact, it's the other way around if you consider both that fire has more damage than shock and that shock doesn't let enemies ride the whole wave.

Electron Vortex has reduced damage compared to Graviton.

And Triglav has freeze on the combo, which by a lot of peope is considered a drawback due to how risky it is.

Fri, 08/30/2013 - 16:12
#12
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
/stop trusting people

/note to self
Never trust people's claims in game.

So, any one going to bring up the nerf for blitz needle?
I was thinking either hit cap on enimies or reduced damage at close range.

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